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erik
11th November 2005, 17:34
I still haven't sorted the Zeal out, it's been out of action for the last couple of weeks now :(.
Anyway, I've determined it's not the plugs or coils, it's not the airbox. So I'm currently thinking that the fuel pump might be dodgy. The bike idles fine but when I try to accelerate, it loses power and runs badly.

Does anyone have a fuel pump from an fzx 250, fzr250 or some other pump that might do the trick for just a test? I just want to swap another pump in there to see if it improves things. I don't actually know how critical the fuel pump pressures will be or how much they vary between bikes.

I checked the price of a new fuel pump, $300 :doh: (although Henderson Motorcycles said they could give me a $40 discount on that. Still it isn't cheap).
It would be good to be able to try another pump in there before coughing up the money as I'm not 100% sure it is the pump.
I still have to try wreckers to see if they have any suitable pumps.

Here is the original thread: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=19298

SARGE
11th November 2005, 17:51
I still haven't sorted the Zeal out, it's been out of action for the last couple of weeks now :(.
Anyway, I've determined it's not the plugs or coils, it's not the airbox. So I'm currently thinking that the fuel pump might be dodgy. The bike idles fine but when I try to accelerate, it loses power and runs badly.

Does anyone have a fuel pump from an fzx 250, fzr250 or some other pump that might do the trick for just a test? I just want to swap another pump in there to see if it improves things. I don't actually know how critical the fuel pump pressures will be or how much they vary between bikes.

I checked the price of a new fuel pump, $300 :doh: (although Henderson Motorcycles said they could give me a $40 discount on that. Still it isn't cheap).
It would be good to be able to try another pump in there before coughing up the money as I'm not 100% sure it is the pump.
I still have to try wreckers to see if they have any suitable pumps.

Here is the original thread: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=19298


Erik

that should be the same pump as the FZR250..from what it sounds like.. could be the carbs too( check that if the pump dont fix it.)

Mattyc
11th November 2005, 18:00
I would have thought that your bike would have a pulse pump for the fuel, driven off a vaccum feed from one of the intakes, not an electric one, weird, that one does look electric (unless a vaccum line is underneath there somewhere)

Try calling Henry at Takanini Motorcycle Wreckers

erik
11th November 2005, 18:11
I would have thought that your bike would have a pulse pump for the fuel, driven off a vaccum feed from one of the intakes, not an electric one, weird, that one does look electric (unless a vaccum line is underneath there somewhere)

Try calling Henry at Takanini Motorcycle Wreckers

Yep, it's an electric pump. Looking in the FZR400 manual, the fzr400 pump looks the same as well. I didn't realise there were vacuum driven pumps on bikes (but I haven't looked at many bikes).

Mattyc
11th November 2005, 18:13
you could ask InDeSkyz to try her fuel pump ? I work with her, she also has a Zeal, she has had quite a few issues with it, but may let you borrow it to test if that is the problem

forty two
11th November 2005, 20:22
Hiya Erik.
Takanini Motorcycle Wreckers, $70 2nd hand approx 6 weeks ago. Apparently they were a bit of a problem.
In the meantime, try taking the outlet off the pump and switching on the key, just watch out as there will be quite a stream of gas if it's working correctly.

chickenfunkstar
11th November 2005, 20:35
I've had the fuel pump on my old fzr die on me, it looks to be the same as the one in your picture. However it wouldn't start or run at all when the fuel pump wasn't working. Once it died just as I pulled out to overtake a car.:doh: It was either going or not going, as opposed to sort of going which you've described.

Motu
11th November 2005, 20:40
Is that a pump? I don't see any wires.Take it out and bench test it,pressure and flow....try to make it fail.Is it a rotary or pulse pump - bring it to me and I'll run it on a scope,see what's happening inside....

erik
11th November 2005, 23:57
Hiya Erik.
Takanini Motorcycle Wreckers, $70 2nd hand approx 6 weeks ago. Apparently they were a bit of a problem.
In the meantime, try taking the outlet off the pump and switching on the key, just watch out as there will be quite a stream of gas if it's working correctly.

That sounds a lot better than $260.


I've had the fuel pump on my old fzr die on me, it looks to be the same as the one in your picture. However it wouldn't start or run at all when the fuel pump wasn't working. Once it died just as I pulled out to overtake a car. It was either going or not going, as opposed to sort of going which you've described.

yeah, that's the thing. I dunno if the fuel pump can only be part going (like maybe not developing enough pressure when the throttle is open) or if when they die, they die completely.


