Damned thing won't go!

[magicmonkey]

I'm after a bit of help from the more experienced here :)

I bought a zxr which had been sat around in the garage fir 2 years and only used once. It turned over but wouldn't start so I did the sensible thing and cleaned the carbs out and tried it again (I want to get the engine working before I start on all the other little jobs) now it's at exactly the same point but has shiney carbs. I'm thinking the next place to go is a compression test but I get the impression that I'd at least get smething catching even with poor compression. Has anyone got any helpful hints about where to start looking next?

[CookMySock]

After you put the carbs back in, did you check there was fuel in the float bowls?

Got spark? New plugs or clean them?

Check the valve clearances aren't real real tight.

Use a little engine start down the carb throats.

Usually theres a good reason why engines have been sat around for years. I'd be a little wary of buying one.


Steve

[kevfromcoro]

had that trouble with a cbr 6 hundy.
sat around to long
stuck 24 volts on it. wouldnt go
if you got spark.. and gas its got to go
try pulling the plugs out. stick a bit of oil down into the cylinder.
crank it ova. plugs back in.
should go...............
just a thought

[magicmonkey]

After you put the carbs back in, did you check there was fuel in the float bowls?

Got spark? New plugs or clean them?

Check the valve clearances aren't real real tight.

Use a little engine start down the carb throats.

Usually theres a good reason why engines have been sat around for years. I'd be a little wary of buying one.


Steve

heh, I really should have put what I'd checked in there as well shouldn't I!!

The plugs all fire (tested by holding the plugs to the block)

I tried putting a drop of petrol in each cylinder but the plugs are set so deep in the head that I think the drop of petrol just lubricated the spark plug threads rather than getting into the cylinder.

On turning over there isn't any hesitation at all (except when i drained the battery but that's on charge at the moment and should be good to go later tonight)

I'm not sure about valve clearances as I haven't got the engine open yet, I was hoping that would be something that wouldn't need doing for a little while TBH. Having said that, I'll bet the feeler gagues are cheaper than a compression tester so maybe I'll have a do with that one first ...

[magicmonkey]

had that trouble with a cbr 6 hundy.
sat around to long
stuck 24 volts on it. wouldnt go
if you got spark.. and gas its got to go
try pulling the plugs out. stick a bit of oil down into the cylinder.
crank it ova. plugs back in.
should go...............
just a thought

When you say 'bit of oil' how much are we talking here? a couple of drops or a teaspoon or just a whole mug???

[kevfromcoro]

When you say 'bit of oil' how much are we talking here? a couple of drops or a teaspoon or just a whole mug???

i think its dry in the bore,,,,
about a couple of teaspoons down each cylinder
it aint going to hurt anything
might just smoke a bit for a while

[CookMySock]

Open the carb drain screws to make sure each bowl has fuel in it. If all or some of them don't, then find the vacuum line to the fuel pump and repeatedly suck on until it pumps fuel into the carbs. If it won't pump the fuel up then investigate that further.

You need a squirty bottle with a pump, like a spray 'n wipe bottle - put some petrol in it. Pull the air filter off, full choke, adjust idle up a bit, squirt down each carb and start it - don't touch the throttle. It should go right away - if it doesn't then better check over the valve clearances or compression.

Steve

[SS90]

Open the carb drain screws to make sure each bowl has fuel in it. If all or some of them don't, then find the vacuum line to the fuel pump and repeatedly suck on until it pumps fuel into the carbs. If it won't pump the fuel up then investigate that further.

You need a squirty bottle with a pump, like a spray 'n wipe bottle - put some petrol in it. Pull the air filter off, full choke, adjust idle up a bit, squirt down each carb and start it - don't touch the throttle. It should go right away - if it doesn't then better check over the valve clearances or compression.

Steve

I say this with caution!

A can of easy start is always a good bet, and like you said, remove the air box lid and filter and spray it straight into the inlet valves.

I doubt that he valve clearances are a problem, they don't close up just by sitting.

In fact, I can't ever remember finding a ZXR250 with tight valves!

[magicmonkey]

I say this with caution!

A can of easy start is always a good bet, and like you said, remove the air box lid and filter and spray it straight into the inlet valves.

I doubt that he valve clearances are a problem, they don't close up just by sitting.

In fact, I can't ever remember finding a ZXR250 with tight valves!

Sounds like a much better idea that trying to empty out the spray-n-wipe!

[magicmonkey]

i think its dry in the bore,,,,
about a couple of teaspoons down each cylinder
it aint going to hurt anything
might just smoke a bit for a while

Sweet, I'll give that a go before the easy-start I think, best to try and loosen it up before making things go bang I suppose :)

[BoristheBiter]

I'm after a bit of help from the more experienced here :)

I bought a zxr which had been sat around in the garage fir 2 years and only used once. It turned over but wouldn't start so I did the sensible thing and cleaned the carbs out and tried it again (I want to get the engine working before I start on all the other little jobs) now it's at exactly the same point but has shiney carbs. I'm thinking the next place to go is a compression test but I get the impression that I'd at least get smething catching even with poor compression. Has anyone got any helpful hints about where to start looking next?

I had the same problem with one of my old bikes.
i would say look at the carb again. I had stripped and cleaned the whole thing but one of the jets/nozzles (what ever it was) had blocked up again. fired second kick.
just check the carb, also have you put new gas in or is it the old with a bit of new on top?

[magicmonkey]

I had the same problem with one of my old bikes.
i would say look at the carb again. I had stripped and cleaned the whole thing but one of the jets/nozzles (what ever it was) had blocked up again. fired second kick.
just check the carb, also have you put new gas in or is it the old with a bit of new on top?

there are 4 carbs on this so I'm pretty sure that at least one of them must be letting petrol through, I'm a bit hesitant to pull them off again if I don't have to but I suppose it's kind of inevitable really!

It's all new gas, the old stuff was a disgusting rust colour that I just wouldn't trust anywhere near the engine!

[BoristheBiter]

there are 4 carbs on this so I'm pretty sure that at least one of them must be letting petrol through, I'm a bit hesitant to pull them off again if I don't have to but I suppose it's kind of inevitable really!

It's all new gas, the old stuff was a disgusting rust colour that I just wouldn't trust anywhere near the engine!

It used to start right?
does it have a manual choke?
does it have a drain plug on the carb?

[magicmonkey]

It used to start right?
does it have a manual choke?
does it have a drain plug on the carb?

Yup, tried with and without choke and at various levels of throttle, also checked the drain plaug and petrol is getting to the carbs

[BoristheBiter]

Yup, tried with and without choke and at various levels of throttle, also checked the drain plaug and petrol is getting to the carbs

is the zxr the one wher you have to balance the carbs?
something to do with the vacuum in them or something like that.

[magicmonkey]

is the zxr the one wher you have to balance the carbs?
something to do with the vacuum in them or something like that.

I figure I'll have to balance the carbs but I thought that had to be done with the engine running, I could be wrong there though, I'm a complete beginner with this stuff!

[CookMySock]

Is there a fuel smell at the exhaust tailpipe?

Be careful using easy start sprays, as they are really flammable.. as has been noted, take the airbox off using start sprays in case it backfires through the carbs. BOOOM!

Steve

[CookMySock]

Is there a fuel smell at the exhaust tailpipe?

Be careful using easy start sprays, as they are really flammable.. as has been noted, take the airbox off using start sprays in case it backfires through the carbs. BOOOM!

Steve

[MSTRS]

All multi-carbed engines need the carbs 'balanced'. All it means is that the carbs all do the same thing, at the same time. Out of balance won't stop the engine running...but it won't perform properly.
Someone said earlier that all an engine needs to work is, compression, fuel and spark. As long as all those are present, and in the right quantities/time - then it'll go.
You just need to figure out what isn't being supplied...

[magicmonkey]

well, I'm now the proud owner of a brand new can of 'start ya bastard' and I'm all prepared to get the bastard started tonight :) Just a shame I don't have internet at home at the moment as I'll have no idea what to do next if it doesn't work!

[magicmonkey]

Would compression loss cause the engine to not catch at all? I would have thought it would catch and then splutter out of existence maybe, depending on how much compression was being lost that is. That's just a guess based on my somewhat limited knowledge of engines tough, would be great to knwo the right answer!

[kevfromcoro]

i bore washed that cbr.
left it ideling with the choke on
wouldnt start.
cranked it over. then all the unburnt fuel ignited in the pipe
blew the baffle clean over the neighbours fence.

