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ital916
2nd September 2009, 16:35
Well it seems there is enough computer experts in the club for me to ask this question.

Im not a computer expert but it seems to buy a pre made desktop is crazy as they are so expensive for their respective performance. So if one was to learn to ropes of putting together a good computer what is needed, what should be looked out for and what the important and less important bits are.

So the components are:

CPU
Motherboard
Memory
Case
Power supplies
Hard drive
graphics card
fans
and all the associated cabling and stuff.

I have a monitor and keyboard and mouse and stuff

So what are the best brands and what is the important things to know?

Like a giant electrical jigsaw puzzle.....this com-pu-ter stuff :scratch:

Squiggles
2nd September 2009, 16:46
Get a mac.

ital916
2nd September 2009, 16:53
Get a mac.

I have a power mac g4 sitting at home but am more inclined to the compnent pc as upgrading will be so much easier....upgrading a mac...ha.

Squiggles
2nd September 2009, 16:55
I have a power mac g4 sitting at home but am more inclined to the compnent pc as upgrading will be so much easier....upgrading a mac...ha.

Get a decent mac.

Hiflyer
2nd September 2009, 16:59
Well it seems there is enough computer experts in the club for me to ask this question.

Im not a computer expert but it seems to buy a pre made desktop is crazy as they are so expensive for their respective performance. So if one was to learn to ropes of putting together a good computer what is needed, what should be looked out for and what the important and less important bits are.

So the components are:

CPU
Motherboard
Memory
Case
Power supplies
Hard drive
graphics card
fans
and all the associated cabling and stuff.

I have a monitor and keyboard and mouse and stuff

So what are the best brands and what is the important things to know?

Like a giant electrical jigsaw puzzle.....this com-pu-ter stuff :scratch:


Go to PB tech, their stuff is real good and affordable.
My flatmate built a desktop computer for 2.5k that's way better than 90% of everything else

Slyer
2nd September 2009, 17:04
Apple takes the fun out of having a computer.
Feels good making it yourself. ;)

Tell me what are you looking for in a PC and I can recommend.

PirateJafa
2nd September 2009, 17:05
The problem with Macs is that you don't get to experience the pain of owning a real PC.

Reckless
2nd September 2009, 17:06
I just built a grunty new 3d CAD computer. And after pricing all the bits for me to make it (I made all my previous ones) on Pricespy and other sites. A custom make by Computer lounge was only a fraction more (Playtech where close as well). So I went for the bought one to get the warranties etc. Look for an upgrade box price seeing as you have all the other gear!

BTW Trade me seems expensive for computers and components for some reason??

ital916
2nd September 2009, 17:31
It is just a thought at the moment but I was thinking of a 3d cad computer to run pro engineer/solidworks/drafting programs as well as pro NC and manufacturing design programs.

A bit of gaming would be nice as well, enough grunt so that I dont need to upgrade for a while.

I dont know the difference between brands though i.e. why intel is better than amd or vice versa

Ronin
2nd September 2009, 17:33
Well it seems there is enough computer experts in the club for me to ask this question.

Im not a computer expert but it seems to buy a pre made desktop is crazy as they are so expensive for their respective performance. So if one was to learn to ropes of putting together a good computer what is needed, what should be looked out for and what the important and less important bits are.

So the components are:

CPU
Motherboard
Memory
Case
Power supplies
Hard drive
graphics card
fans
and all the associated cabling and stuff.

I have a monitor and keyboard and mouse and stuff

So what are the best brands and what is the important things to know?

Like a giant electrical jigsaw puzzle.....this com-pu-ter stuff :scratch:

What do you want to do with it?

The Pastor
2nd September 2009, 17:38
decide on what processor you want, then choose the mobo then choose the video card, then choose the powersupply then get as much ram as you can afford.

Squiggles
2nd September 2009, 17:38
i mean, srsly... how awesome is dis:
<img src=http://images.apple.com/home/images/hero_osx_20090828.jpg></img>

Slyer
2nd September 2009, 17:54
It is just a thought at the moment but I was thinking of a 3d cad computer to run pro engineer/solidworks/drafting programs as well as pro NC and manufacturing design programs.

A bit of gaming would be nice as well, enough grunt so that I dont need to upgrade for a while.

I dont know the difference between brands though i.e. why intel is better than amd or vice versa
Definitely go Intel, they have nicer motherboards for a start and just all-round better in my experience.
Also, Macs use them. ;)

hutchy52
2nd September 2009, 17:54
macs have intel processors these days anyway, its basically a PC with OSX software, which you can run on PC's anyway, but at twice the price.

jonbuoy
2nd September 2009, 18:15
The only problem with a home build is fault finding without spares if it doesn't boot, post or randomly crashes or reboots on you during use- you can take a guess as to whats causing it but the only real way to confirm is to swap parts. I wouldn't do it to save money - only do it if you are interested in putting together a system yourself. If this is your first build make sure you have access to a working PC at home for downloading driver updates and general google help.

Real_Wolf
2nd September 2009, 18:20
Its not particularily hard, renegade master lines it up nicely, aim for a decent CPU with at least dual core, find a good Mobo with enough of the slots you want (definitely want a PSIE graphics slot, at least 4 slots of ram, and some SATA ports, personally for my one I also wanted an IDE port or two for my old hdd so my mobo isn't quite as good as others, but this was years ago).

A good low-range graphics card, (ie not top of the range, but still decent) is usually available, dunno bout the radeon cards but from the geforce, the 9600GT is brilliant and incredibly cheap

Gremlin
2nd September 2009, 18:31
A package computer from whoever, even if its just the tower, is going to be better for most people out there.

