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bluninja
9th March 2003, 12:49
Just thought I'd pull this out of the cops thread....

Denill proposes that dirbike riding makes people more competent on road bikes. Whilst I agree that you will encounter many low grip situations that you will have to deal with, and that you can take a tumble without serious injury I don't believe that the skills of dirtbike riding are directly transferable to the road. Here's my reasoning.

1) You don't learn any traffic/hazard awareness hooning across fields and through the woods.

2) You learn a rear brake bias to stopping; which is the opposite (for most road bikes) to road riding.

Yes you do get to learn good throttle control and a sense of the grip available. Yes popping a wheelstand is easier to learn. But making you a good roadrider...no! Well no more than racing around a track makes you a good roadrider.

TTFN

bikerboy
9th March 2003, 14:43
I haven't ridden off road since I was much younger than Kwaka is now. However I think it would give you greater confidence ON a bike, more skill in controlling the bike, and possible reduce the sudden panic of a little slide, going into a corner a bit fast, improve you sense of balance etc.

While these things will not make you a better road rider per se, I think they would improve your ability to ride, therefore allowing your to concentrate more on the hazards side of things and less on tha actual riding.

Just my thoughts.:cool:

Skunk
9th March 2003, 18:48
I agree with bikerboy on this one...

Any confidence on a bike is good. I road rider who finds himself in a 'twitch' mid corner is more likely to do the wrong thing (shut the throttle) than a dirt rider (did something happen?) :D

denill
10th March 2003, 07:30
I wrote: a good off road rider makes a good road rider.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1960#post1960

 

But yeah, that has nothing to do with `road craft`. That could be another topic again.

 

Both those skills [ability AND craft] are required if a road rider is to keep out of [physical] trouble, especially if one is to ride briskly?

No matter how long you have ridden a bike for, everytime you ride you will learn something more - on or off road. One of the appeals of motorcycling is the high degree of rider input required and that follows, that if the rider input is faulty the result is not good!!

Thus every riding experience is honing the skills required to a greater OR lesser degree. Using the right gear for a corner, the right line etc.

I disagree that off road encourages rear braking only. The front brake is still the effective brake for stopping off road as it is in on-road braking. But just as in on-road, judicious use is the key.

Off-road, the back wheel will just spend most of the time in the air as in on-road hard braking. Off-road, the rear brake is probably mostly used for steering - not applicable to most on-road riders unless your name is Nori Haga.

bluninja
10th March 2003, 08:26
Hmmm. Most comments so far seem to opine that the skills learned controlling a dirtbike will reap benefits when grip is lost on the road. I do not disagree with this view. However should a good rider plan his route ahead making allowances for the grip expected, and not using all of it, the number of times to call on those skills should be very small. Isn't the art of riding to not place yourself in the hazardous situation rather than gain all the skills to get out of them?

An example: Riding to an intersection, a car approaches from a minor road indicating right. Do you:

a) Keep going cos your lights are on and he's bound to see you. If they do pull out you can use your lighting reflexes, and dirtbike honed skills to brake, swerve round the front or back of the car and be on your way.

b) Cover your brakes take a road position where they can see you best, and you have alternative escape routes. At the point of your minimum braking distance(which is a riding skill) you apply the brakes if you consider the car will pull out, and stop if needs be.

(In both options the use of the horn to attract attention is allowed..lol)

Both options require good riding skills, wherever they are learned. I know many riders who have used option a) and gone over the front of the car. I mentally resist option b) cos why should I have to stop? but hey I get to accelerate away hard once it's over :D

I learned to ride on a roadbike and not offroad(now it comes out....my way MUST be the best way:rolleyes:) but I have worked on my handling skills on tarmac. My one road accident was down to a mistake in my roadcraft, my riding skills allowed me to survive mys mistake. Roadcraft to one side, surely a better rider is one that hones their skills and works on their machine control, not just because they've ridden a dirtbike.

TTFN

Skunk
10th March 2003, 11:07
I learnt to ride on the road. I'm now trying off road.

Things I have learnt (from my off road riding):
Don't be unnerved by the bike moving under me :rolleyes:,
Bikes can jump :D,
Throttle control,
Clutch control,
Most important - confidence - crash a dirt bike and find YOUR limits without too much pain and or money.

