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CookMySock
9th August 2009, 12:37
It could soon be harder for teenagers to get a driver's licence.

A consultation document for a 10 year plan to improve road safety is to be issued later this month.

Transport Minister Stephen Joyce says raising the minimum driving age, making the restricted licence test tougher and increasing the length of time for learner licences will all be up for discussion.

He says he is not deliberately looking to raise the driving age, but young drivers are over-represented in crash statistics.

According to the Ministry of Transport, 37% of fatal crashes between 2005 - 2007 involved a driver aged from 15 to 24 years.


**from http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/08/09/1245c18a4f9f

Ixion
9th August 2009, 12:49
This is the Road Safety Strategy 2020 plan.

Young drivers are identified as a principle focus of the strategy - as the report (infra) notes.

So, also, are motorcyclists. You have been warned.

The Starategy will be open to public submission. You have the right to speak up in support of motorcycling. use it, or lose it.

PrincessBandit
9th August 2009, 12:52
It could soon be harder for teenagers to get a driver's licence.

....

He says he is not deliberately looking to raise the driving age, but young drivers are over-represented in crash statistics.

According to the Ministry of Transport, 37% of fatal crashes between 2005 - 2007 involved a driver aged from 15 to 24 years.


**from http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/08/09/1245c18a4f9f

Well, that's not too surprising really. I know back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I got my drivers licence you went straight into a Full with nothing but your commonsense and (hopefully) responsible parents to still guide you in your early driving endeavours. But we didn't have half the vehicle congestion on the roads, nor high powered speed machines we do today. Some older people can barely handle them, let alone young socially, emotionally and mentally under developed youfs.

bogan
9th August 2009, 13:17
It could soon be harder for teenagers to get a driver's licence.

A consultation document for a 10 year plan to improve road safety is to be issued later this month.

Transport Minister Stephen Joyce says raising the minimum driving age, making the restricted licence test tougher and increasing the length of time for learner licences will all be up for discussion.

He says he is not deliberately looking to raise the driving age, but young drivers are over-represented in crash statistics.

According to the Ministry of Transport, 37% of fatal crashes between 2005 - 2007 involved a driver aged from 15 to 24 years.


**from http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/08/09/1245c18a4f9f

I have to wonder though, is it because they are young drivers, or because they are still learning to drive, if the age is raised then the new learner age may also be over represented in stats.
And its a little impractical to raise the driving age, young people will become too dependant on thier parents, harder to get jobs, especially in rural areas.

I do agree with the tougher tests idea though.

wickle
9th August 2009, 13:46
I have to wonder though, is it because they are young drivers, or because they are still learning to drive, if the age is raised then the new learner age may also be over represented in stats.
And its a little impractical to raise the driving age, young people will become too dependant on thier parents, harder to get jobs, especially in rural areas.

I do agree with the tougher tests idea though.
Would it not be better to limit learners to driving vechiles with lower out put similiar to motorcycles, raising the age is only going to restrict younger people further when applying for jobs (no licence ,no job)

James Deuce
9th August 2009, 14:18
Would it not be better to limit learners to driving vechiles with lower out put similiar to motorcycles, raising the age is only going to restrict younger people further when applying for jobs (no licence ,no job)

Yeah, I've heard this argument before. It holds no water.

The number and type of jobs that demand a license aren't as plentiful as they once were, plus the school leaving age has raised. The minimum driving age should follow.

Personally I think the minimum age for a license for a male should be 25, with the proviso that they are the parent of at least 2 children, otherwise the lowest age should be 30.

bogan
9th August 2009, 14:22
Yeah, I've heard this argument before. It holds no water.

The number and type of jobs that demand a license aren't as plentiful as they once were, plus the school leaving age has raised. The minimum driving age should follow.

Personally I think the minimum age for a license for a male should be 25, with the proviso that they are the parent of at least 2 children, otherwise the lowest age should be 30.

The number of driving jobs isn't huge, but I'm pretty sure all jobs expect you to actually turn up for work, which is a little hard if its a rural job, or you live out of town and have no license.

James Deuce
9th August 2009, 14:27
The number of driving jobs isn't huge, but I'm pretty sure all jobs expect you to actually turn up for work, which is a little hard if its a rural job, or you live out of town and have no license.

You're serious, aren't you?

I spent my time cycling to work and getting buses and trains, and I find myself doing it again 20+ years later.

I really don't give a toss how kiddies getting to work. It's part of growing up. Vehicle ownership and debt shouldn't be the default option for teenagers.

p.dath
9th August 2009, 14:30
I wonder how many of those 37% of fatal accidents statistics also involved alcohol. I don't know, but perhaps the determining factor may not be just the age but the use of alcohol as well.

Perhaps maybe in reviewing the age limit for getting a licence we also look at introducing an alcohol limit of zero for those on a learner licence.

I think it might be an idea to make the age of eligibility to buy alcohol, get a drivers licence, and enter the armed services all be made the same ...

CookMySock
9th August 2009, 15:28
I don't think they should raise the age limit. There are ways and means of making kids be careful on the road. I got my kid a license, a bike with a $7k loan, and a job to pay it off over three years, and NO insurance, and told him allllll about what will happen if he prangs it. You should have seen the tear in his eye, and do you think he was careful?? Oh FUCK yes he was careful alright - damn straight he was, or else he would have been working for three years to pay off a fucked up box of twisted steel and broken plastic, all the time nursing his wrecked leg or three.

Kids in shitbox cars that cost nothing, but with full comprehensive insurance in mums name are accidents just waiting to happen, and you know they will.

What if kids should be forced to have a named mentor on their license, and the mentor gets a hefty fine if the kid does wrong? That will keep the boot on the right foot. If no adult is prepared to put their hand up - no license!

Steve

bogan
9th August 2009, 15:37
You're serious, aren't you?

I spent my time cycling to work and getting buses and trains, and I find myself doing it again 20+ years later.

I really don't give a toss how kiddies getting to work. It's part of growing up. Vehicle ownership and debt shouldn't be the default option for teenagers.

It'd work in cities, but i grew up on a farm, had a number of jobs over 25km away, the first 5 of which was gravel. Do you expect people in that situation to cycle to work every day, rain snow or shine (theres no buses in the wops), it'd be an extra hour and a half commute every day.

Driving should be viewed as part of gaining independence, whether people learn at 15 or 25, theres always gonna be shit learner drivers. Unless there was compulsory advanced driver training or something like that, now theres a thought :yes:

Also, I like DB's mentor idea, simple and efficient.

Babelfish
9th August 2009, 16:06
Feck the age, they should just raise the IQ required. If you've the nouse of lump of turd you shouldn't be able to drive. Said IQ should then be moulded through tougher training. Learning to drive and use a vehicle should be the same as learning to fly. And rather than just handing money back to govt for speeding or dangerous driving, the money should be used to retrain.

James Deuce
9th August 2009, 16:20
It'd work in cities, but i grew up on a farm, had a number of jobs over 25km away, the first 5 of which was gravel. Do you expect people in that situation to cycle to work every day, rain snow or shine (theres no buses in the wops), it'd be an extra hour and a half commute every day.

Driving should be viewed as part of gaining independence, whether people learn at 15 or 25, theres always gonna be shit learner drivers. Unless there was compulsory advanced driver training or something like that, now theres a thought :yes:

Also, I like DB's mentor idea, simple and efficient.

As I said mate, I don't care how the kiddies get to work. It's their problem.

My wife's Grandfather used to walk from Pahiatua to Masterton while he was courting. He'd leave on Friday night, go out on the town on Saturday in Masterton, and be back at work on the Monday morning at 4:30am. That would be their one weekend off a month.

Yes, I would expect someone to cycle 25km. I used to cycle 18 to my first job. It's not a big deal when you're young and fit.

bogan
9th August 2009, 16:36
As I said mate, I don't care how the kiddies get to work. It's their problem.

My wife's Grandfather used to walk from Pahiatua to Masterton while he was courting. He'd leave on Friday night, go out on the town on Saturday in Masterton, and be back at work on the Monday morning at 4:30am. That would be their one weekend off a month.

Yes, I would expect someone to cycle 25km. I used to cycle 18 to my first job. It's not a big deal when you're young and fit.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the possibility of saving a few lives, justifies inconveniencing the masses. Its a slippery slope that one, one I think we're too far down already. In this case I reckon theres better solutions than banning driving for young-uns altogether.

Katman
9th August 2009, 18:21
Its a slippery slope that one........

I always laugh when I read that.

Anyone noticed todays society?