Why? Because when it has a problem, you have a warranty (or at least, you should have got one) and really... for your average computer, the tower is not more expensive than building your own.

However, if you do know the insides of a computer, what a bios is, and does, etc then feel free to build your own. Equally, if you're wanting a high end rig, yes, it will be cheaper to build yourself, but you have the joys of figuring out issues, because your average pc technician wouldn't have a clue where to begin.

In short, don't skimp on the power supply. They're crucial to the running of your system, too many people try to cut costs there. A struggling power supply will give you an endless list of mystical problems. Beyond that, decide what you want to do with the machine, and your budget.

Intel C2D, C2Q is probably good budget wise, realistically, AMD is too much trouble to get running smoothly, Intel will 99/100 times run straight out of the box. Motherboard, don't go for the cheapest piece of crap that you can plug stuff into. Quality costs, but pays dividends in terms of reliability.

Me... a recent upgrade on motherboard, CPU, graphics cards, ram etc cost over $2k ex gst, excluding hard drives, power supply etc and I'm in the business, with good buy prices.

Constant upgrades are not a cheap way to enjoy computing :innocent:

Slyer
2nd September 2009, 18:34
/agree gremlin. If you don't want to put it together yourself but still want to get a cheaper pc, buy it from a place like PBtech or playtech.
HP and Dell etc are great for businesses, as they need the extra and quick support etc, but I wouldn't get one for home use. They're just too restricted in what you can do with them.

People underestimate the importance of a motherboard, selecting the best chipset for you is criticial. Go with Intel chipsets first, Nvidia chipsets second and avoid VIA chipsets like the plague...
It's not just a matter of what fits.

Gremlin
2nd September 2009, 18:39
People underestimate the importance of a motherboard, selecting the best chipset for you is criticial.
Previous hardware was an AMD based 590 SLI... rma'd 3 times, and it still had problems (despite their denials). Nvidia raid was a very big mistake too :sweatdrop

If your motherboard keeps falling over... you have a fantastic coaster... an expensive one, but can also serve as a great paperweight.

PirateJafa
2nd September 2009, 18:40
Buy a far BETTER motherboard than you currently need.

Since everything else plugs into the motherboard, it's easier/cheaper to upgrade each of those when and if you need to, rather than having to upgrade them AND get a new motherboard etc because your old mobo is too shite to run what you want to put in it.

Power supplies are important too, but you can always add extra ones in later if you're getting low on the electrickery.

And the best thing you can do is buy yourself a 24" screen. Definitely the best upgrade I've made to my computer since I upgraded from the Celeron to my old Pentium 4.

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:00
Im not a computer expert but it seems to buy a pre made desktop is crazy as they are so expensive for their respective performance.


Get a mac.


Get a decent mac.

arument invalid



BTW Trade me seems expensive for computers and components for some reason??

trademe sellers are as retarded (or unscrupulous) as trademe buyers.

www.pricespy.co.nz



I dont know the difference between brands though i.e. why intel is better than amd or vice versa

oh i just love this one

*dons battle hat and prepares keyboard for battle*

ital916
2nd September 2009, 19:03
mmm but I have a brand spanking new 22" high def monitor sitting on my table, double mmmm.


Buy a far BETTER motherboard than you currently need.

Since everything else plugs into the motherboard, it's easier/cheaper to upgrade each of those when and if you need to, rather than having to upgrade them AND get a new motherboard etc because your old mobo is too shite to run what you want to put in it.

Power supplies are important too, but you can always add extra ones in later if you're getting low on the electrickery.

And the best thing you can do is buy yourself a 24" screen. Definitely the best upgrade I've made to my computer since I upgraded from the Celeron to my old Pentium 4.

bogan
2nd September 2009, 19:05
definetely pricespy the components, ascent is one of the better online shops i reckon. Brandwise, I always go for asus motherboards, they havent let me down yet, with a nvidia or intell chipset, basically intel gives more bang per processor cycle, 3ghz amd is equivalent to a 2.4hz intel or summat (didnt actually research the number but you get the gist of it). 9600GT is a brilliant card, thought Ive never tried any ATI stuff, cud be just as good. I agree with gremlin, dont skimp on the power supply.

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:06
Intel C2D, C2Q is probably good budget wise, realistically, AMD is too much trouble to get running smoothly, Intel will 99/100 times run straight out of the box.

I have never had any problems with any of my AMD processors, despite numerous shots at overclocking and general idiocy.


Historically, AMD has always undercut Intel, often by a considerable margin. The reliability has been no different and both the AMD and intel motherboard will support the same things.

Currently, Intel has the technological/performance edge over AMD - that is they make the fastest chip, but when it comes to buying a chip you can actually afford on a student budget, AMD always has and hopefully always will offer more bang for your buck.

Long live the Duopoly!

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:10
Brandwise, I always go for asus motherboards, they havent let me down yet, with a nvidia or intell chipset,

+1

Asus are a great brand

I'd recommend Enermax for power supplies too.

By decent ram - I'm a Corsair fan but there are other good manufacturers out there.

I have been running an asus built 9600gt for a while now and it's great :)



basically intel gives more bang per processor cycle, 3ghz amd is equivalent to a 2.4hz intel or summat (didnt actually research the number but you get the gist of it). .
garghshfa!

get a benchmark to find two similarly performing processors in your chosen applications, then compare the price - with different architectures and todays' multi core processors you can't fairly make any such claim.

bogan
2nd September 2009, 19:11
Currently, Intel has the technological/performance edge over AMD - that is they make the fastest chip, but when it comes to buying a chip you can actually afford on a student budget, AMD always has and hopefully always will offer more bang for your buck.

Long live the Duopoly!