[BoristheBiter]

Would compression loss cause the engine to not catch at all? I would have thought it would catch and then splutter out of existence maybe, depending on how much compression was being lost that is. That's just a guess based on my somewhat limited knowledge of engines tough, would be great to knwo the right answer!

this is why i just give it to someone else to fix.
If you have spark and gas it should start, if the compresion is low it should still try and start.
i think the only other thing is what has been said earlier and put some fuel direct into the engine via the carb throat (if not try the plug).
it might be the timing, but again it should try and go. i've not worked on a bike like this so not to sure but it does sound fuel related.

you are right it does need to be running to balance the carbs so forget that.

[magicmonkey]

i bore washed that cbr.
left it ideling with the choke on
wouldnt start.
cranked it over. then all the unburnt fuel ignited in the pipe
blew the baffle clean over the neighbours fence.

lol, so I'd better be a bit careful when starting it then!! I'll remember to check the exhaust for petrol smells before I try and crank it over methinks ...

[magicmonkey]

this is why i just give it to someone else to fix.
If you have spark and gas it should start, if the compresion is low it should still try and start.
i think the only other thing is what has been said earlier and put some fuel direct into the engine via the carb throat (if not try the plug).
it might be the timing, but again it should try and go. i've not worked on a bike like this so not to sure but it does sound fuel related.

you are right it does need to be running to balance the carbs so forget that.

Sweet. I kinda worked out that it was either fuel or air not getting down there and as there's nothing blocking the airflow at the moment it has to be fuel. Still left me with bugger all idea how to fix it!

Hopefully I'll be able to get a 'vrooom' with the easy-start and then I can take the carbs apart again safe in the knowledge that they're the problem, at least I'll have somewhere to start from then rather than shooting in the dark like I am now....

[blackdog]

just a thought, but are your HT leads connected to the correct plugs?

if your firing order is wrong it would definately not want to start

[magicmonkey]

just a thought, but are your HT leads connected to the correct plugs?

if your firing order is wrong it would definately not want to start

yup, numbered the leads as they came out and double checked them against the manual before they went back in, that's probably the only thing which I know I've done right!!

[MSTRS]

A simple way to 'check' compression is to put the bike in first gear, and try to turn the engine over by turning the back wheel. Either by hand (you'll need someone to help, or a rear paddock stand) OR just push the bike . If your wheel won't turn, then you have plenty of compression. OTOH if it turns fairly easily, then...
However, I am picking that your problem is fuel-related.

[TimeOut]

Is the fuel cock set to prime.

Kill switch? must be on if you have spark.

They can be hard to start sometimes, used easy start many times but if it was left for a week or more seemed to start better on prime.

[magicmonkey]

A simple way to 'check' compression is to put the bike in first gear, and try to turn the engine over by turning the back wheel. Either by hand (you'll need someone to help, or a rear paddock stand) OR just push the bike . If your wheel won't turn, then you have plenty of compression. OTOH if it turns fairly easily, then...
However, I am picking that your problem is fuel-related.

sweet, that's something I've done already and the rear wheel won't turn in first but will in neutral with the clutch out (I thought that might have been a test for a seized engine though, right test, wrong idea!!)

[magicmonkey]

Is the fuel cock set to prime.

Kill switch? must be on if you have spark.

They can be hard to start sometimes, used easy start many times but if it was left for a week or more seemed to start better on prime.

I set it to prime for about 10 seconds and then changed it to 'on' instead as I though that was the way to go. I'll give it a go on prime if I can get it to catch with the easy-start on there :)

[magicmonkey]

just a thought, but are your HT leads connected to the correct plugs?

if your firing order is wrong it would definately not want to start

On a slightly related note, I was thinking about putting cable ties around the leads to denote the cylinder they're meant to go in but I was a bit worried they might melt as I'm no sure how hot those leads get. Any idea if that would be ok or if I would be riding along with the stench of burning plastic as a constant companion?

[FROSTY]

MM -WHERE was the engine stored for the two years and WHY was it stored?
I've had issues with those lil motors getting rust on their valve faces/seats and getting no compression.
I'd also be making sure there aint an airlock stopping fuel getting into the carbies.

[Ixion]

Drain the fuel tanl, replace with fresh fuel. Clean the fuel tap. Set to prime, leave it there (not overnight, but).