Is that a pump? I don't see any wires.Take it out and bench test it,pressure and flow....try to make it fail.Is it a rotary or pulse pump - bring it to me and I'll run it on a scope,see what's happening inside....
It's got wires, you just can't see them in that photo.
It's a pulse pump. The attached pic is from the FZR400 manual, the Zeal pump looks the same and I assume has the same internals.
I've kind of tested the flow, I disconnected the fuel line from the carbs and had ran it into a container for a few seconds. But I really need to test it under pressure, which gets more complicated. Thanks for your offer, I'll keep it in mind.

Brian d marge
12th November 2005, 15:12
Just a thought Eric
Have a look at the car world ...The way the factorys work is they go to a smaller factory and say I want a pump to do this job and I want to pay X amount for it ,,,
So you MAY find that some of the smaller cars use the same or similar pumps ...AnD will possibly be a damn site cheaper than MC parts ,,,

and Example of what I mean is Triumph bonnie,,,the front pads a MC and cost MC prices but mini cooper pads are the same and you get 4 in a box ,,for a hell of a lot cheaper..

Stephen

R1madness
14th November 2005, 08:50
A pump from a early 80s honda accord will work fine. the hoses are a little bigger but not a problem. you will need to change the wiring plug too but you should be able to get one for stuff all from a wrecker.

Mattyc
15th November 2005, 10:58
A pump from a early 80s honda accord will work fine. the hoses are a little bigger but not a problem. you will need to change the wiring plug too but you should be able to get one for stuff all from a wrecker.

Have you tried it man? If So Sweet, but my thoughts A car (1600cc) would need a hell of a lot more fuel pressure than a 250, and id hate to see poor Erik blowing his carbs inside out, if you were to run a bigger pump a fuel pressure regulator may be the go.

Id go see Motu and get him to test your pressure on a scope, also finding out what psi the fuel should be, then you can run a larger pump and a regulator to regulate it down to the correct psi, id imagine the pressure being between 6-12 psi or so, make sure you dont try and EFI pump :P they will be up in the 40 -80 psi range

Motu
15th November 2005, 11:24
I've got a Purolator pulse pump here,but it puts out 4 to 8 psi,you only want about 2 psi for a bike.You can give it a try if you like Erik,it might be prone to floading that's all....a bit big too,but if it's only temp to test it's no big deal.

erik
15th November 2005, 12:20
So many options. Another kb member has pm'd me saying he might have a new fzr250 pump lying around. and I was planning to take the bike to KK's this week to let him have a look and maybe try a car pump if he's got one.

Now that you say it's supposed to be about 2psi, I reckon I could use one of my carb balancer gauges (they read small pressures as well as vacuums) and rig up a can with a couple of openings and a restriction on one to test the pressure and flow... sounds like fun :)
But I've got 4 exams next week and lots of study to do so I should probably leave things till after exams!
Cheers everyone.

R1madness
15th November 2005, 18:38
Have you tried it man? If So Sweet, but my thoughts A car (1600cc) would need a hell of a lot more fuel pressure than a 250, and id hate to see poor Erik blowing his carbs inside out, if you were to run a bigger pump a fuel pressure regulator may be the go.

Id go see Motu and get him to test your pressure on a scope, also finding out what psi the fuel should be, then you can run a larger pump and a regulator to regulate it down to the correct psi, id imagine the pressure being between 6-12 psi or so, make sure you dont try and EFI pump :P they will be up in the 40 -80 psi range

It worked fine on FZR400s and 250s (both prone to pump failure) haven't tried it on a Zeal but dont see it being a problem. I see your point just remember to not get one from a fuel injected car.... now that would cause problems.

erik
4th December 2005, 14:04
Update:

Made a container thing and hooked the fuel pump and a pressure gauge to it. The pump pumped fuel into the container and cut out at about 2 - 2.5psi, which is what Motu said it should be.
So I'm now thinking the pump is ok.

My attention turned back to the cam chain. It had been quite noisey earlier in the year and the cam chain tensioner spring wasn't pushing it any tighter. So since the cam chain tensioner still had a lot of available travel (lots of teeth left on the ratchet thing) I manually pushed it in another click and the noise died away.
Anyway, I checked the cam timing, lining the dots on the cam shafts up with the locating marks on the cam caps and measured how many degrees (4.5) past TDC the crankshaft had rotated.
So now I'm hoping the poor running is due to a stretched cam chain and late valve timing. Dunno if 4.5 is enough to make a difference, but the cam chain should probably be done anyway, so I reckon it's worth a go.

DEATH_INC.
4th December 2005, 17:25
No,4.5deg won't do it ,you can go a lot further than this and it'll still run fine,just be gutless.
What've you tried so far? It sounds like a weak spark or a carb problem to me.
BTW if you wanna try a pump bring it over and I've got a fzr1000 pump on another bike we can raid to try if you want.

erik
4th December 2005, 18:52
No,4.5deg won't do it ,you can go a lot further than this and it'll still run fine,just be gutless.
What've you tried so far? It sounds like a weak spark or a carb problem to me.
BTW if you wanna try a pump bring it over and I've got a fzr1000 pump on another bike we can raid to try if you want.
Darn, I was hoping it might be the chain...