Note that ALL of the above have nothing to do with roadcraft, the bike or the place (road/dirt). They are all to do with bike control and rider skills.

Yes a roadrider can learn the skills. So can a dirtrider. But by doing both you get a rounder set of skills and confidence.

My 2 cents worth... :D

Coldkiwi
10th March 2003, 11:39
This is a curious thread. I was thinking about the topic while watching the racing at Paeroa. I think it was the Formula 3's where there were motards racing. The blokes riding them were clearly ex-dirtbike riders (hanging the inside foot out through the corners!!) riding them like a dirt bike (with slicks:confused:)- but despite all this, they came in 1 and 2, pipping race preped zxr400's

Now, I dunno WHAT to make of that. A motard ridden like a dirtbike beats a road bike ridden like a trackbike on the road.. I mean what the *&^#????

denill
10th March 2003, 13:59
This is an interesting thread and at least we are thinking about `it` and that can`t be a bad thing, eh.

The ideas coming out in this thread are not diameterically opposed but there is certainly a difference of opinion.

In support of my statement that `a good off road rider will make a very good road rider`- Many if not most world class road racers have a MX background and in fact they use off-road riding as part of their traning regime.

So I reckon that the skills of handling/riding the bike are better than they would be with out the off-road experience. But that of course just deals with the small picture of riding skillfully but not the big picture of dealing with the peripheral dangers inherent in road-riding.

So yeah, you are right as road craft(iness) is probably the key ingredient to staying in one piece. There are many world class road racers who will not venture on to the road as they reckon it is too dangerous. And they may well be right. And in actual fact they may not be as good road-riders than some readers.

So the word good become subjective. The person may be able to ride the bike good on the road but not be a good road-rider.

Road craft(iness) is about: Every car in your immediate vicinity is out to get YOU - around every blind corner is a car on it`s wrong side or some loose shingle - etc etc. Or simply put -  `the supreme pessimist` road user.

wkid_one
10th March 2003, 14:12
My thoughts for what it is worth is that it has nothing to do with what you ride, but rather just riding in general.  You only get confidence and experience from encountering different situations.  Yes, dirt riding is likely to help in certain situations, but there are going to be events in road riding that will never happen if you are a dirt rider - that will catch you of guard.  The opposite it true.

A dirt rider of 10 years and a road rider of 10 years are likely to have the same confidence on a bike in the conditions they are used to riding.  Much like a soccer player won't have the 'match fitness' to play rugby, but is likely to pick it up quicker than someone who hasn't played.

I believe it is more about 'saddle time' than which is better for the other.

I play competitive snooker - and this also makes me a good pool player - BUT I will always get beaten by someone who plays competitive pool...same goes in riding.  It will help, but not be the be all and end all.

I think it is important for riders to ride dirt/enduro/motox etc and experience all facets of riding - as the skills learnt may help you when you hit gravel and the front or bike steps out..........neither is better - just different.

NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING......

A dirt rider who spends his whole time riding on a beach is going to struggle going trail riding.........

If you want to become a good road rider - nothing is better than riding on the roads!!!!

Skunk
10th March 2003, 14:31
Originally posted by wkid_one
NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING...
I see your point but think the fact that dirt is different to road means that it is 'value added road time'.

I used to 'freak' a little if the bike twitched while cornering (or slid a little). Since dirt riding that doesn't bother me so much.

I don't think this would have come about without the off-road riding... :confused:

bluninja
10th March 2003, 15:01
Hey guys some great stuff here, even though we have differing thoughts, opinions and experiences. One point I would like to pick up on from Wkid

NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING......

I disagree in that, a crap rider who doesn't seek to improve will still be a crap rider in 10, 20, 30 years time (assuming that they survive) no matter how many k's they cover on their chosen surface. To use the snooker analogy; you can play on snooker tables for 2 hours every day and not get any better. It is the quality of the practice, evaluation of mistakes, and the drive to improve that makes the time spent (doing anything really) a step to better things.

As for the supermotard thing, Paeroa in the new layout was stop and squirt for a lot of the track on quite bumpy surface. Ideal for supermotard.  At a tight bumpy track they are competitive with lightweight sportsbikes, with higher speed corners they lose out (eg Manfeild.....and they are gone at Pukekohe).