Ixion
9th August 2009, 18:27
It'd work in cities, but i grew up on a farm, had a number of jobs over 25km away, the first 5 of which was gravel. Do you expect people in that situation to cycle to work every day, rain snow or shine (theres no buses in the wops), it'd be an extra hour and a half commute every day.

..

Yes .

p.dath
9th August 2009, 18:36
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the possibility of saving a few lives, justifies inconveniencing the masses. Its a slippery slope that one, one I think we're too far down already. In this case I reckon theres better solutions than banning driving for young-uns altogether.

Here's a good question for you then. How much would you be prepared to pay to save someone else's life?
And I guess you had better hope they would be prepared to spend as much to save yours.

crazyhorse
9th August 2009, 18:43
I don't believe it is the age of the driver - lets face it, there wouldn't be too many of us that did NOT get our licence at the age of 15!!!

Look at the vehicles out there, that the younger generation have at their fingertips. When I grew up, we were driving things like Morris minors, Hilman Imps, Mini's etc. Very safe cars compared to the boy racer shit out there that these kids drive - and some of them are faster than our cars.

So I believe that they should put restrictions of the kind of vehicles the young kids drive, not the age thing. Won't make a difference if they get their licence at 18 or 20. The cars are still fast and deadly.:done:

bogan
9th August 2009, 18:50
Here's a good question for you then. How much would you be prepared to pay to save someone else's life?
And I guess you had better hope they would be prepared to spend as much to save yours.

Well itd depend on who and why i was saving them, as well as my financial circumstances, which wouldn't be too flash if id been an hour late for work every day :shifty:

The theme here seems to be that survival must be placed above all else, getting out taking risks where necessary and living it up is a far better option in my opinion. Its why I ride.

James Deuce
9th August 2009, 19:01
Well itd depend on who and why i was saving them, as well as my financial circumstances, which wouldn't be too flash if id been an hour late for work every day :shifty:

The theme here seems to be that survival must be placed above all else, getting out taking risks where necessary and living it up is a far better option in my opinion. Its why I ride.


That's not the theme at all. The theme is actually earning a living, struggling to get to a better place, learning the value of things.

Not ticking up an R34 Skyline to drive 25kms to work.

Being an hour late to work every day just means you're lacking a decent work ethic. It's not because you don't have a car, it's because you're lazy and unmotivated.

Genestho
9th August 2009, 20:00
I wonder how many of those 37% of fatal accidents statistics also involved alcohol. I don't know, but perhaps the determining factor may not be just the age but the use of alcohol as well.

Perhaps maybe in reviewing the age limit for getting a licence we also look at introducing an alcohol limit of zero for those on a learner licence.

I think it might be an idea to make the age of eligibility to buy alcohol, get a drivers licence, and enter the armed services all be made the same ...

According to the stats (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Young-Driver-Crash-Factsheet.pdf)......page 6 splits up the causes.

p.dath
9th August 2009, 20:30
Okay from the stats then young drivers mostly have accidents involving alcohol, speed or drugs.

Making alcohol harder to get will help with one of the issues. But what do you do about speed?

Maybe make the penalties for young speeders more severe? Perhaps an automatic 7 day suspension on your first speeding offence while on a learners? 2nd offence 30 days, 3rd offence 1 year and confiscation of vehicle for 30 days.
Perhaps make the penalty so severe that leaners wont risk speeding?

James Deuce
9th August 2009, 20:36
Someone's forgotten what it is to be young I see. The tougher the penalties, the more attractive the verboten substance.

bogan
9th August 2009, 21:13
Okay from the stats then young drivers mostly have accidents involving alcohol, speed or drugs.

Making alcohol harder to get will help with one of the issues. But what do you do about speed?

Maybe make the penalties for young speeders more severe? Perhaps an automatic 7 day suspension on your first speeding offence while on a learners? 2nd offence 30 days, 3rd offence 1 year and confiscation of vehicle for 30 days.
Perhaps make the penalty so severe that leaners wont risk speeding?

The problem with the 'stick' solutions is that there are not enough cops to effectively police such laws, they're still struggling away with the DUI's. Some way to change the attitudes, make speeding/dangerous driving be shunned as much as drunk driving, and ensure learners are fully informed of the consequences.

Or do a one other country does (cant member which one) and have scooter licenses available from age 15, and cars a few years later. Could even postpone the car age for any speeding etc infringements given while on the scooter license. Young people would then be mobile and cud get jobs no hassels, but be far less of a risk to themselves and others on the roads

James Deuce
10th August 2009, 07:42
Or do a one other country does (cant member which one) and have scooter licenses available from age 15, and cars a few years later. Could even postpone the car age for any speeding etc infringements given while on the scooter license. Young people would then be mobile and cud get jobs no hassels, but be far less of a risk to themselves and others on the roads

Only works in countries with dense urban connurbations like Italy, Spain, or China. They are limited to 50cc scooters in European countries that encourage scooter use, and Italy have introduced a compulsory helmet law which nearly killed Aprilia.

CookMySock
10th August 2009, 07:48
Kids don't need restrictions on what type of car, or where they can go with it. They will find workarounds for that almost immediately.

What they need is a rope around their neck if they fuck up. Then they don't fuck up. You watch.

I think comprehensive insurance should not be permitted for teen drivers - that just allows them to do anything with no consequences.

Instead, they should be put into a compulsory savings scheme - $20 a week. The idea is, if they are involved in any harm at all they are forced to remain in the scheme until it's paid back. If they have no accidents they get all their money back at 25 y/o - a fat ten grand wad of cash - do you think they will be looking forward to this day? :yes:

If they DO have accidents, they might still be in the scheme at 35 y/o, paying in whatever the scheme demands. Not nice. The scheme pays out to all and sundry who are interfered with.

It also gets people thinking what a ripoff insurance really is.

Steve

sunhuntin
10th August 2009, 08:06
i dont think scooters are the answer either.
there are a number of high school kids have scooters, and theres a group of boys [i call them the bumble bee brigade due to the noise of their scoots] who are always up and down mainstreet, under and overtaking cars wheres theres no room, under and overtaking each other and causing the other to wobble all over the lane. they also do non moving wheel stands at the lights [revving and pulling the front up without moving] they are almost worse than boy racers cos more of them can fit in the lane in a tight group. most of them are wearing l plates.
im willing to bet that in bigger cities, the packs of scoot riders act worse.

i definately think limiting what they can drive is a good idea, but if someone wants to be a jerk, they will eventually be one anyway. my brother learned to drive in dads lada, and then they bought him a dunger of a mini. he eventually moved on to i think a mazda, which he used to take a 50k corner to fast, rolled it, destroyed a brick fence and nearly killed a couple of his mates and himself. by the time this happened, i was so used to him fucking up every week that i didnt even respond. it did put me off driving however.

CookMySock
10th August 2009, 08:39
... the bumble bee brigade It doesnt do any harm though, it just winds people up who are prone to that, but those people are going to get wound about something anyway, so who cares.


i definately think limiting what they can drive is a good idea, but if someone wants to be a jerk, they will eventually be one anyway.So why is limiting cars a good idea if it doesnt work?


my brother learned to drive in dads lada, and then they bought him a dunger of a mini. he eventually moved on to i think a mazda, which he used to take a 50k corner to fast, rolled it, destroyed a brick fence and nearly killed a couple of his mates and himself. by the time this happened, i was so used to him fucking up every week that i didnt even respond. it did put me off driving however.Here you hit the nail on the head. What kind of car was he driving? A dunger, right?

What are the personal consequences of him trashing it? Nothing? Uh huh. He will just get another shitbox and trash that too, along with someones front fence and teenage daughter.

That is the problem in a nutshell. No consequences. That must change.

Steve

bogan
10th August 2009, 09:20
Dunno bout no consequences, this thread is about the high death rates for young drivers, thats a pretty big consequence. The same mentality of "it'll never happen to me" will probably transfer to "ill never get caught" if the fines etc are increased.
I think the motivation of young people who speed excessively and drive dangerously needs to be thouroughly looked into and addressed.

insane1
10th August 2009, 09:30
make it the first offence for young drivers huge fine and consfication of car/drivers licence ,might make them think a bit.

ready4whatever
10th August 2009, 09:36
its not age its the attitude that those youngans have at that age which seems like age is the problem..? the problem is they feel too cool when they drive around with a bunch of mates in their 'suped up' car straight out of japan that the bank owns.
dont you know the formula for brain usage, its 1 brain divided by the amount of teens, e.g 2 teens half a brain between them, and so on

CookMySock
10th August 2009, 09:48
this thread is about the high death rates for young drivers, thats a pretty big consequence. The same mentality of "it'll never happen to me" will probably transfer to "ill never get caught" if the fines etc are increased. I think the motivation of young people who speed excessively and drive dangerously needs to be thouroughly looked into and addressed.There isn't any "motivation". It's just too much fun, and as you say, it will never happen to them as they are wayy sk1llrd. You are never going to change that, so it misguided trying to.

The same happens for you or I when we squeeze the throttle leading onto a nice straight and that inline four howl starts to build, it's just that we are beginning to understand how vulnerable we are. Teens do not, and they are not going to. Sometimes we oldies do not either, but we feel it inside when we know we were or are close to pain and loss - teens, again, do not. They just feel the buzz and it builds more towards their invincibility.

You can even show them horrific movies about car crashes, and all that does is glorify it more. Worse? Yup.

Steve

Jonno.
10th August 2009, 09:56
keep driving age at 15, increase restricted age. make insurance compulsory eg more speeding tickets and accidents plus skyline equals high or no insurance. change fines with pd. parents need to take responsibility for their childre.

bogan
10th August 2009, 10:16
There isn't any "motivation". It's just too much fun, and as you say, it will never happen to them as they are wayy sk1llrd. You are never going to change that, so it misguided trying to.

The same happens for you or I when we squeeze the throttle leading onto a nice straight and that inline four howl starts to build, it's just that we are beginning to understand how vulnerable we are. Teens do not, and they are not going to. Sometimes we oldies do not either, but we feel it inside when we know we were or are close to pain and loss - teens, again, do not. They just feel the buzz and it builds more towards their invincibility.

You can even show them horrific movies about car crashes, and all that does is glorify it more. Worse? Yup.

Steve

Unfortunately, thats probly true in some cases, though most teens (where i come from anyway) are affected by the facts and horrific vids and drive better because of them.

I still dont beleive raising the driving age will greatly change the accident rate, all it will do is raise the age of the high risk age group, learner drivers are always gonna be shit, and it may even be better to learn while still at home under decent parental guidance, rather than learn to drive with slightly older mates.

Genestho
10th August 2009, 10:52
I think youff are the same now as have always been. If it's forbidden - do it. If it's fast - crank it. No different now to what has always been.
Part of evolution, learn from mistakes and all that. It's not till you have kids, things to loose, or go through something that you learn this behaviour is dumb.

These 37% didn't get a chance to learn.




You can even show them horrific movies about car crashes, and all that does is glorify it more. Worse? Yup.

Steve

I can safely disagree with that Steve, being in the coalface - I've had a room full of teens in tears.
And come up, shake my hand and thank me for it after.
They realised the consequences of their actions do impact many.
I still get emails from kids that say a certain song reminds them of my husbands and friends deaths.

That tells me - it still makes them think, they know drink driving is stupid and shameful.

Putting faces and a real story to stats, explaining the real consequences of innocent death - particularly in my husbands case who was aware of what was going on around him, did try to hang on, but knew he would die. The shame, loss and grief.
These are far and long reaching consequences.

CookMySock
10th August 2009, 11:04
I can safely disagree with that Steve, being in the coalface - I've had a room full of teens in tears. And come up, shake my hand and thank me for it after.Well, thank you. Sometimes I am wrong.

I'm glad I'm wrong on this one.

Steve

StoneY
10th August 2009, 11:56
Making alcohol harder to get will help with one of the issues. But what do you do about speed?

Maybe make the penalties for young speeders more severe? Perhaps an automatic 7 day suspension on your first speeding offence while on a learners? 2nd offence 30 days, 3rd offence 1 year and confiscation of vehicle for 30 days.
Perhaps make the penalty so severe that leaners wont risk speeding?

NOW thats GOOD thinking
I freely admit at 39 years, its easy to say, at age 18 I had a VIP Valiant with a 360 ci V8- somehow I survived- guess Dad taught me well

The age is not the issue the practices incorporated and care the parents take in educating thier young hoons- but alas with so much cheap horsepower and congested rioads there is no easy answer to this issue
:doh:

idb
10th August 2009, 12:26
I hate young people

Ixion
10th August 2009, 12:31
I hate old people.

But youth is wasted on youff, they don't know how to enjoy it, all going emo all over the shop.

