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ellipsis
4th April 2011, 14:38
...having just rebuilt my CB350f and getting it back on the track I have a little clutch slip...I put new oil in after the rebuild and used ELF Moto 4hp-eco 10-40...it says synthetic fortified and I am wondering if the clutch is now slipping because I have gained some horses back or if the oil is not the best to use on an older bike/clutch...I am just about to put new friction plates in, but was wondering if anyone new if this oil is to be avoided when I put new oil in..

DEATH_INC.
4th April 2011, 14:43
Should be ok, it's JASO-MA rated....

ellipsis
4th April 2011, 15:24
...beauty...thanks for that...

MSTRS
4th April 2011, 15:48
Always use motorcycle-specific oil. Your ELF is fine.
Way back when, bikes happily used car oils, but then along came friction modifiers, which cause problems for wet clutches.
Perhaps your clutch springs or fibre plates are past it? Or the steels need a light sanding?

ellipsis
4th April 2011, 16:03
...its getting new plates and springs...be rude not to after getting a new top end and going like a 350F should...not just sounding like one...always said I would up the anti on my oils one day...then you tot up the cost of running the good oils in 6 or 8 bikes you run...Im glad to hear that the elf stuff I bought is not the problem...

MSTRS
4th April 2011, 16:10
I do think that synthetic is overkill in an old bike, however. A good mineral is all you need.

98tls
4th April 2011, 16:22
I do think that synthetic is overkill in an old bike, however. A good mineral is all you need.

Mate i believe that to be true for any bike subject to normal road riding only.

Quasievil
4th April 2011, 16:43
Mate i believe that to be true for any bike subject to normal road riding only.

Bollocks me mateys, a fully synthetic only offers advantages, there are no disadvantages at all in running a synthetic in a engine of any age.
thats a fact.

98tls
4th April 2011, 16:52
Bollocks me mateys, a fully synthetic only offers advantages, there are no disadvantages at all in running a synthetic in a engine of any age.
thats a fact.

Advantages?Explain Q,It costs more and for what?38 motorcycles later ive never had a problem with good mineral nor i doubt i will ever.

Quasievil
4th April 2011, 17:06
Advantages?Explain Q,It costs more and for what?38 motorcycles later ive never had a problem with good mineral nor i doubt i will ever.

It costs more ? is that all u got mate?
It costs less in the long run, we have a squillion proof of performance tests that clearly show that the advantage of a true full synthetic pays back its initial higher price very quickly and over and over (dependant on the type of vehicle).

Not to mention the engine will run better at variable temps (i.e start up), lower friction, less oil oxidation, no impurities like Sulphur reactive and unstable hydrocarbons, generally better additive packages (certainly in the case of Mobil 1 anyway)

if I can use this analogy, mineral is like pushing your car on gravel, synthetic is like pushing you car on smooth concrete, whats easier for you??? the concrete, so whats better for your engine? synthetic.
:yes:

BMWST?
4th April 2011, 17:10
I do think that synthetic is overkill in an old bike, however. A good mineral is all you need.

he has just rebuilt it.....so its now a new bike :yes:.The advantages of synthetic hold true for all engines.Lighter weigths mean faster pump times at start up when the most wear occurs,less shear effects etc etc.

98tls
4th April 2011, 17:15
It costs more ? is that all u got mate?
It costs less in the long run, we have a squillion proof of performance tests that clearly show that the advantage of a true full synthetic pays back its initial higher price very quickly and over and over (dependant on the type of vehicle).

Not to mention the engine will run better at variable temps (i.e start up), lower friction, less oil oxidation, no impurities like Sulphur reactive and unstable hydrocarbons, generally better additive packages (certainly in the case of Mobil 1 anyway)

if I can use this analogy, mineral is like pushing your car on gravel, synthetic is like pushing you car on smooth concrete, whats easier for you??? the concrete, so whats better for your engine? synthetic.
:yes:
Yea yea mate ive heard all that before and yep the "cost" thing is all i have,i would be a prime example of someone who keeps bikes a long time,had the TL a decade using good quality mineral,the advantage of me shelling out for synthetic still are not apparent,not knocking what your saying mate i just cant see how the benefits of synthetic re the cost have a reward to the owner of a bike ridden purely on road,i can understand it in a race bike or a bike ridden in extreme conditions possibly.

98tls
4th April 2011, 17:20
he has just rebuilt it.....so its now a new bike :yes:.The advantages of synthetic hold true for all engines.Lighter weigths mean faster pump times at start up when the most wear occurs,less shear effects etc etc.