TTFN

Skunk
10th March 2003, 15:13
Originally posted by bluninja
NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING......

I disagree in that, a crap rider who doesn't seek to improve will still be a crap rider in 10, 20, 30 years time (assuming that they survive) no matter how many k's they cover on their chosen surface. It is the quality of the practice, evaluation of mistakes, and the drive to improve.
HEY! That's what I was thinking! :rolleyes:

Kiwibiker
11th March 2003, 04:19
Guys for what is it worth.. I believe that on road - off road riding complement one another...&nbsp;When&nbsp;in NZ I used to ride off road every weekend in the winter, and not so much on the road.. When I came across to the UK I stopped the off road riding for 4 years until six months ago (when I brought a Gas Gas&nbsp;EC300 and ride every Sunday in the Peak District), but continued to ride on road everyday...&nbsp; Since getting back into off road riding , visual responses, thinking patterns, and reactions have all increased to give me&nbsp;a lot more confidence on the road..<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Times; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">&nbsp;I think&nbsp;a lot of it is about feel, u know the way u feel the bike move on different&nbsp;surfaces, the way it feels when&nbsp;a strong cross wind is blowing, the way it feels when u wined the throttle on and send the node skyward, the way it feels when u throw it into&nbsp;a corner. .&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Both feel different&nbsp;but support the same neurons to make u ride better.</SPAN>

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Times; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">BTW I don't support the <B>NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING...... </B></SPAN>

<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Times; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><B>&nbsp;I&nbsp; know a&nbsp;guy that has been riding&nbsp;30 years, even raced in the IOM and he is a&nbsp;Fu*&amp;ing nightmare on the road.
</B></SPAN>

Coldkiwi
11th March 2003, 11:23
I personally think the&nbsp;riding licence regime in Auckland at least should be changed. If you can prove you rode every weekday from the suburbs to the city and back on a motorcyle and didn't get hit/killed you should get your full licence without doing a test!

I believe I am a reasonably good road rider (at least for my age) and fairly crafty/pessimistic because I do just that... riding 6 out of 7 days a week at least. I don't think it's just related to how long in years, but more how often and in what conditions.

Natural selection will eventually weed out the weak and helpless! (but sadly pluck out a few nice flowers on the way too)

wkid_one
11th March 2003, 15:05
To clarify all the nitpicking that goes on when someone provides a comment that doesn't agree with everyone elses......I ASSUMED we were talking about people who wish to IMPROVE their riding - in this case - time in the saddle is the most important thing - you can't improve your riding from books or videos - it is only about encoutering every possible situation and learning from it.&nbsp; Why do insurance companys load premiums for people under 25 - cause they have more accidents - why because they are less experienced (either to handle to situation or know when to hoon).&nbsp;

Your analogy is also bullshit - as if you just ride a dirt bike for a dirt bikes sake you will learn nothing - you have to know what you are trying to improve in your road riding skills and 'transfer' those skills to the road - Just riding a dirt bike is not enough.

Don't treat me as so stupid as to assume sitting on a bike is worthy enough to improve - yes we don't improve by OSMOSIS - I ASSUMED EVERYONE HERE WANTED TO IMPROVE THEIR RIDING - HENCE MY COMMENTS.

I didn't realise this site was so pendantic.

Why to GP/SBK riders do so well - they have put the hours in on the track - they know the track intimately and there bike.&nbsp; Yes you have to have goals in why you are riding - but I presumed this was a given - BUT THANKS FOR POINTING IT OUT - NO MATTER HOW OBVIOUS IT WAS.

My point is that you need to put in the time to improve - nothing beats it - there is no quick cure to becoming a good rider - it is just experience and confidence (in yourself and your bike).&nbsp;

Sorry for my tirade but I get sick of two things:

1.&nbsp; People being anal

2. People not accepting contrary views to theirs

I never said dirt bike riding wasn't valuable - it just isn't going to make you a better road rider than time spent pushing you limits on the road.&nbsp; I think every rider should experience every type of riding (read my original post) as any cross over skills are invaluable.&nbsp;

&nbsp;

bluninja
11th March 2003, 15:50
Hey Wkid, why not just spit the dummy? I disagreed with one of your statements....and without your further comments I would still disagree with it. Some people are not so discerning as to make all the linkages you meant to imply in your statement.