I did some research bout a year ago, intell prices were more bang for buck than amd when looking purely at the cpu, but intell supporting mobos were more expensive, so it worked out that amd was slightly cheaper.

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:13
One more thing; don't underestimate the shop built computers: while Dell and HP are known for making their own custom connectors to shaft any consumers looking for a reasonable upgrade/repair avenue, many small shops make great packages that are tested working, carry a warranty, and are no more expensive to buy than to build

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:15
*heads into the interwebs to see how the market has changed lately*

bogan
2nd September 2009, 19:16
garghshfa!

get a benchmark to find two similarly performing processors in your chosen applications, then compare the price - with different architectures and todays' multi core processors you can't fairly make any such claim.

i compared the performance on cpubenchmark website, and intell consistently outperforms amd for a given processor speed, I said intell gives more bang per processor cycle, so price did not come into it, as price change all the time

hutchy52
2nd September 2009, 19:24
Why? Because when it has a problem, you have a warranty (or at least, you should have got one) and really... for your average computer, the tower is not more expensive than building your own.


You get a warranty on your parts anyway, no different to having a warranty on the full system

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:27
i compared the performance on cpubenchmark website, and intell consistently outperforms amd for a given processor speed, I said intell gives more bang per processor cycle, so price did not come into it, as price change all the time

there are several reasons why an intel gets more bang per cycle - none of which should matter to someone making a purchase



RIGHT, so here we go! let's pick a game that's reasonably hard on a CPU, rather than graphics. Prototype is one such game.

from http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,688240/Prototype-CPU-Benchmarks-System-Requirements-and-Screenshots/Practice/ :
*img attached*

we compare AMD's best to the equivalent Intel

the AMD Phemon II 940 (http://www.pricespy.co.nz/pno_14728.html)@ $336
vs.
the Intel Core i7 920 (http://pricespy.co.nz/pno_14068.html) @ $483

the intel costs an extra 30 odd 43 percent more than AMD for only 2% more perfomance:bleh:

even more amusing is comparing Intel performance to the AMD performance given a fixed price for a CPU: if you're on a budget, you're better off with AMD

and as for a changing market - I'm yet to see a case where AMD has been undercut by Intel, and doubt we'll see any change by the time ital916 has built his system

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:31
You get a warranty on your parts anyway, no different to having a warranty on the full system

you'd be surprised at the stunts shops pull - and to be fair it can often be a mystery as to what exactly is faulty unless you have a lot of parts to swap around.

Sometimes it's just that certain components don't work well together for whatever reason :(

(PROTIP: stress test any machine you build)

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:37
oh lawl - the site fully blocked that link I made

Squiggles
2nd September 2009, 19:41
mmm but I have a brand spanking new 22" high def monitor sitting on my table, double mmmm.

Get a mac (w 24" monitor) and you'll be in heaven.


Srsly, dont skimp on psu & mobo... can always get a bigger HDD later

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 19:48
squigs, if he gets a mac for gaming and engineering, he needs to dual boot windows anyway, so he's paying twice as much for the hardware and then even more on top for windows - largely defeats the purpose of buying the mac if you're running windows, doesn't it?

(well it would if mac ownership wasn't largely based on fashion and/or religion)

bogan
2nd September 2009, 19:50
there are several reasons why an intel gets more bang per cycle - none of which should matter to someone making a purchase



RIGHT, so here we go!

from http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,688240/Prototype-CPU-Benchmarks-System-Requirements-and-Screenshots/Practice/ :


we compare AMD's best to the equivalent Intel

the AMD Phemon II (http://www.pricespy.co.nz/pno_14728.html)@ $336
vs.
the Intel Core i7 920 (http://pricespy.co.nz/pno_14068.html) @ $483

the intel costs an extra 30 odd 43 percent more than AMD for only 2% more perfomance:bleh:

even more amusing is comparing Intel performance to the AMD performance given a fixed price for a CPU: if you're on a budget, you're better off with AMD

and as for a changing market - I'm yet to see a case where AMD has been undercut by Intel, and doubt we'll see any change by the time ital916 has built his system

Bang per clock cycle is not completely irrelevant, the higher clock speed and larger transistor size in the amd make them run hotter and require moar power, the average person probly doesnt care about this though.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/

Intel Core 2 Quad Q8300 2.50GHz 1333Mhz FSB for $290 scores 3,553
AMD Phenom II X4 920 2.80GHz 125W for $306 scores 3,105

so i spose it depends which benchmarks you go for. Personally i dont like looking at fps benchmarks when cpus are tested as there is so much other factors involved. Passmark is a program designed specifically to test cpus in an unbiased way.

The AMD uses 125W, whereas the intell uses 95W

cheapest ASUS AMD mobo, $84
cheapest ASUS intel 775 LGA mobo $84

So its a slightly high end processor I picked, but the sort of thing you would want for cad/cam or gaming, chose the cheapest asus mobo for both as comparing features wuda taken too long (too fucking ages as it was!). But my findings indicate intel is superior in all ways :bleh:

ME and motorbyclist do agree on one thing for sure. Do not get a mac!!

Danae
2nd September 2009, 19:52
]: -mind explodes from PC talk-

Alas I cannot attain a desktop PC until I actually have a job...so I'm stuck with this laptop which has a shitty mobile chipset graphics mabob that can't run any decent games.

Squiggles
2nd September 2009, 20:01
then even more on top for windows

Fail logic... i suppose he's going to install linux on his custom build then?


(well it would if mac ownership wasn't largely based on fashion and/or religion)

stability, graphics, and awesome marketing ftw.