In theory you may be right though only for those that do what there old man did and leave something ticking over at idle to warm it up.:facepalm:

Quasievil
4th April 2011, 17:23
Yea yea mate ive heard all that before and yep the "cost" thing is all i have,i would be a prime example of someone who keeps bikes a long time,had the TL a decade using good quality mineral,the advantage of me shelling out for synthetic still are not apparent,not knocking what your saying mate i just cant see how the benefits of synthetic re the cost have a reward to the owner of a bike ridden purely on road,i can understand it in a race bike or a bike ridden in extreme conditions possibly.

Do you think the start up from cold stress on your engine is any less than that of a race bike?
what do you pay for your oil now dude ? a 4lt pack?

98tls
4th April 2011, 17:32
Do you think the start up from cold stress on your engine is any less than that of a race bike?
what do you pay for your oil now dude ? a 4lt pack?

No,i dont i just believe (ive no reason to not) that good quality mineral does the job,if i had ever had reason to see that it doesnt i would have changed.To be honest i cant remember what the last lot cost me which brings to mind that this is where my opinion/belief may have a flaw:blink:as its been so long since i compared prices maybe there not to far apart these days as they used to be,tell ya what Q i have to go into town tommorow,will call in at the bike shop and compare the prices as you may well have a point though that said i will as i have for 40 or so years continue to use good quality mineral.(old and set in my ways:innocent:)Fwiw i have always run it in my V8s with no need to change.

scumdog
4th April 2011, 17:36
Used 'natural' oils for ever, yet to have a motor not start/wear out whatever from using the stuff.

And I'm too Scots to pay the extra for man-made stuff just to see how much difference there is (which probably would not be immensely obvious to a rube like me)

Quasievil
4th April 2011, 17:36
No,i dont i just believe (ive no reason to not) that good quality mineral does the job,if i had ever had reason to see that it doesnt i would have changed.To be honest i cant remember what the last lot cost me which brings to mind that this is where my opinion/belief may have a flaw:blink:as its been so long since i compared prices maybe there not to far apart these days as they used to be,tell ya what Q i have to go into town tommorow,will call in at the bike shop and compare the prices as you may well have a point though that said i will as i have for 40 or so years continue to use good quality mineral.(old and set in my ways:innocent:)

A Mobil 1 racing 4t (a true synthetic) will cost you rrp of $89 for a 4lt pack, to just put that out there, you can buy it cheaper tho.
I had Motul 5100 in my R1, of course changed it to Mobil 1 after two weeks and the difference was significant, the engine spins up easier and the temp is generally lower, gearbox shifts where smoother also.
I am prepared to offer you a deal so you can try it out, so pm me next time you need some okies, you wont go back.

MSTRS
4th April 2011, 17:37
Right or wrong, I understood synthetic to be 'formulated for modern engines, with their tight tolerances and high performance' - whereas an old/er bike, even reconditioned, just doesn't compare in those areas. Hence mineral (being what was available when they were designed) is all you need.
Of course, I was also led to believe that with full synthetic, the oil change intervals could be safely doubled...

98tls
4th April 2011, 17:42
A Mobil 1 racing 4t (a true synthetic) will cost you rrp of $89 for a 4lt pack, to just put that out there, you can buy it cheaper tho.
I had Motul 5100 in my R1, of course changed it to Mobil 1 after two weeks and the difference was significant, the engine spins up easier and the temp is generally lower, gearbox shifts where smoother also.
I am prepared to offer you a deal so you can try it out, so pm me next time you need some okies, you wont go back.

Will do Q,set in my ways i am but always happy to be changed.

98tls
4th April 2011, 17:44
Used 'natural' oils for ever, yet to have a motor not start/wear out whatever from using the stuff.

And I'm too Scots to pay the extra for man-made stuff just to see how much difference there is (which probably would not be immensely obvious to a rube like me)

You could lube up the tassles with it T,they would start flaying straight away even in the coldest Southern conditions.

Quasievil
4th April 2011, 18:17
Right or wrong, I understood synthetic to be 'formulated for modern engines, with their tight tolerances and high performance' - whereas an old/er bike, even reconditioned, just doesn't compare in those areas. Hence mineral (being what was available when they were designed) is all you need.
Of course, I was also led to believe that with full synthetic, the oil change intervals could be safely doubled...

Hi John, nah thats a complete myth mate, you can run any engine on synthetic oil.
Synthetic oils will last longer than a mineral, that is a real synthetic oil, we tested (in the states) oils such as P,C,V, and a few others, their viscosity index fell apart as soon after 150 engine hours, Mobil 1 didnt break down at all at that level and showed only slight changes after 500 hours.
not all oils are the same.

Kickaha
4th April 2011, 18:51
Hi John, nah thats a complete myth mate, you can run any engine on synthetic oil.

Apart from my 1 litre per 1000km oil burning XJ550 all my bikes have run synthetic even my Bucket and apart from the FXR150 bucket I haven't owned a bike built later than 1985

MSTRS
5th April 2011, 08:55
Hi John, nah thats a complete myth mate, you can run any engine on synthetic oil.
Synthetic oils will last longer than a mineral, that is a real synthetic oil, we tested (in the states) oils such as P,C,V, and a few others, their viscosity index fell apart as soon after 150 engine hours, Mobil 1 didnt break down at all at that level and showed only slight changes after 500 hours.
not all oils are the same.