As for pedantic....this site can't be pedantic...it has no intelligence of it's own. So I guess it's the people writing (oops typing) that are the pedants. I make no assumptions as to your thoughts or intentions, I just accept it for how it reads to me. I don't know if&nbsp;your tirade is directed at me, or all the posters that disagreed with some things you wrote. However your response seems intolerant of people whose views oppose your own.&nbsp;

Hey wouldn't it be great if we could stand near a great rider and just absorb their skills and knowledge? I'd even wear a semi-permeable membrane if it helped.

TTFN

Skunk
11th March 2003, 16:46
Originally posted by wkid_one
I ASSUMED we were talking about people who wish to IMPROVE their riding - in this case - time in the saddle is the most important thing

I still disagree. As you say...
it is only about encoutering every possible situation and learning from it. Hence dirt riding helps by providing an even greater varity of situations.

Why do insurance companys load premiums for people under 25 - cause they have more accidents - why because they are less experienced (either to handle to situation or know when to hoon).
I think that with motorcycles the high risk group is in their 40's... probably for the same reason through.


My point is that you need to put in the time to improve - nothing beats it - there is no quick cure to becoming a good rider - it is just experience and confidence (in yourself and your bike). Time - yes. And as you say experience. But time does not equal experience. I think people got confused as to your point when you stated
NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING... as this is now obliously not what you meant.


I never said dirt bike riding wasn't valuable - it just isn't going to make you a better road rider than time spent pushing you limits on the road. which I still disagree with (if the rider has the same attiude in both situations).

My opinions; you don't have to agree. Just be polite.

Kwaka-Kid
11th March 2003, 19:09
Originally posted by wkid_one
I ASSUMED...

there is where u went wrong! - To Assume is to make an ASS outta&nbsp;U and ME... or in this case, maybe just you :P

haha, no sorry for being such a smart-ass actually, i dont mean to offend, just felt like putting that, but anyway i havent had a chance to fully read everyones post, but heres my 2 cents...


Originally posted by wkid_one
NOTHING BEATS HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN RIDING...

Even with your idea of people always Wanting to Improve etc etc. I almost fully agree with this, altho there are some few cases where ive seen things work backwards :/&nbsp;

I feel its not always as black and white as that, even if we were all trying to improve.&nbsp; hmm, now im trying to think of this hard (because i dont always have a way with words/expressing what im thinking).&nbsp; I feel some people, BECAUSE they know/feel they have lots of bike experience, let their standerds of riding slip, and therefore generally become worse riders, ive seen a few riders like this, and im putting the reason for LOTS of little things i see wrong in their riding (im talking general road riding, e.g tailgating etc) is because they THINK they have lots of experience, which they might have, but im talking of the whole mental approach if you know what i mean.&nbsp; Argh, i cant explain it, if you can.. please do it better for me :) and maybe it doesnt fit in here, but anyways.

Lastly id like to comment on the Grip thing.&nbsp; Now some people (or i thought when i skim read) seem to think that dirt skills etc help you in sticky situations etc.&nbsp; I honestly dont feel that the experience of whats physically happening, can help you any.&nbsp; when i went for my first real "jamm on both brakes in the wet as hard as u can, or choose to hit the car instead" after 5 years dirt experience, i couldnt beleive how slippery it was on the rear firstly.&nbsp; I barely touched it, and the rear locked up, and it seriously slapped between my legs and felt like i could loose control @ any second far too easily.&nbsp; Secondly i locekd the front wheel and it bounced! it just juddering/bounced up down up down, really harshly and altho it was only for a split second (as i soon stopped pulling the brake so hard) it felt really really foreign!&nbsp; On a dirt bike (in general dirt/sand) i lock the rear wheel and shes pretty friggin slow moving - in terms of side to side movement, really controlable and @ high speed (fora dirt bike) i can lock the rear and just come to a stop eventually and easily. talking of the front wheel, when i lock up on a dirt bike, in sand she just boggs down and in! and on dirt she yanks hard to one side and just wants to stop, with some small juddering.&nbsp; Now i feel my dirt experience helped with just understanding balance of being on 2 wheels, however in that situation, i dont feel my dirt experience was directly relevant/usefull.

Hmm, well im tired after a long day and half the stuff in their is confusing me now (mainly trying to think back so far) and so thats my excuse for anything that gets totally shot down on here :P.&nbsp; But please do comment on what ive said - specially you Bluninja, you seem to have answers/POSITIVE:D critizism on everything :)

bluninja
11th March 2003, 20:50
KK, criticize? moi? no but, it seems I analise a lot:D Must admit I wouldn't have dared to use the old ASSUME explanation :rolleyes:

It's a great point you make about experienced riders (if I understood correctly) who develop bad habits over time, because of their experience, and end up gradually getting worse. I'ts a different view to what has been posted so far on saddle time, one to make some experienced riders scratch their heads and have a think about their own riding. It's made me think. Thanks.

TTFN

Motu
14th April 2003, 18:08
Well,Im one of those who think dirt riding definatly helps with road riding.Kenny Roberts thinks so too,the modern knee drag/throttle steer rear wheel slide style of road racing was developed by KR from his flat track experiance,in his road racing schools he had them riding under powered dirt bikes to teach them to maintain speed at all costs and how to control front and rear slides.Then they went onto seal and transfered these skills.

Another thing off road riding teaches is reading terain,this is much more important off road,but an off road rider brings this to his road riding.I ride an adventure bike,and my riding style is definatly dirt,this is the fastest way to ride the tight stuff,as you have seen the motards do.

Pickle
14th April 2003, 19:56
Comparing dirt riding to road riding? they complement each other dont they, dirt riding is a lot about balance. There is an old saying "to go fast first you must learn to go slow". Dirt riding&nbsp; teaches you bike control at a lower speed &amp; usually on lighter bikes so the more time you spend riding off road or like me on dirt roads or hooning around the beach the more I like riding my 600 fast &amp; feel&nbsp;confident doing it.

As for zrx's comments about people in their 40's I take exception to that!:(

wkid_one
14th April 2003, 21:16
Now then - what if you are riding a quad bike/atv?

Also, does riding a Jet Ski help your bike riding? or a Snow Mobile?&nbsp; Or a Tuk-Tuk?&nbsp;What About Drag Racing or Hill-Climbing?

Mini-Moto's look fun tho don't they

Food for thought me thinks!

Motu
14th April 2003, 21:22
I wouldn't call flat track racing slow, specially on a mile track.If you are riding on gravel then you know that you are much more aware of surface conditions,on coming traffic and much more,gravel road are our best training grounds.

As for going slow,I ride trials too,probably to most important thing in my riding kit.

Jinx3d
18th June 2004, 16:51
dirt biking is good experience because....

You learn how much it hurts to crash and buy lots of protective clothing!
You never see dirt bikers riding in teeshirts jandal and bandana's do ya?

From personal experience of road biking, dirt biking and mountain biking...I'd say mountain biking has been more valuable than the dirt biking.

DOnt know why, possibly because you have so little suspension and grip that you are constantly being challenged.

And it keeps you fit too.

Sensei
18th June 2004, 17:53
Well here I go. Wkid's points' out the main reason for riding be it Dirt or Road . Is to get the best you can from pushing yourself & your machine to & sometime's beyond your normal limit's so as to get better or faster .Myself riden dirt from 6year's old & road from 15 so 25years on the road . 40 Bike's later I still try to better myself each time I go out . True some people cann't ride for shit & never will . As long as you enjoy your riding Dirt /Road skill's between both are all up to you as long as your happy that's all that matter's That's why I'v probably got a road bike with Dirt bike handle bar's I suppose Sensei :doobey:

Deano
18th June 2004, 18:54
[QUOTE=wkid_one]
I play competitive snooker - and this also makes me a good pool player - BUT I will always get beaten by someone who plays competitive pool...same goes in riding.&nbsp; It will help, but not be the be all and end all.
[QUOTE]

????????? You sly bastard - how come you didn't get up and put me in my place on Thursday night ????

Just being modest ?

FROSTY
18th June 2004, 20:41
probably already covered but -To me there are two basic elements to road riding actually learning to control the bike and 2 dealing with traffic therefore signals ,other drivers etc.
Any riding experience be it dirt riding or possibly even be it bucket racing will improve your chances on the open road.
Heck I learnt how to ride on a honda c50 on our back lawn/paddock. 3 gears ,a seat, brakes, and bugger all else. It taught me at the very basic level how to balance and the concept of changing gears etc well before i was old enough to venture onto the road
I think any riding experience pre road riding is good

Jackrat
18th June 2004, 22:40
I firmly belive dirt riding has improved my road riding from a machine handling point of view.I don't give much thought to riding through unexspected gravel and that has only come from lots of dirt riding.The main thing dirt riding has taught me is to never back off.It works in the dirt and it works on the road.
Weather this works as well on a sport bike I don't really know but watching Gary McCoy makes me think it probably does.Iv'e always liked riding behind guys I belive are better riders than me,,Not a surprise but all these guys are also good in the dirt.

Deano
19th June 2004, 09:20
I agree that all experience is good, be it dirt or road. Colin Edwards recently said that motarding had impeded his road track racing, but at his level of skill and for his requirements, perhaps it is better to focus on one style.

FROSTY
19th June 2004, 10:20
Ive seen some pretty silly accidents with new riders . -the old screw the throttle to the stop dont use the clutch type.
If they rode traileys first maybee they wouldnt do that stuff.
mind you then again maybee they should ride a scooter through a feild of pissed off bulls--to get an idea of what its like to road ride

pete376403
19th June 2004, 16:09
This is a curious thread. I was thinking about the topic while watching the racing at Paeroa. I think it was the Formula 3's where there were motards racing. The blokes riding them were clearly ex-dirtbike riders (hanging the inside foot out through the corners!!) riding them like a dirt bike (with slicks:confused:)- but&nbsp;despite all this, they came in 1 and 2, pipping race preped zxr400's

Now, I dunno WHAT to make of that. A motard ridden like a dirtbike beats a road bike ridden like a trackbike on the road.. I mean what the *&amp;^#????
My understanding of dirt bike riders sticking the inside leg out and forward in the corners has nothing to do with propping the bike up so much as getting as much weight forward as possible, to help the front end stick and turn. I've not ridden a really modern dirt bike but I would expect that the weight bias is rearward, so any weight they can shift to the front would be a help. Comments from experienced dirt riders?

phil_elvey
19th June 2004, 16:17
Do road bike riders make better road riders? Definately, no question.
I believe the reason I have been able to ride road bikes for three years (so far) and have yet to break a bone is greatly attributed to my dirt riding experience.

Those motard riders are unreal!! Do they carry more speed through the corners to beat the road guys? I know for skills such as karting I was always told (and it worked well) that the less you slide the faster you go (more drive out of the corner etc.). These guys appear to shred that theory into a cloud of ex-slick!!

NordieBoy
19th June 2004, 17:04
Those motard riders are unreal!! Do they carry more speed through the corners to beat the road guys? I know for skills such as karting I was always told (and it worked well) that the less you slide the faster you go (more drive out of the corner etc.). These guys appear to shred that theory into a cloud of ex-slick!!

They are taking squaring off the corner to new heights.
The sliding in means the bike is already pointing out of the corner and ready to power out much earlier than possible using a normal line.

The foot out is mainly for weight transfer.

Kickaha
19th June 2004, 17:14
My understanding of dirt bike riders sticking the inside leg out and forward in the corners has nothing to do with propping the bike up so much as getting as much weight forward as possible, to help the front end stick and turn. I've not ridden a really modern dirt bike but I would expect that the weight bias is rearward, so any weight they can shift to the front would be a help. Comments from experienced dirt riders?


Trailriding I put my leg out to stop myself going down if I lose it and have saved my self a few offs,I also get my weight as far forward as I can as my bike tends to push the front.

Trailriding has certainly helped with my track riding with slides not really bothering me as much and developing the ability to correct them,all the dirt bike guys who I have seen come out and road race seem to get on the pace faster than road riders and normally always are first off the line.

As far as roadriding goes it really only helped my gravel road riding,as I generaly don't bother slowing down much for gravel on my road bike any more.