Danae
2nd September 2009, 20:12
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z0y25GAHIlM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z0y25GAHIlM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Danae
2nd September 2009, 20:15
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Rjpn3L3bSJQ&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Rjpn3L3bSJQ&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 20:16
Fail logic... i suppose he's going to install linux on his custom build then?


well he could

and win logic - you can't buy a mac without macOS installed, even if you never intend to use it - so he has to pay for two operating systems;)

I'll not even begin to address your further points.

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 20:22
for some reason Danae's post reminded me of this, and so this is where i shall post it:

Ask a Ninja!

<embed class="castfire_player" src="http://p.castfire.com/1P48R/video/89565/aanq_2009-04-29-234657.flv" quality="high" wmode="transparent" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" width="640" height="520"></embed>

Danae
2nd September 2009, 20:31
Hahaha! I remember that!

My fave:

<embed class="castfire_player" src="http://p.castfire.com/1P48R/video/1377/aanq_2007-05-22-190723.flv" quality="high" wmode="transparent" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" width="640" height="520"></embed>

Phurrball
2nd September 2009, 21:25
(Snippity do da)

(well it would if mac ownership wasn't largely based on fashion and/or religion)

Insert Honda ownership there and look in the mirror...

(That was a friendly gibe BTW - there's always more to most decisions than logic alone. Some things add up to more than the logical sum of their parts. Like VFRs or [some] Macs)

Macs ain't perfect, but they do a particularly slick design and integration package - especially the recent machines.

I'm willing to pay extra to avoid teh aggravation of Windoze. The quasi-religion aspect does leave me a little cold though - even if I'm a bit guilty of being a fan boi.


Fail logic... i suppose he's going to install linux on his custom build then?

stability, graphics, and awesome marketing ftw.

Macs are well designed from the ground up including the OS. Aggro free for folks who want a computer to integrate into their life rather than as their life [To be fair, some Windoze is better than it once was]

(I'm currently hating on the fact that with a real job will almost certainly come a Windoze box)

Slyer
2nd September 2009, 21:27
Mate windows rocks. Problems? Pfft.
Windows 7 is an absolute delight to use.

motorbyclist
2nd September 2009, 23:08
Insert Honda ownership there and look in the mirror...
i do also own a yamaha; the honda equivalent was far too pricey and imho the yamaha better suits my requirements :bleh:


Mate windows rocks. Problems? Pfft.
Windows 7 is an absolute delight to use.
+1

well.... I am a bit annoyed at how they've hidden everything remotely technical (ie, useful) behind endless automagic "oh here, let us fail to diagnose and resolve a problem that you already know the cause and solution to"


a lot like steam, it would be great if it was perfect, but it's pretty good if you just give up and submit to their agenda.

Danae
2nd September 2009, 23:14
Plus it doesn't let you view gifs in picture viewer...]:

klyong82
3rd September 2009, 00:46
Just got my new quad core at work to play with Windows 7 (64bit). my plan to roll out windows 7 OS for uni computers in 2010....

Gremlin
3rd September 2009, 01:49
I have never had any problems with any of my AMD processors, despite numerous shots at overclocking and general idiocy.
Having had to set up a few (while mostly using Intel) it was a game, with the combination of dual core drivers (there was 3-5 from memory) for which ones to install, which ones not to install, to actually get good performance from them. Wrong combination, and you had issues with timing, such as time clocks running fast, games playing at warp speed etc. Hence my reference about Intel running right out of the box, no drivers necessary. Perhaps you don't get quite the nth degree of performance, but for customers, I want reliability.


You get a warranty on your parts anyway, no different to having a warranty on the full system
:laugh: You are tooooo funny. Now try having shops blame various independent components, or manufacturers refusing to accept the return blaming the problem on another part (and that manufacturer is saying the same thing). Sure, a lot of problems can be tested, memtest for ram etc, I'm talking about the problems that aren't that easy. I've even had faulty memory fly through memtest, then fail at compression.

My i7 system has been great (first one so far), but I've stayed with XP, running 64 bit instead.

The Stranger
3rd September 2009, 08:12
Get a mac.

Buy a honda.

The Stranger
3rd September 2009, 08:34
I have never had any problems with any of my AMD processors, despite numerous shots at overclocking and general idiocy.



Hmm, and in the last 10yrs how many have you sold, used or serviced?
Other than a 2 x 486 processors (more than 10yrs ago of course) having had their cache fail (which were probably made by AMD for Intel at that stage anyway) the only other Intel processor failures I have seen have been due to improperly installed/failed heatsinks (usually the former on home built systems).
Lost count of the number of AMD processors that have fried and/or otherwise failed, but it way way exceeds the Intel failures.

Squiggles
3rd September 2009, 08:46
so he has to pay for two operating systems

Back to engineering for you i think... :msn-wink:

Slyer
3rd September 2009, 09:59
Hmm, and in the last 10yrs how many have you sold, used or serviced?
Other than a 2 x 486 processors (more than 10yrs ago of course) having had their cache fail (which were probably made by AMD for Intel at that stage anyway) the only other Intel processor failures I have seen have been due to improperly installed/failed heatsinks (usually the former on home built systems).
Lost count of the number of AMD processors that have fried and/or otherwise failed, but it way way exceeds the Intel failures.
Yeah, usually everything else dies before the processor does.
The only broken Intel I've had is where I did a stupid thing and manged to bend one of the pins...
But socket 775 sorted that didn't they. :niceone:

Reckless
3rd September 2009, 11:37
decide on what processor you want, then choose the mobo then choose the video card, then choose the powersupply then get as much ram as you can afford.

My CAd people would disagree and I thought I'd read here that engineering CAD was going to be one of its uses. My Cad tech's have been saying not how much but how fast. They ware urging all of us to look at the speeds of the chip, ram and motherboard together for a faster machine. Hence the reason I went for 6 gig CL2000 ram over 12 gig of 12800. this made sense now I have it as I'm seldom using the full 6 gig. Even when 3d rendering with several other applications running.