Get a car jump starter pack thingy and connect up. If it's been sitting two years, I'm presuming the battery's been sitting two years. Bikes are sensitive about voltage, an old battery may turn the engine OKish but not have enough juice for a decent spark (testing spark out of cylinder isn't always a good test) . Can't count how often I've seen this make the difference.

With the tap on prime open all the carb drains (all you can get to anyway) and let at least a couple of hundred ml of fuel run out of each (might pay to try to catch it). Then throw it away.

What Frosty said. Why was it put away ? Cos it wouldn't start, maybe?

[Ixion]

just a thought, but are your HT leads connected to the correct plugs?

if your firing order is wrong it would definately not want to start


Stuffed up firing order will almost always produce nice loud backfires 9just not start). No action at all , usually spark or fuel (or a TOTALLY stuffed engine, but unlikely on a four)

[CookMySock]

Sounds to me like it needs the good 'ol kiwi tow it up and down the road. Or else take it to the top of a really high hill and either ride it down or push it off. :killingme

Steve

[neels]

As above, fuel tap set to prime, connect it to a car battery to keep the volts up. Check that the idle is wound right back, I had trouble starting a bike that had been sitting for a while because the throttle was too open so the choke didn't work well enough to get it going.

Nylon cable ties should be fine if you put them an inch or so above the plug caps.

[quickbuck]

MM -WHERE was the engine stored for the two years and WHY was it stored?
I've had issues with those lil motors getting rust on their valve faces/seats and getting no compression.
I'd also be making sure there aint an airlock stopping fuel getting into the carbies.

I would say Frosty is onto it.
You should have got some sort of ignition by now.... Unless your plugs are wet.
You have cleaned them right?? If you can't get all the fuel off them with a Blasting Cabnet, then you need to replace them...

As Frosty Said, these little motors with their incy wincy 16 valves that move a gnats from open to closed have a habbit of rusting on the sets.
This can cause NIL compression.
As said, you need fuel/ air / spart in the right quantities at the right time.
NOW, it is no bloody good getting a 13:1 air/Fuel ratio and try to light it up with a plug if you haven't squezed the mixture to 180 psi or so....

Also, there could well be an issue with corrosion on the bores... This will also mean lack of compression, and along with this, siezed rings (as mentioned).

2 Years sitting is not good for a little engine.

[kevfromcoro]

Still reckon its bore wash.. if it was going and nothing has changed.
like timing..and got spark and gas it should go
... or should make going noises..

years ago . we acclamed a ford galaxie.. had a 392 in it
been sitting in a cokies padock for a few years..
towed it home..and it wouldnt start..
we were young . and none of us new what we were doing really.
Garfeild the cat .. was sitting on the roof.
and probably had more knowledge than all of us.
we cranked this thing over...... and it wouldnt go.
next thing. it ignited in the sump.
blew the oil filler cap straight through a tin roof. we shat ourselves
and garfield shot straight up in the air. went a couple of metres,,,
shouldnt laugh.. but is was funny at the time.
that was bore wash.......engines sitting to long .. dont like it,

[SS90]

Still reckon its bore wash.. if it was going and nothing has changed.
like timing..and got spark and gas it should go
... or should make going noises..

years ago . we acclamed a ford galaxie.. had a 392 in it
been sitting in a cokies padock for a few years..
towed it home..and it wouldnt start..
we were young . and none of us new what we were doing really.
Garfeild the cat .. was sitting on the roof.
and probably had more knowledge than all of us.
we cranked this thing over...... and it wouldnt go.
next thing. it ignited in the sump.
blew the oil filler cap straight through a tin roof. we shat ourselves
and garfield shot straight up in the air. went a couple of metres,,,
shouldnt laugh.. but is was funny at the time.
that was bore wash.......engines sitting to long .. dont like it,

What is this "bore wash", you all keep referring too?

"bore wash" is when you ride/drive a car/bike (the older stuff, that has a CHOKE, opposed to an ENRICHINER...there is a difference, and sweet FA vehicles actually have a choke anymore)

By the way, a choke is a wee flap that covers the inlet of the carb (operated by the choke lever), and reduces the amount of air an engine gets, and an enrichiner is a plunger that, when the enrichiner lever is operated (or indeed an automatic one), a plunger uncovers an ENRICHINING JET, and increases the amount of fuel the engine gets.

The result is the same, the air fuel mixture is altered to increase the amount of fuel the engine gets to enable cold starting.

Pretty much any carbed bike since, um, 1978 has an enrichiner, not a choke, same same for most cars.

Now, "bore wash" is when, you accidentally leave the choke lever on (in the case of a choke), and, after driving for some time, due to the fact that you have reduced the amount of air the engine gets (not increased the fuel, as in the case of an enrichiner), the lack of oxygen to correctly emulsify the fuel causes the fuel to return to a liquid state in the cylinder head, not burn, and simply "run down the side of the bores", washing the oil off the sides of the bore, and causing premature wear.

What you refer to when you say how an oil filter was blown off an engine is because the crank case was full of fuel (possibly from sitting so long, and having a faulty float valve, then trying to tow start it)

That is not "bore wash"

That is a "sump full of fuel"

Different causes, and different faults.

The idea of rust on the valves causing compression loss is feasible, but from what he says regarding the rear wheel locking when in gear, I would suggest that it is not so low that it won't start.:sherlock::scooter:

[magicmonkey]

wel, thanks for all your ideas guys, got it started last night so I'm well chuffed :D

I just went home and decided that as I'd charged the battery for 48 hours on a 1600Mha charger I'd give it another go with whatever petrol was left in the carbs and it just sprang into life with nothing further from me :) I figured that maybe the petrol had softened some gunk in the carbs and and started to allow stuff through to the engine so those are off at the moment for a much more thorough clean. Now I read the posts above I guess it could have been the battery voltage as well (that's being left on trickle charge for a week or so to get a charge deep in the plates rather than the surface charge which it probably has at the moment).

There are a few problems, of course! it seems to take a long time for the revs to drop when the throttle is closed, like an unreasonable amount of time and I'm sure the carbs are going to need to be balanced properly which I presume is going to be a pain in the arse but these are problems for later, for now, I've got over the first major hurdle and I'm pretty chuffed with it, I can finesse it as I go along :D

[kwaka_crasher]

I just went home and decided that as I'd charged the battery for 48 hours on a 1600Mha charger...A 1600 Mega hecto are (hectare). Sounds cool! What does it do?

[kwaka_crasher]

It seems to take a long time for the revs to drop when the throttle is closed, like an unreasonable amount of time

Either balancing or a vacuum leak.

[BoristheBiter]

A 1600 Mega hecto are (hectare). Sounds cool! What does it do?

It should say 1600mAh.
The mAh figure quoted refers to the amount of power stored in the battery. The higher the figure, means the more power is stored in the battery.

[magicmonkey]

A 1600 Mega hecto are (hectare). Sounds cool! What does it do?

it's a 1600 millamp charger that I picked up for about $80 from repco, it's special ability is charging a battery over the longest period of time possible ;)

[magicmonkey]

Either balancing or a vacuum leak.

well, I'm going to be daring and guess that it's probably something to do with both!

On looking at the butterflys last night I could see that the one on carb 2 has been bent and wont actually shut itself off, not sure if that's something I've done or if it was there before (willing to put mony on it being me though!). Either way, I've had a word with the guys in the local bike shop and they're going to have a look at getting it replaced for me which is rather good of them, surprisingly helpful these biker types ;)

The hose going back to the airbox also looks like it's seen better days as it's starting to split on one of the connectors, I think I'm just going to get hold of some normal hose with the same dimensions and shape it in some warm water rathter than wasting the money on kawasaki branded stuff. that said, I'm not 100% that's the vacum hose! I was pretty certian it was gong on where it plugs in but it could well be something completely different :s

[magicmonkey]

Either balancing or a vacuum leak.

well, I'm going to be daring and guess that it's probably something to do with both!

On looking at the butterflys last night I could see that the one on carb 2 has been bent and wont actually shut itself off, not sure if that's something I've done or if it was there before (willing to put mony on it being me though!). Either way, I've had a word with the guys in the local bike shop and they're going to have a look at getting it replaced for me which is rather good of them, surprisingly helpful these biker types ;)

The hose going back to the airbox also looks like it's seen better days as it's starting to split on one of the connectors, I think I'm just going to get hold of some normal hose with the same dimensions and shape it in some warm water rathter than wasting the money on kawasaki branded stuff. that said, I'm not 100% that's the vacum hose! I was pretty certian it was gong on where it plugs in but it could well be something completely different :s

[The Pink Panther]

either motor start in a can .
No smoking