Motu
20th June 2004, 08:46
My understanding of dirt bike riders sticking the inside leg out and forward in the corners has nothing to do with propping the bike up so much as getting as much weight forward as possible, to help the front end stick and turn. I've not ridden a really modern dirt bike but I would expect that the weight bias is rearward, so any weight they can shift to the front would be a help. Comments from experienced dirt riders?

A modern dirt bike has a seat going all the to the steering head - and they use it.I like to get as far forward as I can and a modern sports bike frustrates me when I smack my crutch into the tank.

Deano
20th June 2004, 09:06
A modern dirt bike has a seat going all the to the steering head - and they use it.I like to get as far forward as I can and a modern sports bike frustrates me when I smack my crutch into the tank.

Only frustration there Motu, or excruciating pain as well ? :sick:

Oscar
21st June 2004, 07:42
How do the vast majority of MotoGP riders hone their skills?
Where did Kenny Roberts, Wayne Rainey, Mick Doohan, Simon Crafar, Aaron Slight, Eddie Lawson and Kevin Schwantz get their start?
What is the key component of the Kenny Roberts Riding School in Espana?

Dirt riding.

DEATH_INC.
21st June 2004, 15:18
My understanding of dirt bike riders sticking the inside leg out and forward in the corners has nothing to do with propping the bike up so much as getting as much weight forward as possible, to help the front end stick and turn. I've not ridden a really modern dirt bike but I would expect that the weight bias is rearward, so any weight they can shift to the front would be a help. Comments from experienced dirt riders?
This is a common misconception,the only reason you put your foot out is so it doesn't get ripped off the peg when you're cranked over,especially in ruts,berms ect.You hold it up and forward so it doesn't hit the ground,as this makes the bike stand up.......
I'm sure the years of dirt riding has helped my road riding no end,just being comfortable with the bike moving around,knowing what to do when losing traction(braking,cornering and accelerating),being able to feel what the bikes doing and I believe it sharpens your reflexes much more than riding on the road too.

wkid_one
21st June 2004, 15:41
A modern dirt bike has a seat going all the to the steering head - and they use it.I like to get as far forward as I can and a modern sports bike frustrates me when I smack my crutch into the tank.
That reminds me of the first time I rode the VTR and shut the throttle coming in to a corner in 2nd gear - fair bought tears to my eyes that did.....

I have ridden a bit of dirt lately - and besides my increased propensity to part company with the bike on a seemingly regular basis (hard to believe I know) - it is great fun. Interesting to translate the 'benefits' to the road tho. It does get you use to a loose rear end when the bike is exiting a corner......now if only I could learn how to ride over diesel without falling off, or better still, just not ride over it.

Oscar
21st June 2004, 20:10
That reminds me of the first time I rode the VTR and shut the throttle coming in to a corner in 2nd gear - fair bought tears to my eyes that did.....

I have ridden a bit of dirt lately - and besides my increased propensity to part company with the bike on a seemingly regular basis (hard to believe I know) - it is great fun. Interesting to translate the 'benefits' to the road tho. It does get you use to a loose rear end when the bike is exiting a corner......now if only I could learn how to ride over diesel without falling off, or better still, just not ride over it.

My first reaction to a VTR was that it felt like a BIG ole XR. Shit, any bike that wheelies that easy is gonna impress the shit outa a crusty dirt rider like me...


The best part of dirt riding is the ability to take things right to the edge without risking life and limb (and bank account) - braking and changing direction at the limit of adhesion, that sorta thing.

Timber020
23rd June 2004, 18:23
Im a firm believer that dirt riding improves your road riding, its been proven over and over again-Oscars list of top racers who have come from a dirt background is just the tip of the iceberg.

Dirtbikes may not teach you how to cope with usual traffic but it does help in holding everything together when the crap happens as on dirtbikes it happens alot more often with less severe consequences. Less panic reactions, more experience finding lines OUT of trouble when other things are flooding your sences (ie that Pajero that just pulled out or the log down on the firebreak at 130kmph) and being better at pulling wheelies.
On the other hand I dont think that road riding will bring as much to dirtbikes. Oh and dirtbikers do have that annoying foot out habit which is a great way to break a leg without falling off the bike!

Reading books can help you be a better rider if you apply what you read, the twist of the wrist series applied to my riding pulled 2 seconds off my laptimes in a month.