A package computer from whoever, even if its just the tower, is going to be better for most people out there.

Why? Because when it has a problem, you have a warranty (or at least, you should have got one) and really... for your average computer, the tower is not more expensive than building your own.:

I agree gremlin and thats not including the productive time/money you waste building it. I looked at the prices of the i7 920, motherboard, 2 x GTX270, 1 x EVGA9500GT-PCI(to run the third monitor) and a few other bits and pieces on Pricespy and decided to spend the extra $300 or so on a custom build from a specialist gaming rig shop. I wanted to overclock the i7 to 3.6 and wanted them to do it at the shop so they had to get the cooling right etc. As said I have built all my previous computers but looks like the parts margins have gone up and the complete builds have come down. I built just under top spec to get the reasonable prices and didn't do to bad??? The guy at computer lounge said I could have spent another $2000 and gained only 10 or 20%. You tech guys probably buy a lot cheaper but I don't have any friendly doors open into that arena.
So if your looking at a CAD or business rig look at how fast the bits will preform together as well as how big you go in numbers 6 gig fast might be better than 12 gig slower??
Although I do not profess to be any kind of expert in this area!!

BTW always ran Intel chips over the last 12 years and never had a problem. And Nvidia vs Ati. Was always a Nvidia man but have had no problem with my last rig with an overclocked ATI dual head card running two of the monitors and a Fx5500 card in it either. Although I'm back to Nvidia now as they reckon SLI is a better than crossfire at this stage.

The Pastor
3rd September 2009, 11:49
My CAd people would disagree and I thought I'd read here that engineering CAD was going to be one of its uses. My Cad tech's have been saying not how much but how fast. They ware urging all of us to look at the speeds of the chip, ram and motherboard together for a faster machine. Hence the reason I went for 6 gig CL2000 ram over 12 gig of 12800. this made sense now I have it as I'm seldom using the full 6 gig. Even when 3d rendering with several other applications running.



I agree gremlin and thats not including the productive time/money you waste building it. I looked at the prices of the i7 920, motherboard, 2 x GTX270, 1 x EVGA9500GT-PCI(to run the third monitor) and a few other bits and pieces on Pricespy and decided to spend the extra $300 or so on a custom build from a specialist gaming rig shop. I wanted to overclock the i7 to 3.6 and wanted them to do it at the shop so they had to get the cooling right etc. As said I have built all my previous computers but looks like the parts margins have gone up and the complete builds have come down. I built just under top spec to get the reasonable prices and didn't do to bad??? The guy at computer lounge said I could have spent another $2000 and gained only 10 or 20%. You tech guys probably buy a lot cheaper but I don't have any friendly doors open into that arena.
So if your looking at a CAD or business rig look at how fast the bits will preform together as well as how big you go in numbers 6 gig fast might be better than 12 gig slower??
Although I do not profess to be any kind of expert in this area!!

BTW always ran Intel chips over the last 12 years and never had a problem. And Nvidia vs Ati. Was always a Nvidia man but have had no problem with my last rig with an overclocked ATI dual head card running two of the monitors and a Fx5500 card in it either. Although I'm back to Nvidia now as they reckon SLI is a better than crossfire at this stage.
cads on the extreem end of things tho mate.

metalhead
3rd September 2009, 18:55
i suggest you check out www.pricespy.co.nz when you findout the parts you want, it takes all the work out of shoppiing around

Slyer
3rd September 2009, 19:20
Pricespy is good, but unless it's a lot cheaper you should try to get it all at one place. Makes things a lot easier.

bogan
3rd September 2009, 19:53
Pricespy is good, but unless it's a lot cheaper you should try to get it all at one place. Makes things a lot easier.

yeh a lot of those online place charge quite a bit for shipping and handling, ive even had one that led me to beleive it was gonna be free, my order confirmation even had $0 shipping charge, turns out buried in all the fine print it said shipping charges were calculated on dispatch, doubled the cost of my usb hub.

Dare
3rd September 2009, 20:34
Pricespy is good, but unless it's a lot cheaper you should try to get it all at one place. Makes things a lot easier.

That's true, these guys are pretty good generally http://www.extremepc.co.nz/ I wouldn't order online from them though there's a bit of a delay. Ordering from overseas is much cheaper even after shipping and conversion, i'd use newegg for their prices but there's almost no way to get it shipped here.

Trademe can be very good but it's about getting lucky, so unless you want the best of the best component for component package systems are a pretty good starting point. Quadro wasn't that much better at higher polys than the equivalent geforce (for costing 5X the price) and you could flash the drivers anyway.

GPU processing is being used more and more in 3D software/rendering so if nothing else I'd max out on motherboard, ram and graphics card(s),Not sure what the situation is in CAD. Intel is a good brand but I can't remember the last time top of the range vs cheap mid range CPU made that much of a noticeable difference in average tasks. What kind of CAD are you looking at?

Interesting point, windows 7 64/32 installs are more stable than the linux in the lounge and the imacs at uni, although we have tortured those pretty badly.

motorbyclist
3rd September 2009, 22:54
windows 7 even has age of empires II and the conquerors expansion!

Gremlin
4th September 2009, 01:23
A couple of warnings... buy from the cheapest on pricespy, and you will generally receive shit service and/or real problems trying to return goods. I've had enough mates get run through that mill to enjoy countless hours of laughing. Yes, I'm biased, I'm sorta in the business (but not consumers, and don't bother trying to beat some cheap shit retailer), but paying a bit more should get you better service.

