Moto Guzzi drive train failure

[MotoKuzzi]

My Guzzi makes a whirring noise and won't drive when the clutch is let out. At first it sounded like it was from gearbox / clutch area but the noise is also there when I push it and seems to be from the diff end rather than the front.
Before I start pulling things apart does any one have any suggestions as to the likely cause?:crybaby:

[SS90]

OH crikey mate!

The most likely cause is your universal joint.

From experience it should have felt like a coffee grinder under your foot for the last 100Km or so, before letting go (if indeed that is what happened)

The fact that it does it when you are pushing it points in that direction.

I know that the Cali's (sometimes) had a problem with the clutch letting go (twin plates, and I have seen a couple of examples where the centre spline rips out of the rear plate) but I don't think that is the problem with yours.

10 years ago (I was working on the last of the carbed cali's and the first of the injected ones when they where new), gosh I'm getting old....... a Universal Joint was NZ$500, so it may be a little more now.

If it is, shop around, Aussie have a bigger market, and are able to operate on smaller margins.

Though it always good to support your distributor (if they are realistic aye!)

The other thing I have seen is the rear spline on the drive shaft tear out the splines, due to the fact that there was no grease on there (causing fretting), which eventually strips the splines there.

That could also be a possibilty.

I am guessing it has done a few KM's by now, so it's quite acceptable to do a Universal joint about every, 70,000 KM's

[MotoKuzzi]

Thanks for that. I have just listened to it by rotating the wheel on the centre stand. Definitely in the diff area, rumbly noise, I haven't noticed anything unusual vibration wise under the feet( there's so much there anyway ). It's had more backlash lately though.

[nudemetalz]

You been giving the diff oil changes?
All it needs is about 300mls.

[MotoKuzzi]

The other thing I have seen is the rear spline on the drive shaft tear out the splines, due to the fact that there was no grease on there (causing fretting), which eventually strips the splines there.

That could also be a possibilty.

I am guessing it has done a few KM's by now, so it's quite acceptable to do a Universal joint about every, 70,000 KM's


Spot on mate. Spline into diff f..kd and same for the sleeve that connects the shaft to the diff. Dry as a bone yet the upper splines look well lubed and almost new. Don't know whether it got overlooked at the last service or they need more attention. She's got 86,000km on now. What are my options do you think?

[Paul in NZ]

Spot on mate. Spline into diff f..kd and same for the sleeve that connects the shaft to the diff. Dry as a bone yet the upper splines look well lubed and almost new. Don't know whether it got overlooked at the last service or they need more attention. She's got 86,000km on now. What are my options do you think?

If it's the spline at the diff end - OUCH! Stand by for a good old fashioned reaming because you replace the pinion and crown wheel as a set and it's about the most expensive part on a Guzzi... AND it needs to be set up properly or you will root it double quick!

If it's the drive shaft our coupler - no worries.

Call Pete at Moto Kiwi - he will sort you out the fastest.

The dealie is - every time you change a tyre, drop the rear drive and lube those splines, takes 10 mins.

[MotoKuzzi]

If it's the spline at the diff end - OUCH! Stand by for a good old fashioned reaming because you replace the pinion and crown wheel as a set and it's about the most expensive part on a Guzzi... AND it needs to be set up properly or you will root it double quick!

If it's the drive shaft our coupler - no worries.

Call Pete at Moto Kiwi - he will sort you out the fastest.

The dealie is - every time you change a tyre, drop the rear drive and lube those splines, takes 10 mins.

It's both unfortunately. Pete has said the diff end spline can be built up which is an option I had been considering. I don't know whats possible but if it can be mounted in a lathe and machined to take a splined sleeve to mate to the drive shaft or built up and re splined it is bound to be cheaper than new. I know one thing I'll never ignore it again. Although looking at the wear in both the sleeve and the spline it's got to have been going on for longer than the 25k Ive done on it.