I don't entirely understand that. What are P, C, V oils? Mineral, semi-syn, syn, cheap?
I do understand that the better an oil is, the better the protection it offers, but that any good mineral oil isn't going to lunch your engine anytime soon. That is 98TLS's point...spend more on your oil if you want, but don't be concerned if you choose to run a good mineral oil.

STUFF
5th April 2011, 09:18
Synthetic oil is more stable than mineral. And the amount of additives to withstand heavy loads at different operating conditions.

Example - Yamaha Drag Star 400 mineral 15-40. or 20-50
- Yamaha R1 synthetic 10-40(small travel) or 10-50( long go)
For motorcycles not desirable viscosity 5w. :yes:

Grumph
5th April 2011, 10:04
Watched some of the replies with interest...and disagree with some too.

The original question from Camsec refers to a racebike which if he's used OE type rings will have a chrome faced top ring. The Elf may or may not give problems bedding in. Unless he does a run or two to Akaroa to get enough load cycles on the motor it may not bed in fully for as much as a season's race use.
My own policy when starting up a rebuilt race motor is to use Mineral for the break in period. If the budget will cover it then use Synthetic,sure. Mobil one is as good as anything out there - I used it when it first came in.
I've had problems with race motors whose owners had oil sponsorships....straight onto the "good stuff" supplied by the sponsors. One speedway motor never did bed in and the sponsors insisted we kept using the oil supplied as it could not be the fault of the oil - it was the best they sold....

Vgygrwr
5th April 2011, 10:14
Have to admit to not having checked for a long time but still think that Mobil 1 or Mobil 4T are cheaper because you use less petrol. I started using Mobil 1 in an old Triumph 2500 immediate improvement between 5% and 10% in consumption really paid for the cost of the oil changes. The TDM had Yamalube in it and only just changed to 4T so too soon to tell if a difference but I can buy Mobil 4T lots cheaper than I can get Yamalube.

STUFF
5th April 2011, 10:30
Not a good product can be cheap ... You maybe once faced with this.
Yamalube or mobil depends on the specifications of oil. If it's for racing, then it should cost accordingly! Each product advantages,in one the low price but in another high quality!)

TripleZee Dyno
5th April 2011, 13:39
http://www.triplezeecycles.co.nz/Documents/Mcycle Oils 2nd edition Jun09.pdf

These tests were done in the USA, land of the lawyer.
If the results werent true, were skewed, or whatever, Mobil, castrol, belRay, etc etc would be all over Amsoil like a rash. But they arent so draw your own conclusions.

IMHO the biggest advantage of synthetics is they dont break down/ wear out.
Mineral oil is breaking down as soon as its put in the plastic bottle and once its gets a thrashing in your engine its down hill all the way, hence the 5000km service intervals.
The oil is basically stuffed, but it has been on the downhill slide as as soon as you put it in your motor.
Using synthetics the savings come because you can extend the oil change intervals compared to mineral oil intervals.
The synthetic oil is still OK its the filter system that lets it down by not fully cleaning the oil. Using a bypass filter system you could run 100,000km just changing filters and topping up at filter time.

You can run mineral oil through these filter systems but the oil itself breaks down so you will still have to change it.

It might cost me $90 for 3 L of Amsoil but I only do it every 15000k so overall it works out a lot cheaper than my pal who buys $30 oil from the the warehouse and changes it every 2500k.
I have been using Amsoil for 25 yrs, have been inside 100's of motors and seen the difference.
Bought a new Harley in 1987, changed to Amsoil after 50km, 100,000km pull the top end to do the barrel gaskets, clean as a whistle inside, back together, 170,000 km pull the top off to do lifters still good as gold. Put new rings in for something to do. Oil changes at around 15000km, filters at 5000km.
Just my personal experience
cheers

F5 Dave
5th April 2011, 17:35
http://www.triplezeecycles.co.nz/Documents/Mcycle Oils 2nd edition Jun09.pdf

These tests were done in the USA, land of the lawyer.
If the results werent true, were skewed, or whatever, Mobil, castrol, belRay, etc etc would be all over Amsoil like a rash. But they arent so draw your own conclusions.
. . .
Attachment didn't work. Yes US is land of the lawyer, take for example the Slick50 debacle where DuPont who make the ingredients were sued for saying that it doesn't work like they (Slick50) claimed. And won.:facepalm:

Where's Flip when you need him?