Fact is, there have been some sellers selling at basically cost, to force out other sellers, over the years, and earning their revenue through other avenues...

A lot of trademe resellers are simply buying from the bigger distributors/sellers, chucking on a small margin, aiming to sell in volume, and either know nothing of their products and/or sell for more than what consumers could buy for in the shop...

At the same time tho, some sellers are also going to the wall in this recession, as selling parts is something almost any monkey can do, barriers to entry are relatively low etc.

The Stranger
4th September 2009, 08:27
A couple of warnings... buy from the cheapest on pricespy, and you will generally receive shit service and/or real problems trying to return goods.

What you smoking? Cheapest is always best silly.

ital916
4th September 2009, 08:41
GPU processing is being used more and more in 3D software/rendering so if nothing else I'd max out on motherboard, ram and graphics card(s),Not sure what the situation is in CAD. Intel is a good brand but I can't remember the last time top of the range vs cheap mid range CPU made that much of a noticeable difference in average tasks. What kind of CAD are you looking at?

Interesting point, windows 7 64/32 installs are more stable than the linux in the lounge and the imacs at uni, although we have tortured those pretty badly.

Well running solidworks will be one of the CAD programs...and solidworks if freaking massive...not nearly as massive as proE which I would hopefully be running too *if I can find a cheap version lol or possible swapping tthat for ansys if I gett soldiworks*, on top of that I need to find a framework package and a proper drafting package as proE's drafting one is lacking. AutoCAD/AutoDESK might fit the bill.

I also intend to run a grpahics intensive airfoil simulator software.

As well as the obligatory photoshop etc.

The price difference between an intel dual core and quad core is quite a bit, where does the mhz rating come into play. I was told be a mate that it is the cache that is important?? Like if a chip has a 3mb cache or 8mb cache :sweatdrop

Squiggles
4th September 2009, 09:10
The price difference between an intel dual core and quad core is quite a bit, where does the mhz rating come into play. I was told be a mate that it is the cache that is important?? Like if a chip has a 3mb cache or 8mb cache :sweatdrop

Get an 8-core. Big is good.

Slyer
4th September 2009, 10:00
Do not underestimate OCTOCORE.
RAWWWRRR!
*Octocore SMASH*


It's funny the clients all of our software clients that are running 4-8 cores and they haven't even bought the multi-core version. :D
Gee I wonder why the server is running at 12.5% hmmmmm.

Reckless
4th September 2009, 10:48
GPU processing is being used more and more in 3D software/rendering so if nothing else I'd max out on motherboard, ram and graphics card(s),Not sure what the situation is in CAD.

In my case its a two pronged sword. 3d rendering is graphics intensive and ray-tracing is processor intensive. Hence the reason for the overclocked i7 and the 2 x GTX270's. I concluded after looking at lots of reviews that the 270 was the best bang for buck at the moment, not to much under the 285 and 295 in speed but quite a bit cheaper.




The price difference between an intel dual core and quad core is quite a bit, where does the mhz rating come into play. I was told be a mate that it is the cache that is important?? Like if a chip has a 3mb cache or 8mb cache :sweatdrop

Our guys are saying the core speed of the i7 is an advantage over the older chips.
This sticky about hardware from our user site might be helpful to you!
http://www.chieftalk.com/showthread.php?t=41153

Thank goodness our guys program for gaming cards as Nvidia quatro's pricing is off the plant here! LOL!!

ital916
4th September 2009, 13:40
Okay I did a little bit of research and picked a few components, they are probably all shit but like I said I am not computer genius. Feel free to remedy any component problems you see. Note that this computer is still imaginary at this point in time, Im just planning for after graduation.

CPU - Intel i5 750 8MB cache 95 W 2.66 ghz - 400.00

Asustek P7P55D Intel P55 socket 1156 ATX motherboard - $250.00

ATI radeon HD 4870 1GB graphics card - $300

6GB DDR3 SDRAM - $190.00

Samsung 1TB SATA 7200rpm hard drive - $130.00

LG GH-22 22x DVD writer - $85.00

Some case + power supply (there are soooo many) - $200.00

= $1555 total + money for other bits and pieces i.e. cables and stuff.

I have a brand new monitor and keyboard and mouse.

Forgive me if the components I selected are poo, there is just a huge range of stuff out there it is freaking ridiculous.

Reckless
4th September 2009, 13:48
If you haven't got one don't forget to get the OEM pricing for a new operating system when you buy all the bits. Thats a big discount from retail.

jono035
4th September 2009, 23:00
Forgive me if the components I selected are poo, there is just a huge range of stuff out there it is freaking ridiculous.

The RAM you selected is shit and you've bought a triple channel RAM kit with a processor that has a dual-channel controller on it...

The i5 is a processor without hyperthreading as well, which would be a nice feature for anything that will run multi-threaded.

Also a 1TB 7200rpm hard drive will be pretty crap for anything that has to access the hard drive, they're slow as hell...

There are a few easy changes there for a workstation PC, but it depends on whether you're planning to game on it as well...

Let me know if you want a hand choosing components.

motorbyclist
5th September 2009, 00:45
What are you doing for redundancy/backups? CAD I assume means work, so you will want to ensure it isn't lost....


AutoCAD/AutoDESK might fit the bill.

AutoCAD is great, once you've learnt how to use it.

my ancient rig runs solidworks fine, even with reasonably complex models, and solidworks can be picked up almost entirely by intuition too. It ran fine even back when I was using a 6600gt so rendering isn't going to be a biggie lol

Pro-E also runs fine.... well as fine as Pro-E can be said to be be running (gawd I hate the guys who made that and forced upon our university)

Autocad, well depends on the packages, but they also run well and offer free versions to all students. they also have endless teaching aids etc etc.

