Undercutting gears?

[Biggles08]

I have a problem with my gearbox after my last race at manfeild. I was finding it difficult to engage 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. I have had the Gearbox stripped and it appears the dog gears that engage each other from 2-3 to 5th have rounded a bit at the edge. After talking to a few people in the know it seems this is a common problem with the 07 ZX6R.

My Questions:
1) who can I talk to who has had experience with undercutting gears that could talk to a machinist mate of mine before he attempts to do it (preferably with this model bike too)?

2) once they have been rounded on the edges, can they be saved by undercutting them or do you NEED to start with new gears?

I have a few ideas of how to fix this but wanted a bit of feedback from you lot :-)

Cheers
Biggles08

[Motu]

Keystone gears were a rough bodge up that is now factory issue.

[speedpro]

I have a friend who has done a few plus made his own gears. Is it really a problem with the gears crapping out on those or is it just yours? Undercutting is good but it does have it's drawbacks as well. It wasn't caused by how you use the box?

[SixPackBack]

How does your machinist mate intend to under cut the gears? being hardened he will be limited to either grinding, spark eroding or wire eroding. Any other method of maching is likely to end in tears....your tears Biggles!

Who can you talk to?.....try Precision engineering in albany, they may not have been involved in undercutting but I know they have a gear hob and get involved with performance gears etc, if they cannot help they will know who can.

HDTboy will also provide guidance having been involved with two smokers ZX6

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

message Jay Lawerance (jay racer or sumthing) on here about it. He MAY have done it to the zx6r. He did do it to the r6.
spark eroding rings a bell. best get the info from the source though aye.

[Biggles08]

How does your machinist mate intend to under cut the gears? being hardened he will be limited to either grinding, spark eroding or wire eroding. Any other method of maching is likely to end in tears....your tears Biggles!

Who can you talk to?.....try Precision engineering in albany, they may not have been involved in undercutting but I know they have a gear hob and get involved with performance gears etc, if they cannot help they will know who can.

HDTboy will also provide guidance having been involved with two smokers ZX6




I have talked to Jay L about it and he has done a couple (or rather had done) of gearboxes. One was done by an air grinder and only a touch was taken off... I know they are hardened and need to be done the right way. I've talked to a few people about it and it seems a fairly cloudy subject actually.

I'm going to buy new dog gears anyway but I would like to have a crack at undercutting the old ones to see if its any better. Apparently it is a commone fault with ZX6R's....as far as my shifting goes I'm giving the gearbox death...but hey, thats racing!:shifty:

[Biggles08]

I have a friend who has done a few plus made his own gears. Is it really a problem with the gears crapping out on those or is it just yours? Undercutting is good but it does have it's drawbacks as well. It wasn't caused by how you use the box?
As per my reply to sixpackback...yes it is because I'm hammering them but I don't see that changing so I need to try something else...I've heard undercutting gets rid of a lot of the problems.

[SixPackBack]

I have talked to Jay L about it and he has done a couple (or rather had done) of gearboxes. One was done by an air grinder and only a touch was taken off... I know they are hardened and need to be done the right way. I've talked to a few people about it and it seems a fairly cloudy subject actually.

I'm going to buy new dog gears anyway but I would like to have a crack at undercutting the old ones to see if its any better. Apparently it is a commone fault with ZX6R's....as far as my shifting goes I'm giving the gearbox death...but hey, thats racing!:shifty:

An air grinder?......what a fooken animal.
Nothing cloudy Biggles, you need only establish three parameters:

The amount of material removal.
The profile of material removal.
Method of material removal.
Do some homework bro.

[Laava]

I had Tjebbe Bruin do 2nd gear for me on me ol' 450 Honda. Is he Precision Eng?

[Deano]

message Jay Lawerance (jay racer or sumthing) on here about it. He MAY have done it to the zx6r. He did do it to the r6.
spark eroding rings a bell. best get the info from the source though aye.

Ditto..................

[SARGE]

How does your machinist mate intend to under cut the gears? being hardened he will be limited to either grinding, spark eroding or wire eroding. Any other method of maching is likely to end in tears....your tears Biggles!


AH Gears in Penrose behind the stadium can do it

[F5 Dave]

An air grinder?......what a fooken animal.. .

I think you'll find that was far away from home base trying to make an ill-conceived roadbike gearbox cope with racing the next day after untold problems. Needs must.