[Paul in NZ]

It's both unfortunately. Pete has said the diff end spline can be built up which is an option I had been considering. I don't know whats possible but if it can be mounted in a lathe and machined to take a splined sleeve to mate to the drive shaft or built up and re splined it is bound to be cheaper than new. I know one thing I'll never ignore it again. Although looking at the wear in both the sleeve and the spline it's got to have been going on for longer than the 25k Ive done on it.

Probably - not uncommon to be assembled dry at the factory and missed during dealer set up.

The coupling is (in theory) the sacrificial part but the lubes there to keep it from rusting. It rusts, impact powders the rust, it rusts some more...

Petes the man - I'd go with his suggestion or see if you can find a used one?

[Molly]

Glad I happened upon this thread. My V11 is going to have a pre-summer sort out and I'm bloody sure it'll now included a good lube of those splines.

Sorry it went tits up mate.

[MotoKuzzi]

Glad I happened upon this thread. My V11 is going to have a pre-summer sort out and I'm bloody sure it'll now included a good lube of those splines.

Sorry it went tits up mate.

So am I, figured it would have been regularly serviced before I bought it and I've only done 25k in 2 yrs. Bikes done 86k all up.

[Paul in NZ]

Glad I happened upon this thread. My V11 is going to have a pre-summer sort out and I'm bloody sure it'll now included a good lube of those splines.

Sorry it went tits up mate.

V11 has a different set up and you have to make really sure you line them up properly - theres heaps of info about it on the web but I never paid much attention cos I don't own one ;-)

[SS90]

If it's the spline at the diff end - OUCH! Stand by for a good old fashioned reaming because you replace the pinion and crown wheel as a set and it's about the most expensive part on a Guzzi... AND it needs to be set up properly or you will root it double quick!

If it's the drive shaft our coupler - no worries.

Call Pete at Moto Kiwi - he will sort you out the fastest.

The dealie is - every time you change a tyre, drop the rear drive and lube those splines, takes 10 mins.

Yea, that's a bitch!

A real word of warning here, (I'll put it in capitals, just to look cool) NEVER EVER USE "COPPERSLIP" ON THOSE SPLINES

10,000Km's later, pukarooed (not me, a mate), but we all learned a lesson!

When I was working on new Guzzi's (1995 till 2000) we never ONCE pulled off a drive box to check for grease (it's not actually part of the predelivery........ my god, are you supposed to strip the whole bike?

Yea, for sure, every time you put a tyre on, lube the spline, and also, put a LIGHT smear of good quality grease on the hub that the wheel sits on (drive hub) or the same will happen to that.

From memory we did pull all the rear wheels off and lube those ones though, or they actually "squeaked" when you pushed them around the workshop!

Just a slight smear though, because the grease will melt, and you will fool yourself into thinking that you have a leaking seal!

The best grease money can buy (and it is a lot of money to buy this grease) is made especially for BMW

They use it on their clutch hubs and drive splines, and they actually recommend removing the gear box and relubing the clutch spline every 80,000 km's!

It's a special white Moly based stuff, it's not cheap, but I know it works!

Yes, you can repair the spline, but if you hunt around you will find someting at a good price.

If they are greased correctly, those splines last over 500,000 KMS (experience on that one) it's only lack of maintenance that kill them!

[MotoKuzzi]

......If they are greased correctly, those splines last over 500,000 KMS (experience on that one) it's only lack of maintenance that kill them!

Good to know!! I was thinking of looking at the G/Box end while I'm doing this other stuff. Is there a universal joint in there? or splined sleeve like the lower end. How difficult would it be to remove the clutch for a look as well?

[SS90]

Yea, there is a Universal Joint there.

They are a pretty hardy item in all truth.

I know that they do cost HEAPS new in NZ (Europe is about HALF the NZ price last time I checked, and Aussie is pretty good too)

From memory, expect........150,000KM to 200,000KM from a cali UJ that hasn't been "slogged" around town it's whole life.

I am pretty sure you can go to a car place, and they can replace the cross and the bearings (I think they are form a Subaru or something) and it is quite cheap.

I have never had that done, so I can't comment.