Obviously moar power is all good, but you'd be surprised how little you actually need.

UofA is the only place I know that teaches ProE to the exclusion of all else - PTC offers nil support nor even reasonable licening for students. Everywhere else teaches Autocad, Solidworks, and anything else worth using, yet for some reason not ProE - gee i wonder why <_<


EDIT: might qualify what i mean by ancient; AMD athlon64 X2 4600+ (clocked at 2.4GHz but I've gotten her to 3GHz no sweat) and associated technology from 2007

EDITEDIT: and set up a separate install if you intend on installing visual studio. It's just easier that way.

ital916
5th September 2009, 01:38
What are you doing for redundancy/backups? CAD I assume means work, so you will want to ensure it isn't lost....



AutoCAD is great, once you've learnt how to use it.

my ancient rig runs solidworks fine, even with reasonably complex models, and solidworks can be picked up almost entirely by intuition too. It ran fine even back when I was using a 6600gt so rendering isn't going to be a biggie lol

Pro-E also runs fine.... well as fine as Pro-E can be said to be be running (gawd I hate the guys who made that and forced upon our university)

Autocad, well depends on the packages, but they also run well and offer free versions to all students. they also have endless teaching aids etc etc.

Obviously moar power is all good, but you'd be surprised how little you actually need.

UofA is the only place I know that teaches ProE to the exclusion of all else - PTC offers nil support nor even reasonable licening for students. Everywhere else teaches Autocad, Solidworks, and anything else worth using, yet for some reason not ProE - gee i wonder why <_<


EDIT: might qualify what i mean by ancient; AMD athlon64 X2 4600+ (clocked at 2.4GHz but I've gotten her to 3GHz no sweat) and associated technology from 2007

EDITEDIT: and set up a separate install if you intend on installing visual studio. It's just easier that way.

proE is great...once you know how to use it, it is a long and frustrating journey though to get to any level of competence. When it comes to writing machine code for manufacturing and compatibilty with finite element analysis programs it is ace.

jono035
5th September 2009, 10:19
Ansys, however, will be happy with as much grunt as you can throw at it.

And backups can be simple or complicated depending on what size models you are working with and how manual you can handle it being. The best way is to just save all your working files in a specific location and copy what you were working on to a dated folder on a USB key on your keyring. E-mailing them to a g-mail account works well too.

Redundancy isn't worth it in your case I would guess, backups are more appropriate, and the biggest thing being get them away from your PC/house.

Edit: Pro-E is pretty decent once you're used to it, but Solidworks is more of a de-facto standard. This is the same reason that anyone designing PCBs in eagle-cad should be shot when they could be familiarising themselves with Protel.

The Stranger
5th September 2009, 13:48
And backups can be simple or complicated depending on what size models you are working with and how manual you can handle it being. The best way is to just save all your working files in a specific location and copy what you were working on to a dated folder on a USB key on your keyring. E-mailing them to a g-mail account works well too.


With the cost of hard drives these days why not consider 4 disks in a RAID 10 at least. It's obviously no substitute for backup, but it keeps you working for one of the more common computer problems, plus the additional speed won't go amiss.

Real_Wolf
5th September 2009, 14:02
Oh, also, I think you might wanna chuck in more than $200 into powersupply+case, assuming case includes a fan or two, and the powersupply is ACTUALLY decent. Its one of those places you don't want to skimp out on money. Sure, you don't need overkill (if your going over 800W your probably overkill), but at the same time if you ave too little power your entire PC will suffer.

Roughly, from the stuff you've chosen I'd say at least a 600W, maybe a 500W but that could be pushing it. Wish I could find that useful calculator which had most major components, you'd put them in and it'd tell you minimum and recommended power supply

jono035
5th September 2009, 14:09
With the cost of hard drives these days why not consider 4 disks in a RAID 10 at least. It's obviously no substitute for backup, but it keeps you working for one of the more common computer problems, plus the additional speed won't go amiss.

Yeah, these days you're definitely right there if you want a massive whack of disk space, that's what I'll be doing with 4x1.5TB drives when I finally get around to building up a NAS box.

In terms of speed I'd go for a single 10k rpm drive solely for the OS from my figuring unless you want max sequential transfer speed rather than max random IO, you need a decent hardware card to realise the speed benefits to that arrangement anyway.

I'd say single 74GB or so 10krpm drive for OS and scratch space then another 1TB or whatever for media.

I wouldn't bother with hard drive redundancy, just make sure you keep a backup of your work and you'll be sweet. Keep any install disks handy and it is easy enough to pick up from a hard drive death. I haven't had a dead hard drive in any of my PCs in quite a while now, same with all the workstations at work.

jono035
5th September 2009, 14:17
Oh, also, I think you might wanna chuck in more than $200 into powersupply+case, assuming case includes a fan or two, and the powersupply is ACTUALLY decent. Its one of those places you don't want to skimp out on money. Sure, you don't need overkill (if your going over 800W your probably overkill), but at the same time if you ave too little power your entire PC will suffer.

Roughly, from the stuff you've chosen I'd say at least a 600W, maybe a 500W but that could be pushing it. Wish I could find that useful calculator which had most major components, you'd put them in and it'd tell you minimum and recommended power supply

A $200 thermaltake case+PSU will get you a good power supply. You don't need a power supply with big numbers, you just need a good brand of power supply that is designed well. Getting a cheaper supply from a good brand is the best way to go, getting one of the 'fancier' ones just gets your more useless trimmings and fancy looks.