[Ixion]

Keystone gears were a rough bodge up that is now factory issue.

Meh. Keystone gears are for Keystone Kops. Just weld the gear wheel to the shaft. Problem sorted once and for all.

[TripleZee Dyno]

I have a problem with my gearbox after my last race at manfeild. I was finding it difficult to engage 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. I have had the Gearbox stripped and it appears the dog gears that engage each other from 2-3 to 5th have rounded a bit at the edge. After talking to a few people in the know it seems this is a common problem with the 07 ZX6R.

My Questions:
1) who can I talk to who has had experience with undercutting gears that could talk to a machinist mate of mine before he attempts to do it (preferably with this model bike too)?

2) once they have been rounded on the edges, can they be saved by undercutting them or do you NEED to start with new gears?

I have a few ideas of how to fix this but wanted a bit of feedback from you lot :-)

Cheers
Biggles08

My only experience with undercut gears is fitting them.
But generally speaking undercutting is done so that the gears lock into engagement when under load. ie if the trans pops out of gear when you give it a handful, or when you shut the throttle. It can also help with engagement because the undercut "pulls" the dogs into engagement when under load.
Too much undercut and it can make shifting difficult for the same reasons.
I havent seen a ZX6R box but I have repaired a few transmissions over the years and I havent come across a gearbox yet that couldnt be improved or made less worse, with careful assy ie shimming, checking engagments (blueprinting for want of a better word) etc.
Check the stock gearbox and you may find it is already undercut.
If you are having trouble getting into the next gear worn dogs dont help especially if you are powershifting or not using the clutch or generally thrashing it. Basically the dogs end up sliding over each other instead of engaging if the power comes on too quickly. Factorypro shift kit can help here. They work by rotating the shift drum a bit quicker than stock and get the gearchange done quicker.
Whatever you do, you need to start with new dogs.
If its a common problem whats the common solution? or do people just keep chucking parts at it?
Good luck

[R1madness]

I have a problem with my gearbox after my last race at manfeild. I was finding it difficult to engage 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. I have had the Gearbox stripped and it appears the dog gears that engage each other from 2-3 to 5th have rounded a bit at the edge. After talking to a few people in the know it seems this is a common problem with the 07 ZX6R.


Cheers
Biggles08

Did you read the "clutchless gear changes" thread? This is a common problem with every bike thaat has clutchless gear changes on a regular basis.... not just ZX6s.

[sidecar bob]

Boss Engineering in Wanganui do undercutting & are fairly expierienced with bike boxes.

[roadracingoldfart]

An air grinder?......what a fooken animal.
Nothing cloudy Biggles, you need only establish three parameters:

The amount of material removal.
The profile of material removal.
Method of material removal.
Do some homework bro.


I do alot of gear rework and i use a very nice little Air grinder , it spins to a max of 75,000 rpm (variable) and sits in a tool post .

The description "air grinder " im sure conjures up visions of a 1/4 inch collet piece of mahem. But my Ushio is what gear cutters use and its the same size as a felt pen but .

The best gear cutting / making is from Bettany Gears in Paraparaumu. (no im not associated)

Paul.

[SixPackBack]

I do alot of gear rework and i use a very nice little Air grinder , it spins to a max of 75,000 rpm (variable) and sits in a tool post .

The description "air grinder " im sure conjures up visions of a 1/4 inch collet piece of mahem. But my Ushio is what gear cutters use and its the same size as a felt pen but .

The best gear cutting / making is from Bettany Gears in Paraparaumu. (no im not associated)

Paul.

Are you using a tool post together with dividing head?.....do you blue the matching parts afterwards to ensure drive is evenly distributed?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Are you using a tool post together with dividing head?.....do you blue the matching parts afterwards to ensure drive is evenly distributed?


In some cases when the factory gears are in good shape from new (as in the dogs match up pretty close) I've found with a bit of patience and a pencil grinder and some bearing blue you can get a excellent match with out the use of a dividing head. I've only done it once and I probably wont do it again like that but it is possible. Same as scraping bearing surfaces, done by hand, just takes for ever if your really anal about it.

Where do you work SPB?, it sounds like you have some pretty cool machinery there.