I think I saw a price of NZ$750 for a UJ one time, and that is just robbery....... they are MUCH cheaper in Europe!

anyway, I found this just now (I havn't read it, but a quick flick seems correct)

Hope it helps!

http://www.mgnoc.com/article_california_comfort_cruiser_-_u-joint_and_spline_maintenance.html


The Cali is not to difficult to strip out and get to the clutch.


I assume it's injected, (if it's carbed, it's a little easier, so just take a note of where the fuel hoses go, and it is fairly straight forward really, basically, after removing the swing arm you unbolt the frame (Gotta love Tonti for this design aye!) and you end up with a box under the sump, a scissor jack under the gear box and lift the frame off the engine/gearbox assembly.

With experience 2 hours is enough to get it to that point, but sure, allow a little longer for your first one!

simply unbolt the gearbox, and you will see a seperate spline/gear sitting in the middle of the clutch hub, which the input shaft of the gear box meshes with.

Essentially a gear with an internal spline.

Apply some of that special BMW grease to the internal spline and the external gear (not too much of course, it's a dry clutch!)

It would be a good idea to inspect both your clutch plates then, if there is no signs of cracks on the hubs, and the wear is ok, I would just inspect the seal behind the clutch (just to be safe, if it's not leaking, it's sweet as!)

If you got a workshop to do that, I recon 1 day is correct.

I have done a few Cali clutches in my day, and I can honestly say 1 day is correct.

[sidecar bob]

Heres the grease you need. Trade-Me auction-239163980.
Its called Optimol.

[Dodgyiti]

It's both unfortunately. Pete has said the diff end spline can be built up which is an option I had been considering.

Try for a second hand one first, building it up can weaken it's structure- still feasable but the repairer really needs to know what they are doing.

You poor bugger, this bike of yours has given a bit of grief lately. Hopefully this is the last thing and you can enjoy it when summer kicks in.

I did a clutch last week for someone, this is how I do them- be safe! She get's a bit wobbly when lifting the frame up:niceone:

[sidecar bob]

A guy that may be able to help with repair or supply of parts is John Blaymires, He races classic sidecar #242 a Guzzi powered outfit.
He seems to know his way around those things blindfolded.
I can raise his contact details if required.

[MotoKuzzi]

At the moment I have it at an engineering shop in Pukekohe, getting an estimate for repairing the splines and bringing everything back to as close to original as possible. Will have to weigh that up against new prices. I'm reluctant to go second hand at the moment because it seems unlikely I would get low mileage and condition would be hard to assess before purchasing. The engineers have said the repair to the diff spline would be with metal of lesser hardness than original because they wouldn't be able to groove the splines with metal of the same degree of hardness. Apparently they repair tractor splines the same way ( lol ) with few problems. I'm figuring that if an original spline will exceed 500,000km with good maintenance this should do at least a 100, 000 if i maintain it to the same standard. Gotta find some of that BMW grease though.

[Madmax]

have done several repairs on strange aircraft engines
may be able to help

[Paul in NZ]

You really don't need the bmw stuff, just some hi impact grease amd as the man said, just a smear.

Yes - there is a universal up there - not as expensive as all that but expensive enough so you want to look after it. Occasionally, undo the boot and squirt a bit of oil in there to keep the rust at bay!

Removing the swing arm is easy - putting it back is easy (the second time).

try to get a manual and a copy of Guzziology. If you remove the clutch pm me or that dodgybugger for a lend of the cluch liney uppy thingy...

I feel for ya mate - that bikes plain mis behaving!

[MotoKuzzi]

have done several repairs on strange aircraft engines
may be able to help

Thanks will keep that in mind.

[Molly]

V11 has a different set up and you have to make really sure you line them up properly - theres heaps of info about it on the web but I never paid much attention cos I don't own one ;-)

Thanks. Just about 17,000 miles on my Guzzi at the moment so I'm hoping we've a lot of time ahead of us before too big a strip down. Not looking forward to that day though.

[MotoKuzzi]

You really don't need the bmw stuff, just some hi impact grease amd as the man said, just a smear.