Gremlin
5th September 2009, 14:53
With the cost of hard drives these days why not consider 4 disks in a RAID 10 at least. It's obviously no substitute for backup, but it keeps you working for one of the more common computer problems, plus the additional speed won't go amiss.
Yep, raid 10 will give you a bit of redundancy while still giving you performance...

Wish I could find that useful calculator which had most major components, you'd put them in and it'd tell you minimum and recommended power supply
This one? http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

A $200 thermaltake case+PSU will get you a good power supply. You don't need a power supply with big numbers, you just need a good brand of power supply that is designed well.
Just about every power supply overstates what it can actually deliver, plus, the more heavily a PSU is loaded, the shorter its lifetime. Looks like he's going towards the upper end of the market, and the GTX cards aren't light on power.

FYI, for power specs, I'm running an Antec 850W, and its OK with Core i7, 6 hard drives, twin GTX260 etc, so you definitely don't need anything above that.

Real_Wolf
6th September 2009, 09:34
850W is probably overkill.

And hmm, seems powersupplies costs have come down since I last bought mine, when my old one died, maybe you could get decent for $200, of course depends on the case you want

motorbyclist
9th September 2009, 01:26
of course depends on the case you want

how so? if it's fitting a modern video card it's a given that it's a large case.... and aren't most PSUs all the same standard size anyway?

Real_Wolf
9th September 2009, 13:02
the PSU's are standard size, but there are some cases which can cost a bloody hell of alot, you can get cases with additional fans which will cost you extra, theres the position of extra usb ports/how many slots for your cd drives, etc

jono035
9th September 2009, 13:17
the PSU's are standard size, but there are some cases which can cost a bloody hell of alot, you can get cases with additional fans which will cost you extra, theres the position of extra usb ports/how many slots for your cd drives, etc

What you're basically saying is 'if you want to spend shitloads for no apparent reason on a case, you can'... The only real reasons used to be to get better quality cases (folded edges), weird configurations like full server-towers, toolless drive bays or fancy extras like side windows, side fans etc.

These days there is bugger all point, there is a heap of different cases on the market and (apart from the PSU) cost doesn't make much difference in terms of availability of features. $200 is a decent price for a good case and PSU. $40 is a cheap case and PSU. Anything more than $200 and you have to do some serious consideration of why you want to spend that much.

Gremlin
9th September 2009, 18:18
Power Supplies do indeed differ in size. Somewhere past 660W ish the standard size finishes, my 850W for example is longer than a "normal" power supply.

Next step up again, the 1KW is enormous, getting towards twice the length, and a conventional case (psu in back top) won't handle it, because of cables exiting supply, hard drive (or optical drive) at front top etc.

Slyer
9th September 2009, 18:33
Yes indeed, I had my 750 watt PSU in a microatx case. That was a bit of a squeeze. :bleh:

Rodney007
9th September 2009, 18:37
Well my 30948230948 watt psu couldnt even fit in my house ,

thats how hardout i am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gremlin
9th September 2009, 18:42
Yes indeed, I had my 750 watt PSU in a microatx case. That was a bit of a squeeze. :bleh:
Fool, you're supposed to get a bigger case!!

http://icute.com.tw/english/A18.html < now thats handy... lots of space for stuff. Worse is when you sit back... and the case looks rather full :rolleyes:

Rodney007
9th September 2009, 18:53
way to much room, what goes down the bottom

jono035
9th September 2009, 18:59
I think all these PSU numbers are just silly, anything over 500W is probably un-needed with a decent supply with a decent distribution between 12v and 5v rails... Dissipating 500W is no mean feat without getting massively high internal temperatures...

Edit: I am of course assuming a relatively normal spec PC, i.e. single socket, single video card, a couple of hard drives and no in-built coffe-maker...

Gremlin
9th September 2009, 19:06
power supply goes on top of the hard drive bays, motherboard right up to the top

underneath the power supply... hard drives, I chuck 3-4 in there. In the front bays, fans, more hard drives, optical drives, and a floppy drive :clap:

PirateJafa
9th September 2009, 19:30
Spending money on a case is like spending money on clothes. A complete waste of time.

If you spend any more than $40 on a case, I will kick some bigass dents in it the next time I'm at your house simply for being a idiot.

ital916
9th September 2009, 19:46
Spending money on a case is like spending money on clothes. A complete waste of time.

If you spend any more than $40 on a case, I will kick some bigass dents in it the next time I'm at your house simply for being a idiot.

Dont be silly, you would break your legs kicking a computer case you mummy. Try kicking a pillow instead...more in your league :msn-wink:

Rodney007
10th September 2009, 08:36
there pumping out 700 watt psu's via trademe for 120 bucks

but they do come with 2 year RTB warranty, maybe worth a try?

Slyer
10th September 2009, 10:49
Ask if there's a warranty for if it blows up the rest of your PC's components. ;)
My old Radeon card got fried by a dodgy PSU, literally blackened around the power connector.

jono035
10th September 2009, 17:44
Ask if there's a warranty for if it blows up the rest of your PC's components. ;)
My old Radeon card got fried by a dodgy PSU, literally blackened around the power connector.

My dad had a PSU go bad before that dumped mains on the motherboard. Killed every card in the PC, the hard drive, floppy drive, keyboard/mouse and even the monitor. Popped a heap of the caps too so there was this thick acrid grey smoke hanging around over the motherboard... Lucky no-one got hurt really.

Gotta love it.

Slyer
10th September 2009, 19:54
Was it one of the psu's that you can plug a monitor into?
Ooooold

jono035
10th September 2009, 20:03
Was it one of the psu's that you can plug a monitor into?
Ooooold

Nope, high voltage on the motherboard through the supply rails to the video card and out through the vga connector.

Was an older PC though, I remember the motherboard having an AT connector on it.