Why is everybody so hung up on a few youff's get killed off? We used to send them off to wars and kill them by the tens and hundreds of thousands (millions , even , in the Muddle East).

Now we ain't got any convenient wars , so the roads have to serve instead.

It's not like there aren't plenty of replacements.

And if we run short I could always make a few more.

Swoop
10th August 2009, 12:40
I note that "Driver contribrution to fatal crashes" includes "Failed to keep left" as a cause. It rates as number 5 on a list out of 20 accident causes.

I find it interesting that the "keep left unless passing" law is totally ignored by enforcement personnell when it rates that highly.

SPman
10th August 2009, 15:16
When I grew up, we were driving things like Morris minors, Hilman Imps, Mini's etc. Very safe cars compared to the boy racer shit out there that these kids driveYeah - but we drove them as though they were racecars.......
Safe! Ever tried an Austin 7 with different sized wheels at 55 mph on a bumpy main highway - not knowing which direction the rudimentary suspension would throw the car across the road! If it bounced the wrong way with an oncoming car it would have been all over! Ford Populars and V8 coupes that would tend to fall over if you cornered too hard. The only way they were "safe" was that they didn't have much grunt - dangerous in it's own way - tried passing uphill in an 850 Mini....it takes a loooooong time.
Safety is all relative - youfs were being killed as regularly when I was young as they are now, and just as spectactularly - Mark 1 Zephyrs against power poles was a favourite for a while.....
Car restrictions are all well and fine, but, those who are inclined to do so, will kill themselves just as effectively in a low powered heap car - a high powered car just lets it happen a bit quicker!

Morcs
10th August 2009, 15:29
They should raise the age limit as there is no controls over what a 15 year old can drive - if one has the money to buy it, a 15 year old can go and buy a V8 and a uber turbo jappa - not a nice thought when on a motorcycle.

In the UK, the driving age is 17. This is fine, as although there are a lot of fuckwits, there are pretty much restricted to 1.1L cars unless they have oodles of cash, as the mandatory insurance third party often costs as much as your average shit car.

Ixion
10th August 2009, 16:33
Whilst wandering east of Ealing Broadway I happened across this (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article6296348.ece)

Willy said it well, as usual



I would there were no age between sixteen and three-and-twenty,
or that youth would sleep out the rest;
for there is nothing in the between
but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting.


Trying to keep young men "safe" is a BadThing for society. Evolution hasn't programmed them for "safety". That's a chick notion.

Young men NEED fast cars; or wars; or killing lions. It's how they prove their manhood, show off to the chicks (don't knock it, it's the whole basis of evolution). Make young men safe and you destroy the future of the human race. You monster!

Some of them get killed, that's Nature's toll. Pay it or the species goes extinct!

Genestho
10th August 2009, 17:19
Whilst wandering east of Ealing Broadway I happened across this (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article6296348.ece)

Willy said it well, as usual



Trying to keep young men "safe" is a BadThing for society. Evolution hasn't programmed them for "safety". That's a chick notion.

Young men NEED fast cars; or wars; or killing lions. It's how they prove their manhood, show off to the chicks (don't knock it, it's the whole basis of evolution). Make young men safe and you destroy the future of the human race. You monster!

Some of them get killed, that's Nature's toll. Pay it or the species goes extinct!

:bleh: Put that in your submission sir!:eek:

slofox
10th August 2009, 18:04
And if we run short I could always make a few more.

You're a grubby old man y'know that?....half a chance and away ya go....I dunno....

crazyhorse
10th August 2009, 19:33
HB Cops had a great weekend - impounded 21 Boy racer cars this weekend - wonder if it would really hit them hard - a month without their car, $400 for impound fees, and probably a court case, for who knows what? But the big question is, will they learn......? I think not!:doh:

SPman
10th August 2009, 19:56
I find it amusing to read slogans like "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body .... but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out .... shouting FUCK what a ride!", as bikers signatures, yet reading comments about how bad it is that others, by their perceived actions, are doing the same thing......

CookMySock
10th August 2009, 20:30
I find it amusing to read slogans like "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body .... but rather to skid in sideways totally worn out .... shouting FUCK what a ride!", as bikers signatures, yet reading comments about how bad it is that others, by their perceived actions, are doing the same thing......Fuck yeah, well said.

Steve