Yes - there is a universal up there - not as expensive as all that but expensive enough so you want to look after it. Occasionally, undo the boot and squirt a bit of oil in there to keep the rust at bay!

Removing the swing arm is easy - putting it back is easy (the second time).

try to get a manual and a copy of Guzziology. If you remove the clutch pm me or that dodgybugger for a lend of the cluch liney uppy thingy...

I feel for ya mate - that bikes plain mis behaving!

Is hi impact same as extreme pressure ? Got the swing arm off and the universal looks and feels very good ( engineers comment ). I'm deliberating about the clutch, the only indication I've got that it could be due is the mileage otherwise it's been fine. The bike has given me a few problems lately but I've gotten used to that over the years with owning agricultural machinery ( seriously ). Appreciate the advice from everyone it helps.

[Paul in NZ]

If it aint broke don't touch it - having said that, the driven plates are cheap enough!

[SS90]

Yea, good advise "don't touch what ain't broke", is always good advise.

I have owned Guzzi's and BMW's, and to be honest, I pull the gearbox off both bikes at 80,000K's and greased the splines (neither needed clutches by the way)

for some trouble free K's, it could be worth the inspection.....clutches (even after market "beefed up ones" aren't expensive.)

Personally I would do it due to the condition of the rear spline.

You call!

[Paul in NZ]

One thing that roots the splines is people lugging the poor things about in top gear - they like to rev....

[Dodgyiti]

One thing that roots the splines is people lugging the poor things about in top gear - they like to rev....

Yep, true even for the Calli's.

If you do pull the clutch off (as Paul said) I have both the fine and course spline input cogs if you need them. I am actually out your way looking at a block of land on Saturday if that helps??
PM if you want?

Surflex clutch for your bike $260 @ MotoKiwi

[MotoKuzzi]

One thing that roots the splines is people lugging the poor things about in top gear - they like to rev....

Good point, short shifting is a characteristic of mine, and lugging in 50k zones in 4th or 5th. 3rd gear seems too twitchy around town. 95% of my mileage is open rd at 100k and no more than 10% above:innocent: Common sense says I should look at the clutch but $$ says slap it back together and enjoy for a while longer. I read a thread on clutch removal last night and nearly fell asleep, one thing that did wake me up was the bit about counting threads on the swing arm bolts, which I didn't do in my tear apart mood. How can I make sure the swing arm is centred?

[Paul in NZ]

Same threads exposed each side of the bobbins, just wind em in till there is no play but not too tight. Check the housing lines up properly with the back of the box.

Also, check engine tuning, out of balance carbs, throttle bodies make them run like donkies (whoops - tiddly) down low!

[MotoKuzzi]

Think of a reasonable number ( $) and double it seems to me to be a reliable way to estimate the cost of repairs. Pinion spline, build up with weld and respline $600. Make new sleeve and respline one end of the drive shaft, $800. Versus new shaft $250 and new sleeve $150 from Italy. Still got the cost of the pinion spline rebuild to add though. Is there any good reason why a new or good 2nd hand pinion can't be mated to my crown wheel which is in good cond. ( New crown wheel and pinion $ 1400 from Italy )

[MotoKuzzi]

Well, it's been a long time, too long to be not riding. The Cali is finally back on the road, took her for a wee spin last night at suitably low speeds just in case i had forgotten to tighten something up correctly or whatever. Found an engineer in Kaikohe ( friend of a friend ) who resplined the pinion $300 cash, seems to have done a nice job, the fit to the coupler is moderately tight but eased up once I put the paste on. I replaced the pinion shaft bearings and put it all back together with the same shims as before and seems no different than the way it came apart. I found a paste called GA50 for the spline lube, 50% moly disulfide $48 for a tootpaste sized tube at an engineering supplies shop, did all the shaft splines and the rear wheel hubs and still got 3/4 of the tube left. I'm planning on pulling it apart after about another 5k to check the pinion spline and probably every 15k or so after that. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread I learned a lot from all of you.
Cheers,
Mark.