TripleZee Dyno
5th April 2011, 17:46
Attachment didn't work. Yes US is land of the lawyer, take for example the Slick50 debacle where DuPont who make the ingredients were sued for saying that it doesn't work like they (Slick50) claimed. And won.:facepalm:

Where's Flip when you need him?
Duh 2 me
Have another go
cheers

Quasievil
5th April 2011, 17:52
Duh 2 me
Have another go
cheers


Wouldnt weight to much on that, Each Company can prove beyond all doubt that their oil is the number one, even the worst brands.

TripleZee Dyno
5th April 2011, 18:46
Wouldnt weight to much on that, Each Company can prove beyond all doubt that their oil is the number one, even the worst brands.


Well the facts speak for themselves. If any of those results are erroneous then Mobil etc would be suing Amsoil and the ASTM lab that did the tests.
The fact that no-one refutes this report in itself speaks volumes.
A quick look at Mobils published specs for VTwin and 4T shows them to be much the same as those in the Oil Study, so it cant be too far off the mark.
I have read a similar study (some of the same tests) published by API comparing synthetics to mineral.
If any of you get to read it (its out there somewhere) you would never use mineral again.

Each to their own

bsasuper
5th April 2011, 20:18
I'd love to use mobil motorcycle oil, but kauriland is not open on saturday, so can't pick any up, Id also love to get my bike power commander tuned at triple zee, but getting an appointment seams impossible, what the?

Quasievil
5th April 2011, 20:24
I'd love to use mobil motorcycle oil, but kauriland is not open on saturday, so can't pick any up, Id also love to get my bike power commander tuned at triple zee, but getting an appointment seams impossible, what the?

be on the shelfs at Repco in the coming weeks mate, stay tuned, also at all good bike shops (like that "good bike shops")

Quasievil
5th April 2011, 20:28
Well the facts speak for themselves. If any of those results are erroneous then Mobil etc would be suing Amsoil and the ASTM lab that did the tests.
The fact that no-one refutes this report in itself speaks volumes.
A quick look at Mobils published specs for VTwin and 4T shows them to be much the same as those in the Oil Study, so it cant be too far off the mark.
I have read a similar study (some of the same tests) published by API comparing synthetics to mineral.
If any of you get to read it (its out there somewhere) you would never use mineral again.

Each to their own

I wouldnt read anything into that dude, there are so many reports that come out its impossible to challenge them all.
All I will say that on the brochures for Mobil Synthetic oil we say, "the worlds leading synthetic oil" that hasnt been challenged ever...............cause its true.

AllanB
5th April 2011, 20:54
$89 for 4 l of Mobil full synthetic - best I found in Christchurch for Mobil was $110 and then they would not get the 10w40 I wanted. So I went with Spectro full synthetic last Christmas.

I'd run Castrol semi synth changed to Motul 5100 and noticed a improvement in shifting, next was the Spectro and a further improvement. I swear it revs quicker now too.

Nothing like a seat-o-the-pants dyno!

AMSOL must be the most expensive motorcycle oil in NZ.

Flip
5th April 2011, 21:49
Hell caught between Amsol and the Mobil rep having a discussion about their flag ship oils. Its a bit like trying to reconcile the Israelis and the Palestinians.

The Amsol paper is compelling reading but it was presented by an oil company (who we all know and trust) showing a set of tests of Amsol that Amsol know their oils are strong at. To me the only real tests are the set of SAE tests that run a standard industry motor to destruction, hot, cold and upside down. All the other tests are theoretical at best or at worst misleading. Take for example the ball wear test, this is a test for EP gear oils. Reporting on the Zinc is meaningless because the Zinc is part of the emulsifier-detergent package, in reality the zinc pollutes the catalytic converter on modern euro motors, all oils after SG have to be low metal oils. So high zinc are not good to use in say new BMW's? Reporting on the TBN test for a synthetic oil is also meaningless because if you leave a oil in until it becomes acidic well you should have know better.

The moment triplezee said " The synthetic oil is still OK its the filter system that lets it down by not fully cleaning the oil. Using a bypass filter system you could run 100,000km just changing filters and topping up at filter time." I switched off. I have a couple of big pistons on my desk from a very expensive $250,000 boat motor because the operator brought into the same argument and fitted a special sub micron bypass filter. The oil was sooo acidic that his pistons were dissolving, and he is now trying to take the filter supplier to court. He did however save some money not buying much oil.

I would be temped to give Amsol a go except I won't buy any oil I cant get easily when I am away from home on a trip (rule 2). I am actually a bit of a Mobil 1 fan but don't tell the Mobil rep (I get it cheap), one race car and the Hog runs on it, but almost every other vehicle I have uses bulk Valvolene SG 20w50 mixed fleet lube.

Uncle Flips lube rules are:
1, Change the oil regularly.
2, Don't use a oil you can't easily buy in most places.
3, Don't buy a oil because it has flash packaging, the oil goes in the motor the packaging goes in the bin.
4, Change your oil regally, it is cheap.
5, Read and understand the SAE service classifications for lubricants. Don't get into the marketing hype.
6, Buy in bulk to save money and change it regually.