So far I've tried:

Changing the plugs - no effect.
I've measured the coil's resistance, found that there was a bit of corrosion in one of the plug caps which increased the resistance heaps, so I cleaned that and the resistance returned to normal. - no effect.
I've checked the fuel pump pressure like I described above - seemed ok.


Doesn't seem like I've tried much. :blink:
I might take you up on that offer as soon as I've got the new cam chain and exhaust shims in.

DEATH_INC.
6th December 2005, 19:03
While you got it apart clean the carbs thoroughly,pull all the jets and clean out under them etc....just clean them all spotless.

Mattyc
6th December 2005, 19:48
The fuel pump should have heaps of flow for that bike.. 2.5psi should be sweet
may sound silly but have you compression tested the engine :doobey: :doobey:
check your needles and seats, check that all float levels are set the same, they may be non adjustable, but it may have a bendable brass tab or arms they need to be near identical, and have to let the bowl fill fully. Check the float itself, if its brass it could have a leak, ive only ever seen one, the plastic floats ive never heard of one fucking out . air compressor is your friend here blow the carb out , jets etc dry it all out and make sure the float bowls all seal.

once back together id have the carbs balanced, if you dont have the little flow tool or dont want to pay someone, a farm type way is wind all the air screw right in, counting the turns, comparing each one generally you can get an idea as to what it should be, turn each screw out the same amount and use that for a starting point. thats pretty simple shit you may have already done

erik
6th December 2005, 22:11
Aww man, I was hoping to avoid pulling the carbs apart. I've had them apart and cleaned them just under 2 years ago and it's not my favourite job :p

I've compression tested the engine, it got pretty much exactly 100psi on all cylinders (with the engine hot after running it for a bit). I realise this is kinda low, but last time I checked the compression (with engine cold) I got values ranging from 82psi to 94psi (before I did the valve shims) so I don't think the compression has changed for the worse (unless there should be a larger difference between hot and cold).

I'll check the float levels before I pull the carbs apart. Haven't done it before, but I read you can connect a small piece of clear tube to the float bowl draining tube and see where the level comes up to (I guess let the pump prime the carbs then turn it off before connecting the tubes...). The floats are plastic.
I've got a set of carb vacuum gauges, last time I checked the carbs were balanced ok.

Motu
7th December 2005, 06:58
I'm impressed with the length you go to in making your little tests Erik - most people just put a new pump on then say ''that didn't fix it''.But you need to test flow as well - flow and pressure are related,but to have one doesn't mean you have the other.Ultimatly you need to test it can flow the required amount at the pressure you need,sometimes it can make the pressure but not maintain flow.Try and make the pump fail by moving it around,checking for faulty wiring etc.Most pumps fail on startup,that's when the biggest load is applied...make sure it starts everytime.

Mattyc
7th December 2005, 07:19
I'm impressed with the length you go to in making your little tests Erik - most people just put a new pump on then say ''that didn't fix it''

Yes kudos to you EriK you dont give up easilly :chase:
The Flow test Motu talks of it not at all a silly idea at all.

another thing, which you have probably already checked - there are no cracks in the rubber where the carbs clamp on to be causing a vaccum leak

DEATH_INC.
7th December 2005, 20:00
A little trick I learnt to balance the carbs is to use a small dril bit(the blank end...),wind the idle screw open and use it like a feeler gauge,start on the carb with the idle screw then adjust the others to the same.Not the perfect way but not too far off either.

erik
10th December 2005, 20:55
Thanks Motu and Mattyc. :)

Thanks Death for the pump, you're right, it's not the pump...

So I've started begrudgingly pulling the carbs apart. The main reason I dislike pulling carbs apart is all the cleaning you have to do with kerosene. Hopefully all the seals will reseal when I put them back together. Carb seals are bloody expensive.

So far I've cleaned them and pulled one carb apart.
I noticed when cleaning them and emptying the float bowls that the first bit of fuel that came out was darker coloured and also there were little bits of stuff that looked a bit like jelly. I think the darker stuff and gelatinous stuff might've been partly water judging from how it felt and since it didn't catch fire when I tried setting it alight...
There was a fair bit of sediment in the float bowl that I pulled apart, have only looked in one so far. I don't kniow what the stuff is or how it got there. I recently replaced the fuel filter (like a few months ago). My dad reckons it might be stuff that got in through the float bowl air vents?

Anyway, I'll work more on it tomorrow. Time to have beer and relax now. :drinkup:

Sketchy_Racer
10th December 2005, 23:19
well,,me personnaly, that looks to be the prob.