[SixPackBack]

In some cases when the factory gears are in good shape from new (as in the dogs match up pretty close) I've found with a bit of patience and a pencil grinder and some bearing blue you can get a excellent match with out the use of a dividing head. I've only done it once and I probably wont do it again like that but it is possible. Same as scraping bearing surfaces, done by hand, just takes for ever if your really anal about it.

Where do you work SPB?, it sounds like you have some pretty cool machinery there.

I run a workshop in Albany. CNC Mill, Lathe, Wire eroder, Surface grinder, tool and cutter grinder, manual mills and lathes etc.....all the toys.
We manufacture prototype and proof of concept electric motors.
Sounds like you understand the basic principles of Precision Engineering Sketchy_Racer, you can get stellar results with the most rudimentary of equipment if you know what you're doing.

[Biggles08]

I run a workshop in Albany. CNC Mill, Lathe, Wire eroder, Surface grinder, tool and cutter grinder, manual mills and lathes etc.....all the toys.
We manufacture prototype and proof of concept electric motors.
Sounds like you understand the basic principles of Precision Engineering Sketchy_Racer, you can get stellar results with the most rudimentary of equipment if you know what you're doing.

Ahhh we're all a box of fluffy ducks now arn't we!:wari:

[roadracingoldfart]

Are you using a tool post together with dividing head?.....do you blue the matching parts afterwards to ensure drive is evenly distributed?




Ive even been known to plastiguage to measure contact lol .
yer ok im anal.<_< :laugh:

Yer either i use a divider head or just free hand , whats needed really.
I have access to a wire cutter eroder (real easy to pattern ) and spark eroder (plunge type) but i just give instructions for them , im not allowed to play with them. They are part of an alloy extrusion machine shop.
The plunger is really good for broken hardened studs , they are a bitch lol.

Glen should know all about this crap , hes more qualified than cowboys like me . He got learned the low pay way , aye Glen lol.

Paul.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Glen should know all about this crap , hes more qualified than cowboys like me . He got learned the low pay way , aye Glen lol.

Paul.

Still learning the low pay way mate! Damned apprenticeships.

I really need to get into a work shop where I will learn more though! We have some really nice gear at the one I'm at the moment, but non of the 'tradesmen' have a clue how to use it properly, and they wont let me on it. (probably due to the fact I'm an apprentice.)

Never mind, almost finished my time, and once I'm done, unless a large sum of coin is offered, I'm outta there!

[SixPackBack]

Still learning the low pay way mate! Damned apprenticeships.

I really need to get into a work shop where I will learn more though! We have some really nice gear at the one I'm at the moment, but non of the 'tradesmen' have a clue how to use it properly, and they wont let me on it. (probably due to the fact I'm an apprentice.)

Never mind, almost finished my time, and once I'm done, unless a large sum of coin is offered, I'm outta there!

WTF...you should have at least attempted to use the workshop machinery-all of it!

What apprenticeship are you completing? I have taught a few apprentices in my time and have become a qualified assessor for CompeteNZ. It sounds like you are being sold short.

[Sketchy_Racer]

WTF...you should have at least attempted to use the workshop machinery-all of it!

What apprenticeship are you completing? I have taught a few apprentices in my time and have become a qualified assessor for CompeteNZ. It sounds like you are being sold short.

I'm doing a Competenz mechanical engineering - machining strand apprenticeship. I was doing the machining - toolmaking one until they realised that the work shop I was at didn't actually do any toolmaking what so ever.

To be fair I do get to use the machines (We have 3 cnc mills and 3 cnc lathes) but apart from the one or two times I got to do tool setup, If I have been on them, it's just been green button pressing for production (yawn). I've just finished doing a 2 week block course primarily about CNC setting and programming and buggered if they will let me do any.
The only times I have done programming was when I got pissed off at something dumb (eg, a rapid point that was 100mm away from the job, so you watch it machine air for the first 100mm before it does a 10mm cut on something) and changed it without asking. All they guys running them have no qualifications.

As I say, I really need to get away from there, but it's hard to find another job to replace that one at the moment.

[SixPackBack]

I'm doing a Competenz mechanical engineering - machining strand apprenticeship. I was doing the machining - toolmaking one until they realised that the work shop I was at didn't actually do any toolmaking what so ever.

To be fair I do get to use the machines (We have 3 cnc mills and 3 cnc lathes) but apart from the one or two times I got to do tool setup, If I have been on them, it's just been green button pressing for production (yawn). I've just finished doing a 2 week block course primarily about CNC setting and programming and buggered if they will let me do any.
The only times I have done programming was when I got pissed off at something dumb (eg, a rapid point that was 100mm away from the job, so you watch it machine air for the first 100mm before it does a 10mm cut on something) and changed it without asking. All they guys running them have no qualifications.

As I say, I really need to get away from there, but it's hard to find another job to replace that one at the moment.


Hang in there. The best thing you can do is get another job when you get out of your time, you would forever be the 'apprentice' if you stayed.

Did you train at Petone Tech?...In my day all the Toolies went there for training, they had superlative facilities.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Hang in there. The best thing you can do is get another job when you get out of your time, you would forever be the 'apprentice' if you stayed.

Did you train at Petone Tech?...In my day all the Toolies went there for training, they had superlative facilities.

Nah they sent me to Auckland (Manukau Institute of Tech) for my course, the rest of my paperwork is correspondence. It was really good. (The course, not Auckland...)

[SixPackBack]

Nah they sent me to Auckland (Manukau Institute of Tech) for my course, the rest of my paperwork is correspondence. It was really good. (The course, not Auckland...)

Our apprentice came back from Manukau complaining bitterly about the courses. How did you find MIT?

[Sketchy_Racer]

What's your apprentice's name, and when did he go? I wonder if we were on the same course (they don't run them very often)

The course had many faults, the biggest one being the complete and utter lack of time to get the paperwork and the practical completed. Second to that was a lack of time on the machines, or lack of machines (people lining up for a grinder or something.)
Also, the paperwork quality is very poor. I failed 5th form english twice and feel I could do a better job on quite a lot of it. The other problem was that it looked like someone with no industry experience wrote the papers, so there were some real odd ball questions in there that shouldn't have been.

The tutors were out numbered for the amount of students, but the ones I had were very helpful, so long as you were being proactive about your work.

To be fair, I think that MIT did quite a good job, it was merely the time restrictions put on them by Competenz and the sub standard paper work by Competenz.

Obviously it's all a matter of opinion, but that is how I would sum it up.

[SixPackBack]

What's your apprentice's name, and when did he go? I wonder if we were on the same course (they don't run them very often)

The course had many faults, the biggest one being the complete and utter lack of time to get the paperwork and the practical completed. Second to that was a lack of time on the machines, or lack of machines (people lining up for a grinder or something.)
Also, the paperwork quality is very poor. I failed 5th form english twice and feel I could do a better job on quite a lot of it. The other problem was that it looked like someone with no industry experience wrote the papers, so there were some real odd ball questions in there that shouldn't have been.

The tutors were out numbered for the amount of students, but the ones I had were very helpful, so long as you were being proactive about your work.

To be fair, I think that MIT did quite a good job, it was merely the time restrictions put on them by Competenz and the sub standard paper work by Competenz.

Obviously it's all a matter of opinion, but that is how I would sum it up.

Simon.

I have a meeting with CompeteNZ this friday, its going to be a little stormy....

[gatch]

This took me by surprise a little.. I just finished my 3rd year block course (fitting/machining) at Ucol in Palmy. Funny that they would send you all the way up to Auckland for 2 weeks. The one here was 3 weeks but definately did not need to be that long.. I agree with what you say about the competenz material looking like it was written by people with no industry experience, to the point even where it would seem the notes were written by one person who has copy pasted off the internet, the assignment book written by another dude who may have read the notes once, and the assessment written by some other dude who hasn't looked at the other books at all..

The bit that pissed me off the most was the performance criteria, "demonstrate and apply knowledge".. Ie pass the paper test, manufacture one demo piece and you are considered competent. Bullshit, if I was asked to program our works only cnc machine I wouldn't have a clue, as all we went over was g-code basics, if it came to making some small changes to a program it wouldn't be an issue, but NOONE is going to write an entire program by hand for anything except the simplest of jobs.

New Zealand is already missing a generation of skilled tradesman, the way competenz is going to miss another.. Luckily I work with a bunch of guys who have a broad range of experiences and am learning all the time. In saying that though one of the company owners is the most infuriating person I have ever met, like you said before sketchy if I don't receive a substantial pay increase once my time is up, I won't be able to throw in the towel fast enough..

[Sketchy_Racer]

Simon.

I have a meeting with CompeteNZ this friday, its going to be a little stormy....

He wasn't in my class. Have fun with the meeting with (in)competenz


This took me by surprise a little.. I just finished my 3rd year block course (fitting/machining) at Ucol in Palmy. Funny that they would send you all the way up to Auckland for 2 weeks. The one here was 3 weeks but definately did not need to be that long.. I agree with what you say about the competenz material looking like it was written by people with no industry experience, to the point even where it would seem the notes were written by one person who has copy pasted off the internet, the assignment book written by another dude who may have read the notes once, and the assessment written by some other dude who hasn't looked at the other books at all..

The bit that pissed me off the most was the performance criteria, "demonstrate and apply knowledge".. Ie pass the paper test, manufacture one demo piece and you are considered competent. Bullshit, if I was asked to program our works only cnc machine I wouldn't have a clue, as all we went over was g-code basics, if it came to making some small changes to a program it wouldn't be an issue, but NOONE is going to write an entire program by hand for anything except the simplest of jobs.

New Zealand is already missing a generation of skilled tradesman, the way competenz is going to miss another.. Luckily I work with a bunch of guys who have a broad range of experiences and am learning all the time. In saying that though one of the company owners is the most infuriating person I have ever met, like you said before sketchy if I don't receive a substantial pay increase once my time is up, I won't be able to throw in the towel fast enough..

I did my year one block course at ucol in palmy. It was shit there. We got to do toss all machining, most of it was paper work.

Where did you do your year two?

My block course up at MIT made sure we could write a program out by hand, and then we had to run it on a simulator, once it worked there we got to run them on the machines if you had enough time.
I don't know how you could have passed the units without being able to write a complete program, unless Ucol and MIT have different criteria?

The whole apprenticeship was blatantly designed by a pen pusher, and for a mechanical trade it is seriously way to paper work dependent!

[Deano]

I don't know how you could have passed the units without being able to write a complete program, unless Ucol and MIT have different criteria?

The whole apprenticeship was blatantly designed by a pen pusher, and for a mechanical trade it is seriously way to paper work dependent!

It's known as the dumbing down of society bro.

[gatch]

He wasn't in my class. Have fun with the meeting with (in)competenz



I did my year one block course at ucol in palmy. It was shit there. We got to do toss all machining, most of it was paper work.

Where did you do your year two?

My block course up at MIT made sure we could write a program out by hand, and then we had to run it on a simulator, once it worked there we got to run them on the machines if you had enough time.
I don't know how you could have passed the units without being able to write a complete program, unless Ucol and MIT have different criteria?

The whole apprenticeship was blatantly designed by a pen pusher, and for a mechanical trade it is seriously way to paper work dependent!

I did a pre-apprenticeship and my year 2 at Ucol, you are right, they are not that informative, sticking rigidly to the bare minimum they have to instruct on. I didn't learn a single useful thing on my yr 2.. There was guys who were supposed to be fitter/turners there who didn't even know that lathe tools have to be set at centre height. I think if I didn't have previous engineering experience and some clued up dudes at work, I would really be struggling even after the hours were finished..

Are you training solely as a machinist ? If so I think your cnc units may be alot more in depth than mine..

[Biggles08]

So....sorry to interupt the facinating conversation on apprenticeships, but just to fill you all in on what has been done.

Tonight I went over east to my mates workshop and we used a carbide cutter to shave off just over 1mm off the leading edge of the dog gears. This was done flat to get rid of the rounded edges first and then he put on a smaller cutter (3mm I think) and angled the dividing head to 3 1/2 degrees undercut (the dog gears come undercut by 2 deg from factory already apparently) and chopped it 90% of the way up the face from the base. He said he would leave about 10% of the face perpendicular to make it easy to engage the gears initially and make the edge more robust to the hammering I obviously give me gears :-). This was done rather than undercutting all the way from the base to the edge and leaving a small, sharp edge at the top that would be more suceptable to rounding or dulling quicker.

I took some video footage of before, as we were doing it and after that I will put on youtube sometime soon.

Overall I'm pretty positive that this will have fixed my problems and Snowy (my mate who did it) made a lot of sense in his reasoning.

Whats your thoughts on all of this peoples?

Biggles08

[Ozzy27]

So....sorry to interupt the facinating conversation on apprenticeships, but just to fill you all in on what has been done.

Tonight I went over east to my mates workshop and we used a carbide cutter to shave off just over 1mm off the leading edge of the dog gears. This was done flat to get rid of the rounded edges first and then he put on a smaller cutter (3mm I think) and angled the dividing head to 3 1/2 degrees undercut (the dog gears come undercut by 2 deg from factory already apparently) and chopped it 90% of the way up the face from the base. He said he would leave about 10% of the face perpendicular to make it easy to engage the gears initially and make the edge more robust to the hammering I obviously give me gears :-). This was done rather than undercutting all the way from the base to the edge and leaving a small, sharp edge at the top that would be more suceptable to rounding or dulling quicker.

I took some video footage of before, as we were doing it and after that I will put on youtube sometime soon.

Overall I'm pretty positive that this will have fixed my problems and Snowy (my mate who did it) made a lot of sense in his reasoning.

Whats your thoughts on all of this peoples?

Biggles08

Hi Marcus,
From Reading what you have said it sounds like you hve missed some of the key parts.
Have you also undercut the mating gear? (the hole the dog slides into)
Have you indexed the dogs? (made sure all the dogs touch the mating gear at the same point so the load is spread over all of the dogs)
The under cut should go all the way to the top od the dog with a very small taper lead. This is so when the dog is only partially engaeged and load is reapplied (you open the throttle)the dog is pulled into the mating gear completeing the change not pushing it out (missed change).
These are all thing someone with experience under cutting gears would have known. Hopefully it all works ok for you.
Cheers
Ozzy

[Biggles08]

Hey Ozzy27...see below:


Hi Marcus,
From Reading what you have said it sounds like you hve missed some of the key parts.
Have you also undercut the mating gear? (the hole the dog slides into)
yeah....it was another dog gear with 'male' dogs that it engaged with....this was also undercut at 3 1/5 deg.

Have you indexed the dogs? (made sure all the dogs touch the mating gear at the same point so the load is spread over all of the dogs)
He 'blued' the gears to check for this....all was sweeeeeeeet :-)

The under cut should go all the way to the top od the dog with a very small taper lead. This is so when the dog is only partially engaeged and load is reapplied (you open the throttle)the dog is pulled into the mating gear completeing the change not pushing it out (missed change). This is what I was trying to explain with the 90% undercutting and the 10% being the 'taper' lead....although, he has made this straight and not on any angle.


These are all thing someone with experience under cutting gears would have known. Hopefully it all works ok for you.
Cheers
Ozzy
This was snowys first go at actually undercutting motorcycles gears....he has been involved with undercutting a BMW K1 gearbox before but he was only helping and they didn't actually undercut them, just re-machined them flat. He is a toolmaker by trade though so knows a thing or two....hopefully its fixed!!!! fingers crossed:2thumbsup

[Biggles08]

heres the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gFXvgSsAJc

[Biggles08]

HELP!!!!!!! still having issues with 4th gear! Can't seem to engage it properly! Anyone have a spare gearbox they want to donate to biggles racing team!?!? We seemed to have sorted out 2nd to 3rd but 3rd to 4th is still randomly hard to engage!

[Sketchy_Racer]

Tonight I went over east to my mates workshop and we used a carbide cutter to shave off just over 1mm off the leading edge of the dog gears. This was done flat to get rid of the rounded edges first and then he put on a smaller cutter (3mm I think) and angled the dividing head to 3 1/2 degrees undercut (the dog gears come undercut by 2 deg from factory already apparently) and chopped it 90% of the way up the face from the base. He said he would leave about 10% of the face perpendicular to make it easy to engage the gears initially and make the edge more robust to the hammering I obviously give me gears :-). This was done rather than undercutting all the way from the base to the edge and leaving a small, sharp edge at the top that would be more suceptable to rounding or dulling quicker.

I took some video footage of before, as we were doing it and after that I will put on youtube sometime soon.

Overall I'm pretty positive that this will have fixed my problems and Snowy (my mate who did it) made a lot of sense in his reasoning.

Whats your thoughts on all of this peoples?

Biggles08


HELP!!!!!!! still having issues with 4th gear! Can't seem to engage it properly! Anyone have a spare gearbox they want to donate to biggles racing team!?!? We seemed to have sorted out 2nd to 3rd but 3rd to 4th is still randomly hard to engage!

Hey ya Biggles,

That's a real bugger to hear about your 4th gear not responding.
One thing i did notice about your explanation, was the fact that your mate removed 1.00mm of material from your gear! That is a huge amount, far more than the depth of the case hardening of the gear, so now what you will have is a very soft dog which will deteriorate very quickly.

Usually undercutting a already hardened gear is done by grinding, where the amounts of material coming off the gear are around the 0.10mm figure, so that the hard surface of the gear is not removed.

One other thing to point out, is shimming of the gearbox. If the gears aren't shimmed right, it is possible for the gear to hit a stop on the shaft (circlip, or shoulder) and not be able to 100% engage.

Good luck with it all, I hope you get it sorted for round 3. I bet your glad that the Kawasaki has a cassette style gearbox!

Cheers,

-Glen

[Biggles08]

Hey ya Biggles,

That's a real bugger to hear about your 4th gear not responding.
One thing i did notice about your explanation, was the fact that your mate removed 1.00mm of material from your gear! That is a huge amount, far more than the depth of the case hardening of the gear, so now what you will have is a very soft dog which will deteriorate very quickly.

Usually undercutting a already hardened gear is done by grinding, where the amounts of material coming off the gear are around the 0.10mm figure, so that the hard surface of the gear is not removed.

One other thing to point out, is shimming of the gearbox. If the gears aren't shimmed right, it is possible for the gear to hit a stop on the shaft (circlip, or shoulder) and not be able to 100% engage.

Good luck with it all, I hope you get it sorted for round 3. I bet your glad that the Kawasaki has a cassette style gearbox!

Cheers,

-Glen

hey Glen,

I think we have found another problem that originally was over looked when we first removed the gears. It appears that the needle bearings on the end of the main shaft are a tad worn and damaged. There was a lot of play in the fixed gears right next to the bearings up to about 3mm. I will order the replacement bearing tomorrow and the washer and see it that removes the play. This will also eliminate any chance of the bearing ceasing.

Also, it seems the spring on the star shifter gear is not strong enough to pull the gear in completely and hold it. When the dogs don't engage completely because the faces of the dogs come together, when they rotate further the gear still doesn't engage properly. We are looking for a stronger spring too.

All this is great but I'm really cutting it fine to get it all ready by thursday morning to leave for Manfield. :(

[Pussy]

Hey Marcus, would it be worth giving one of these a bash?


http://www.factorypro.com/products/Factory_Pro_shift.html

[Biggles08]

Hey Marcus, would it be worth giving one of these a bash?


http://www.factorypro.com/products/Factory_Pro_shift.html

Funny you suggested that cause I was talking to John from triple zee today about exactly that! The problem is they don't list a star shifter for my model bike 07/08 ZX6R.

[Sketchy_Racer]

How ya getting on Biggles? Any luck with getting the bearings etc sorted?

[Biggles08]

How ya getting on Biggles? Any luck with getting the bearings etc sorted?

got the bearings to my mechanic this morning. He is putting it all back together this evening and trying to ensure that I'm going to have my gears sorted for this weekend...I'm leaving for manfield tomorrow morning at 6am...cutting it fine but hey not much choice. I'll find out on friday morning at the first practice session how it is....fingers crossed!

[Sparky Bills]

Hope its sorted mate.
See you on Saturday. I havnt done a thing to my bike... Apart from get it painted. :banana:
Its now red... And red is fast!

[Kiwi Graham]

got the bearings to my mechanic this morning. He is putting it all back together this evening and trying to ensure that I'm going to have my gears sorted for this weekend...I'm leaving for manfield tomorrow morning at 6am...cutting it fine but hey not much choice. I'll find out on friday morning at the first practice session how it is....fingers crossed!

Good luck for the weekend bud.
Fukin hate gearbox issues.

[Biggles08]

Good luck for the weekend bud.
Fukin hate gearbox issues.

Cheers bud! You are not fucking kidding! This has been the most stressfull build up to a race day ever! I couldn't have done it without my sponsors 'Takapuna Brake and Automotive' who have pulled appart my bike about 4 times this month trying to fix it! Thank goodness for the Cassette type box in the kawasaki's! See you lot on the track friday!:headbang:

[Biggles08]

Hope its sorted mate.
See you on Saturday. I havnt done a thing to my bike... Apart from get it painted. :banana:
Its now red... And red is fast!

so that wasn't you in the BRM page 92 then....your on a red bike :Pokey:
hehehe