Grumph
6th April 2011, 09:44
Agree completely...

Only proviso I'd make is that while the Valvoline fleet is very good stuff, it's a high detergent oil also. Not a problem if you realise this when changing to it and plan your first couple of oil and filter changes accordingly.

CookMySock
6th April 2011, 10:44
Oddly, many engines and transmissions are quite oil-sensitive. I had always use X brand oil and I thought I'd give my bike a treat and upgraded to K brand synthetic oil and instantly the gearbag started finding false neutrals everywhere.. ick! I went back to X brand non-synthetic and its been mint ever since.

Another example was a diesel engine I changed to a different brand (similar oil ratings) and it completely freaked out and it missed at idle and smoked like a bitch!! Go figure!

Everyone uses different oils. The only synthetic oil I use now is 2 stroke oil, where it makes a huge difference - four stroke engines don't seem to care too much.

CookMySock
6th April 2011, 10:49
[...] Reporting on the TBN test for a synthetic oil is also meaningless because if you leave a oil in until it becomes acidic well you should have know better. [.....] I have a couple of big pistons on my desk [.....] The oil was sooo acidic that his pistons were dissolving:blink:

I used to use Amsoil exclusively, but only use the 2T now - it's magic shit.

F5 Dave
6th April 2011, 10:49
seat of pants impressions of consumables are always clouded. new oil after old oil, new tyres after old tyres, new brake pads after shot ones. Hardly a fair contest + you've bought something new & flashy. It must be better to justify your choice.

[edit] I will agree with some of Steve's observations, I've had clutches on 2 strokes that favoured or disliked other oils. I've also had clutches start to slip imediately after changing to a particular brand. Well they could have been on the limit of worn. but 3 times?? (I got it cheap for a well known MC specific brand). They used a lot of zinc apparently.

Quasievil
6th April 2011, 10:50
four stroke engines don't seem to care too much.

:facepalm:Oh, ok, I will let the Mobil technical people know that the last 30 years of development was pointless causer you said so bwaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh



*jokes DB just jokes*

F5 Dave
6th April 2011, 11:15
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> I think what gets lost is that in all the usually oil bigotry is that the big evil oil companies doubtlessly employ scientists to analyse not only their own oil, but competitors. They will know how they are produced so there is little doubt that through new R&D, research of competitors & plain old espionage the larger companies won’t be missing a trick.

Your best hope if you were a smaller specialist company say Motul for example, would be if you were owned by some enormous evil entity, like Exxon who didn’t mind you being a niche market provider.

TripleZee Dyno
6th April 2011, 12:49
The moment triplezee said " The synthetic oil is still OK its the filter system that lets it down by not fully cleaning the oil. Using a bypass filter system you could run 100,000km just changing filters and topping up at filter time." I switched off. I have a couple of big pistons on my desk from a very expensive $250,000 boat motor because the operator brought into the same argument and fitted a special sub micron bypass filter. The oil was sooo acidic that his pistons were dissolving, and he is now trying to take the filter supplier to court. He did however save some money not buying much oil.


Without knowing all the facts, I would have thought with a $250,000 marine engine regular oil analysis would have been part of the maintenance program.
Fitting a bypass system doesn’t mean you forget about the oil and filters.

BTW I’m not an Amsoil rep, I sell Amsoil, Mobil1 and Valvoline mineral
I prefer to use Amsoil in my vehicles because it works for me.

As I said before to each his own
cheers

Quasievil
6th April 2011, 13:11
Without knowing all the facts, I would have thought with a $250,000 marine engine regular oil analysis would have been part of the maintenance program.


Hell yes to that Triple Zee youre nuts if you dont do a regular test on your oil with that kind of equipment cost.

MSTRS
6th April 2011, 13:23
Why would you, if you'd been assured that oil change intervals could be massively extended just by fitting a particular type of filter...

bogan
6th April 2011, 16:12
Interesting stuff. A few questions, if you run top notch oil in an old engine for 15,000km, as opposed to medium quality stuff for 5000km, is there more danger of particulate (I dunno the proper term, tiny bits of cylinder wear etc) buildup in the oil which doesn't get contained by the filter going round and doing some damage?

And a mostly unrelated question, overly rich tuned engines get fuel in the oil, (which degrades it I heard) as I'm barely started the current lot of oil, and mid-tuning my bike, it has been running a bit rich i think, do I have to change out the oil? Was rich enough to make it misfire a bit for around 15min, and probably an hours riding fine but possibly a little rich.

Paul in NZ
6th April 2011, 18:03
I dont care what oil anyone runs really, it matters more that its changed regularly ....

Most folks on KB could run synth easily but some of us run really old machines without oil filters and some are even older. The triumph originally had only a sludge trap which is a centrifugal trap in the crank designed to catch bits and let em sit there until you next have the crank out. If you run high detergent oils in these old cranks they can loosen up the sediments and bad things happen plus thy tend to hold the crud in suspension and it doesnt settle like it should. hence, I've installed a full flow filter in the return line. I run a penrite gas or diesel oil.

Old roller cranks can skid on synth oils (its too slippery) but these are bikes waaaay older than anyone here cares about.

No matter WHAT the maker says - IMHO, if you want the vehicle to last outside the warrenty, 15,000km is too long between changes. I've seen 2 modern cars destroy big ends this month because the owner assumed sythetic oil lasts forever... (dumbarse)

Flip
6th April 2011, 18:31
I personally hate it when oil manufacturers say you can extend the oil service life by using x brand. It cost Mobil heaps when they made these claims of Mobil1 20+ years ago.

In a perfect world a oil filter takes out the big bits and the small bits that are left over are so small they can do no damage, however oil filters are not perfect, especially the low quality ones, they filter most of the large particles out and block up doing so until the internal bypass begins to open then do nothing. When does this happen? I don't know, it would depend on a great many factors. But if I was a reputable motor maker and I had little control over what oil and what after market oil filter was going to be used I would want my filters changed when they were at about 50% of the max contamination load. Just at the point the particles were beginning to slow down the oil flow. If I was a reputable motor maker that is.

Fuel dilution of lube oil is a problem, happens in old motors, motors that are used for start stop work and out of tune motors. Basically the fuel washes the oil off the bores and reduces the oils viscosity in the crank case in both cases increasing the wear in the motor. It is possible to vaporise the fuel that is dissolved in the oil by doing the occasional good long run.

Quasievil
6th April 2011, 18:31
No matter WHAT the maker says - IMHO, if you want the vehicle to last outside the warrenty, 15,000km is too long between changes. I've seen 2 modern cars destroy big ends this month because the owner assumed sythetic oil lasts forever... (dumbarse)

two things
1/ thats on the assumption that they actually have a synthetic oil (not a group III marketed as a synthetic)
2/ 15000kms is nothing, I change my Car 15000kms everytime on Mobil 1 5W-30

guess what, the engine is mint.

Flip
6th April 2011, 18:40
Old roller cranks can skid on synth oils (its too slippery) but these are bikes waaaay older than anyone here cares about.


I have had personal experience of this myself, but I can't positively say it was the oil, however the oil maker did pay for most of the repairs.

Also don't run synthetics in very old bikes, they are not compatible with the old natural rubber and felt seal materials.

I change the Mobil 1 oil in one of my cars at 15,000, only because it is the service interval. The bloody thing takes almost 6 liters. I don't think I would do that milage in a bike, the gear boxes are very good at chopping up the VI (viscosity index) additive and I always worry about the way bike oil thins with use. The VI is the stuff that makes a std 20 weight oil a 20W40, it looks like gorilla snot, it is not very shear stable.

jonbuoy
6th April 2011, 19:23
You can listen to the engine builders, tuners and peformance part manufacturers regarding break in oils and, ZDDP levels, flat tappet engines, ring seating etc... or you can listen to the oil manufacturers and sales reps. I listen to the engine builders and tuners.

Quasievil
6th April 2011, 19:26
I listen to the engine builders and tuners.

So do the oil companies otherwise you wouldn't have any oil of a modern standard.

roadracingoldfart
6th April 2011, 21:01
Bollocks me mateys, a fully synthetic only offers advantages, there are no disadvantages at all in running a synthetic in a engine of any age.
thats a fact.

Bollocks back at ya Quasi.

Quasievil
6th April 2011, 21:28
Bollocks back at ya Quasi.

YAAAAY KB Bollocks all round bro

im right tho:yes:

scumdog
6th April 2011, 21:36
In a perfect world a oil filter takes out the big bits and the small bits that are left over are so small they can do no damage, however oil filters are not perfect, especially the low quality ones, they filter most of the large particles out and block up doing so until the internal bypass begins to open then do nothing. When does this happen? I don't know, it would depend on a great many factors.
.

Hence why when I dump my oil - I also dump the oil filter.:yes:

Flip
6th April 2011, 21:54
Hence why when I dump my oil - I also dump the oil filter.:yes:

Exactly what i do as well.

AllanB
6th April 2011, 22:51
Hence why when I dump my oil - I also dump the oil filter.:yes:

Ditto. Cheap insurance.

BUT - there is a pile of posts on the webby wanking on about oil filters working better after X amount of time and you should change the filter every second oil change.

Actually Quasi you should find the fact sheet about synthetics and post it - to do with the base grade or something I recall. They are a bit like poos - all poos stink but there are different things in them that make them stink so if you want a really stinky poo you need to start with the high quality base product.

Owl
6th April 2011, 23:08
The VI is the stuff that makes a std 20 weight oil a 20W40, it looks like gorilla snot, it is not very shear stable.

Isn't that related to mineral only? Doesn't synthetic work backward, starting with (in this case) a 40 weight and naturally flowing lower without additives?

ellipsis
7th April 2011, 00:27
...'right then...think I get the gist..all the "good oil", to coin phrase...confused..Nah, not at all...yeah, I got the first heat cycle out of the way up Okuti Valley , Grumph, and then a couple down at Baileys Road, Birdlings Flat way...box full of good ole mineral oil...I got it all seated well enough...my question on the Elf oil is more to do with me not having my glasses with me when a trusted mate in these things put the shit in my hand and said, "thats the shit you want"...I get home and the only words on the bottle that aren't..parlez vous francaise, are "Synthetic Fortified Oil"...is this shit a synthetic oil or a mineral based oil with high tech banana skins in it...should have been the question...really...on consideration...

Grumph
7th April 2011, 05:49
Ya can't go past the fortified banana skins IMO...

Quasievil
7th April 2011, 07:46
Ditto.
Actually Quasi you should find the fact sheet about synthetics and post it - to do with the base grade or something I recall. They are a bit like poos - all poos stink but there are different things in them that make them stink so if you want a really stinky poo you need to start with the high quality base product.

This one?
this is a basic way to view how and from what synthetics are made from, I could ramble about this for hours I already have somewhere here.

<a href="http://s262.photobucket.com/albums/ii104/Quasizxr/?action=view&amp;current=oil-refining-diagram.gif" target="_blank"><img src="http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii104/Quasizxr/oil-refining-diagram.gif" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Paul in NZ
7th April 2011, 08:07
two things
1/ thats on the assumption that they actually have a synthetic oil (not a group III marketed as a synthetic)
2/ 15000kms is nothing, I change my Car 15000kms everytime on Mobil 1 5W-30

guess what, the engine is mint.

Meh! All our cars do big miles, we use good oil every 5k and oil and filter every 10k. It takes me less than 20 mins to change the oil and never had a problem. I still believed (based on observation) that in a vehicle that runs a cam chain or similar (camry balancer shaft) 15K is too long...

Paul in NZ
7th April 2011, 08:07
Ya can't go past the fortified banana skins IMO...

Agreed - bananas especially find them very useful.

Quasievil
7th April 2011, 08:18
Meh! All our cars do big miles, we use good oil every 5k and oil and filter every 10k. It takes me less than 20 mins to change the oil and never had a problem. I still believed (based on observation) that in a vehicle that runs a cam chain or similar (camry balancer shaft) 15K is too long...

yeah sure we all do big miles these days I agree.
The Fact is, that Synthetic oil does not break down as quickly as a Mineral based oil, the reason for this is the impurities present in a mineral oil help break the oil down very quickly, if compared to a synthetic.
The other point is that a synthetic protects the engine at start up better than a mineral based oil due to is better VI and typical additive package, the majority of engine wear occurs at this critical start up moment.
It surprises alot of people when I tell them that their isnt actually little people and molecules with happy faces having a cleaning party in their engines, the only layer between the surfaces in the engine is oil and thats all that will provide boundry lubrication, synthetics do this better, its not debatable its a true fact.
In saying all this we sell more mineral and semi synthetic products than anything of course, the only reason for this is price.

STUFF
7th April 2011, 08:37
hydrocracking base oil is volatile. it's crap.

Arguments on the quality of oil is good. But personally, I'm sure, the regulations on an oil change is not for nothing is targeted by the manufacturer. And the oil filter should be changed too! There were several cases from my practice, after the winter valve sticky into the oil filter. Replace the engine. Without the oil accelerate twice, in the neutral and 12 RPM ... for this engine is not needed more oil .... Even motul 300V ...)):yes:. Result of cheap oil and cheap filters.

Paul in NZ
7th April 2011, 08:55
yeah sure we all do big miles these days I agree.
The Fact is, that Synthetic oil does not break down as quickly as a Mineral based oil, the reason for this is the impurities present in a mineral oil help break the oil down very quickly, if compared to a synthetic.
The other point is that a synthetic protects the engine at start up better than a mineral based oil due to is better VI and typical additive package, the majority of engine wear occurs at this critical start up moment.
It surprises alot of people when I tell them that their isnt actually little people and molecules with happy faces having a cleaning party in their engines, the only layer between the surfaces in the engine is oil and thats all that will provide boundry lubrication, synthetics do this better, its not debatable its a true fact.
In saying all this we sell more mineral and semi synthetic products than anything of course, the only reason for this is price.

Oh yes - price is king... Never fails to amaze me why people purchase vehicles they have no hope of servicing properly.

Also agree with the service length being longer (although HOW long is a matter for debate).

The reason people used Castrol R in race bikes was that it lasted longer in hotter environments. Synth is similar...

Quasievil
7th April 2011, 09:12
Oh yes - price is king... Never fails to amaze me why people purchase vehicles they have no hope of servicing properly.

Also agree with the service length being longer (although HOW long is a matter for debate).

The reason people used Castrol R in race bikes was that it lasted longer in hotter environments. Synth is similar...

Yes it should also be noted here when talking about how long between oil changes that other factors are important to consider, for example, enviromental (dusty for example) as well as quality of fuel and frequency of servicing.

roadracingoldfart
7th April 2011, 19:07
YAAAAY KB Bollocks all round bro

im right tho:yes:

Ahhh nay sir , nay.
Try using a sy-pathetic oil in a 1980s Honda multi and wringing its neck at a track .
Ill supply the oil and you pay for the engine, lets have some fun.

Grumph
7th April 2011, 19:45
Ahhh nay sir , nay.
Try using a sy-pathetic oil in a 1980s Honda multi and wringing its neck at a track .
Ill supply the oil and you pay for the engine, lets have some fun.

Rather a special case there....I heard the pom works team only got them reliable by using castor base...
What do you think would go first, primary chain or big ends ?

AllanB
7th April 2011, 19:46
Ahhh nay sir , nay.
Try using a sy-pathetic oil in a 1980s Honda multi and wringing its neck at a track .
Ill supply the oil and you pay for the engine, lets have some fun.

The only issues early on with synthetics were some oil seals weaping. All seals are now designed to cope with synthetics. There was a legal thing about it in the USA and seals had to conform - can't remember from what year.

Other than the posibility of the above oil seal issue I can't not see a reason a synthetic oil would 'harm' your engine as you imply. Care to explain.

Alecold
7th April 2011, 20:13
No mention of additives has been made on this thread. I have a good stock of "Bardahl" oil and fuel additive and wonder if advisable to add to mineral oil. I realize Bardahl is a extreme friction substance and there may not be such conditions in a modern engine.

Quasievil
7th April 2011, 20:25
No mention of additives has been made on this thread. I have a good stock of "Bardahl" oil and fuel additive and wonder if advisable to add to mineral oil. I realize Bardahl is a extreme friction substance and there may not be such conditions in a modern engine.

the best thing to do with oil additives is to take them down to the local refuse centre for suitable dumping

Reputable oil companies have balanced the additive package through high level chemical engineering and testing if you then go and use a additive "to get the product right", ask yourself what do you think they forgot in the oils engineering ? t and what are you "putting" in your engine.....exactly, and if you do use a additive how are you ensuring the additive is going to keep the correct balance in the engineering of the oil?
I find it interesting that the Bardahl brand also sells oil additives, why?

Flip
7th April 2011, 22:22
No mention of additives has been made on this thread. I have a good stock of "Bardahl" oil and fuel additive and wonder if advisable to add to mineral oil. I realize Bardahl is a extreme friction substance and there may not be such conditions in a modern engine.

Hell keep friction modifiers or boundary lubricants far far away from motorcycle oils.

F5 Dave
8th April 2011, 10:27
No mention of additives has been made on this thread. . . .
Actually I mentioned Slick 50 a few pages back.


I realize Bardahl is a extreme friction substance and there may not be such conditions in a modern engine.
Or any engine. usually the tests they are so good at are totally inappropriate, but make it look like you should spend money on their product.

As I also said - & I'm not claiming to be an expert here, just outstandingly good at pointing out the blindingly obvious:blink: but large oil companies know what is in other manufacturers oils & all the snake oil additives out there. They aren't missing a trick that these additive companies have somehow stumbled upon.

Teflon
8th April 2011, 14:44
The only issues early on with synthetics were some oil seals weaping. All seals are now designed to cope with synthetics. There was a legal thing about it in the USA and seals had to conform - can't remember from what year.

Other than the posibility of the above oil seal issue I can't not see a reason a synthetic oil would 'harm' your engine as you imply. Care to explain.

I'm no oil engineer.

But, are you talking about oil seal swell problems with older synthetics? I think they have fixed this problem with modern additives and base oils..

I use Nulon mixed fleet oil. Zddp is 1385 ppm which is pretty good.. It's not the best oil out there, but good enough for the average rider like myself for street use.

If i did a lot of track days or was a hard rider, Mobil 1 for sure..

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Quasievil
8th April 2011, 16:29
I'm no oil engineer.

But, are you talking about oil seal swell problems with older synthetics? I think they have fixed this problem with modern additives and base oils..



I spoke with one of our technical engineers in Melbourne a few weeks back about this very subject, he mentioned to me that the testing procedure with seals is extremely extensive with every type known tested for compatibility with the products/additives
I have no doubt that this is the case.