You dont have to believe dirtbike riding improves riding but I think the proof is there. Just ask Slight, Roberts, Crafer or Doohan

Motu
29th June 2004, 07:24
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fitness required - after riding a trial on sunday I am sore all over,legs,back,shoulders,arms and hands....and it's not because I'm old and out of shape,even over 20yrs ago I was like this for days after a trial.I can ride on the road all day and just get a sore arse.

Our trial was held at the Mercer MX track and having a blat on parts of the track was too tempting to pass up,not the best on a trials bike with short suspn travel and 3psi in the tyres - but it's soon obvious that riding MX takes huge upper body strength,MX is one of the most physicaly demanding sports in the world.I think this is one of the reasons a lot of the top road racers spend so much time on dirt bikes,to build and maintain that upper body strength.

Jackrat
29th June 2004, 07:38
I read that MX riders are way out in front the most fit of anysports players.
Maybe a few days in the dirt would help the AK worriers. :shutup:

DEATH_INC.
29th June 2004, 16:42
Yeh,when I MXed I ran 10 k's in about 35-40 mins everyday,but after a day racing I basically used to pass out for the night.It's a tough game orright....

denill
29th June 2004, 17:18
Yeah, I recall some time ago, when Graham Noyce was the top of the pile MXer (that long ago) when he submitted to a fitness level test programme that included sports people from many different disciplines and he was only headed off by a soccer player.

Also (Quote) My understanding of dirt bike riders sticking the inside leg out and forward in the corners has nothing to do with propping the bike up (Un-Quote)
That is a fact. Don't really know why, but I seem to recall it being likened to a counterweight. But it really works.
There is the added benefit of getting the leg out of the way during cornering.

Was fortunate to get an adventure ride on a KTM 400LC4 on the weekend (that was a blast) and I was consciously applying the technique after having read your comments, and yeah, it certainly helps...... Well at the relatively slow speed I was going at??

Jackrat
29th June 2004, 18:41
I stick my leg out for balance mainly,I have caught the bike a few times in the sand and that's why I walk like John Wayne. <_<

Two Smoker
29th June 2004, 18:59
While i would love too, i havnt got much dirt riding experience and no MX or trial experience....... My belief is that you can get new skill and modify them to other situations with any sort of riding..... Just like you can learn new skills on all bikes....

ON the posite CT110, i have learned extreme skills in low speed handling and balance, i have also learnt about powerslides (using opposite lock pushing my leg forward and keeping the gas on) and wheelies from the postie bike..... All valuable knowledge and skills that i may have to bring up in riding too come.....

Drunken Monkey
29th June 2004, 20:36
You should make the effort, 2 smoker. I learned so much from 1 day of mx'ing through the dunes and forests at Helensville, indespensible things like:
1 - just because your bike is sliding, it doesn't necessarily mean you've lost control (yet!)
2 - get the confidence to apply more power to get out of trouble, instead of always relying on backing off/braking

Not to say you can't learn these things on a track either...

In respect to the start of this thread, improving your handling skills is an important part of becoming a better rider (road or off), and while these don't necessarily improve your traffic 'street smarts', anything that improves your skillset must be good for you?

Firefight
30th June 2004, 08:01
While there are plenty of very good riders that have had no off road background, sorta naturals I guess(thinking of a couple of young guys I ride with), I know in my case, yes for sure, Ha ha even if I did manage to ride into a bit of a drain last week, I know that my time on Motox, enduro and cross country, do help me with my road rideing.

I think the whole balance thing, and peg work(ie ride for 3 hours mostly on pegs) does teach you heaps of bike control via body movement, I still find myself standing breifly on pegs in metal , . I know one of the hardest things we come across at Woodhill, is convincing newbees to stand on the pegs, But man when they finally do it, the smile on thier face :yes: . I guess its the same as weighting the pegs only a bit more involved.

F/F

Motoracer
30th June 2004, 08:13
Ha ha even if I did manage to ride into a bit of a drain last week, I know that my time on Motox, enduro and cross country, do help me with my road rideing.
F/F

I would like to say that FF made top efforts to use his dirt skills by trying to ride through the drain and get the bike under control but unfortunately the drain was just a bit too unstable for a sports bike. At times like these, you just wish you were riding a bike like Motus'.