There shouldnt be any crap at all in the carbs, so..... get the air compresor and blow out the whole carb. Then what i do is get some fuse wire in the suitable thickness then run it up and down the jets a couple of times to get any junk out, then blow it out with air, repeat. The fuse wire is hard enough to get any crap out but soft enough to not scratch the jets.

Cheers, Glenn

FlyingDutchMan
11th December 2005, 10:14
Looks like it could be rust from the petrol tank. I had a really rusty tank and it caused all sorts of problems including hydrolock. I fixed a couple of weeks ago (lots of hydrocholoric acid and a POR-15 kit) and its been running much better since. Rust seems to have the ability of getting through everything including paper fuel filters.

FROSTY
11th December 2005, 10:24
Eric--Mate stuff the Kero --Take ya carb set round my place and use my air gun to blow the carbs out.
Once theyre clean as a whistle -id fit an inline filter AND -drain your tank and give it a bit of a wash out--I'd suggest the water is out of ya tank so cleaning ya carbs will only be a temp fix if ya dont clean ya tank out

erik
11th December 2005, 15:30
Eric--Mate stuff the Kero --Take ya carb set round my place and use my air gun to blow the carbs out.
Once theyre clean as a whistle -id fit an inline filter AND -drain your tank and give it a bit of a wash out--I'd suggest the water is out of ya tank so cleaning ya carbs will only be a temp fix if ya dont clean ya tank out
Thanks for the offer, Frosty. I actually switched to using engine degreaser, rinsing the parts in a bucket of water and then drying them with an airgun (I bought a small compressor not long ago - bloody useful :yes: ). They're all done now, I just want to check the float levels then put them back in the bike.

I had a look in the tank and there's crap in there. It looks like dirty water. I looked in there before and thought it looked a bit funny, but didn't realise it was water in there :doh: .

I'm hoping the tank hasn't started to rust and I'll just have to clean it out.
It's a bit annoying about the filter, I put a new one (genuine yamaha even) in a few months ago. I'll just get an aftermarket filter next.

(In the photo looking into the tank, the bottom of the tank is on an angle and the line between the dark stuff and clear steel is the edge of the cruddy water.)

FROSTY
11th December 2005, 19:47
Id apply the same principle to cleaning out ya tank
get every last drop of that crud out

erik
11th December 2005, 20:10
Update:

There is rust in the tank :(
It's not really rusty, but there is some.

I've found a thread about fixing rusty tanks:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=5097

Looks like the POR15 stuff may be the way to go. But I'm not sure if I should go the whole hog and seal the tank or if I should just remove the rust...
Plus I don't think I'll be able to get it all done in time for the taupo trackday if I try to use the sealer stuff.

The fuel filter on it now is a paper one, but looking at it I think it should be replaced. The aftermarket filter I saw at Mt Eden Motorcycles was a mesh one I think. Anyone know how they compare to the paper ones? The paper one I got was genuine yamaha and cost $20 which is pretty steep compared to the aftermarket filter.

FROSTY
11th December 2005, 20:28
Eric-mate just do the fish tank stone bit--DO NOT do the por bit or ya wont be at the trackday

Motu
11th December 2005, 20:31
Go to Partmaster and get some Gunk Carbcleaner,it's the best I've ever used,and I've tried them all.There is not usualy much space on a bike,but there are some car fuel filters out there with a foam water trap and a magnet to trap rust particles.BNT used to do those,but I haven't seen them for awhile.

erik
11th December 2005, 20:55
Eric-mate just do the fish tank stone bit--DO NOT do the por bit or ya wont be at the trackday
Gotcha. That saves me a bit of stress trying to decide what to do :)
I'll raid the fish tank tomorrow... ;)



Go to Partmaster and get some Gunk Carbcleaner,it's the best I've ever used,and I've tried them all.There is not usualy much space on a bike,but there are some car fuel filters out there with a foam water trap and a magnet to trap rust particles.BNT used to do those,but I haven't seen them for awhile.

Thanks for the tips. Are you suggesting the Gunk Carbcleaner for cleaning out the tank or just as a general carb cleaner recommendation?
I'll check out BNT as well.

erik
12th December 2005, 21:51
Update:
Got some fish tank stones, put them in the tank, shook it around a lot, flushed it out with water, repeated the above procedure.
There's still a few stones in there jammed in the tapered welded joint, but I guess won't do any harm for now.
I dried the tank out as best I could with an air compressor and a hot air gun. Yes I know it's dangerous using a hot air gun.
Then I sloshed some kerosene around in tank in the hope that it will slow any further rust for the time being.

I won't mention dropping my torch in the tank and trying to fish it out... :doh: