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View Full Version : Yep... another 250 turbo thread. Turbo newb needs help.



N4CR
14th May 2006, 21:35
Well... I have been considering my options.

Either get two bikes... or mod one.

I was thinking a 250 turbo (if done properly...) would be the shiznickle or whatever that word is. I love the handling and can't get enough, bigger bikes don't do it for me in that department. A one off as such. I would buy a second motor to work on while I rode the bike around.

Small turbo here on tardme
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Performance/Turbos/auction-56075902.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Performance/Turbos/auction-56710578.htm

I know carbs and turbos are a prick but if anyone could offer advice and tips that would be great. I'd probably have to get forged internals or something like that I guess (HOW AND WHERE?! also is heat treating a similar thing?). General things like that would help if you can tell me what I need to look for. I'm trying to work out the costs included. Don't just say get a big bike and don't waste your money etc as I'm prepared to spend money for a turbo 250 instead of a big bike. And I don't want to consider NOS for now... easier way out.



07-27-2003, 02:48 PM
keep the 250 till your on your own, till then build the badest sleeper of all. imagine the look on the face of a guy riding a zx7 when a 250 blows past him. when I was 15 these same kind of guys were telling me I had to be insane for spending hard earned cash on a vw bug, but when I got it together and was posting et's under 11.60sec they all shut up and quit giving me a hard time.


Sleeper sounds fucking cool, not to mention just having a turbo bike. And no I don't expect to get enough HP to pass a 600etc in a line but that's what corners are for eh :devil2: Just a power boost with minimal weight gain... cool idea I guess and something to do over winter.

Waiting to hear from you mr DEATH_INC especially. Infact I'll offer payment for work/help in regards to this if I decide to try this out, goes out to anyone. I have heard figures of 10k from people asking similar questions elsewhere, but i'm trying to do this for less.

I don't have welding gear or too much mechanical expertise so I'm pretty much a newb when it comes to this.

THings to consider: engine limitations... carbs.. DRIVETRAIN (mabey swappa 400 one...?) Oil should be fine just need to get a line off the bikes normal coolant system. I'll need pipes fabbed exhaust > turbo etc too.

Comments.. suggestions?

Mr. Peanut
14th May 2006, 21:37
Get a Two Stroke? :mellow:

N4CR
14th May 2006, 21:55
Get a Two Stroke? :mellow:

It's under consideration... also an engine swap might be more simple after fabbing etc than a turbo? and more power. Big 500 single or something.

Basically I'm looking at my options for turboing but i'd love to give it a crack instead of getting another bike.

edit: I'm slightly mental I guess.. turbo sounds like me.

Magua
14th May 2006, 21:55
Sounds like a bitch to set up, but fuck would it be cool. _b

Mr. Peanut
14th May 2006, 22:08
Maybe find an older tandem twin or v twin ? less carbs than a four and less to replace probably lower comp to begin with too.

Maybe a honda VT250 with high ks? something cheap, id consider doing it myself but Ive already got enough to do...

Crasherfromwayback
14th May 2006, 22:56
also an engine swap might be more simple after fabbing etc than a turbo? and more power. Big 500 single or something.

Basically I'm looking at my options for turboing but i'd love to give it a crack instead of getting another bike.

edit: I'm slightly mental I guess.. turbo sounds like me.
Firstly, you couldn't get a motor further removed from what you want than a 500 single, so make up your mind.
Secondly, stay away from LSD, save your money for a better (yes bigger and faster) motorcycle.
Most modern 600's weight no more than most slightly older 250's and will actually be reliable as well as handling better.
And despite your best wishes, I doubt you'd be able to find a turbo unit small enough for your engine size.

Kwaka-Kid
15th May 2006, 05:47
and if you are really keen on doing it?

Firstly, you would have to lower compression from around 11:1 on the 250 to 8:1. Then be satisfied with stock head gaskets capabilities. After that its up to you, the theory is there - it should run on the genuine die-cast internals, but who knows - and if u need new pistons to alter compression... then maybe may aswell go to forged? if you want cold seizing?

Retail on JE custom made pistons? $300ea
Retail on some custom 'rillo rods? $400ea approx

If you give me dimensions of what you want/need, i can research what might be the same.

my 750 turbo rocks :)

next problem with such a high revving wee girl etc is oil pressure to that poor turbo thats going to be flying at 10x the speed of ya 250. External oil pump possibly could be the way. Dunno, show me $5000 and see if something can start happening.

imdying
15th May 2006, 08:46
Save your money and buy a new GSXR600 or R6. It'll be as fast, or probably faster through the bends... even it was to weigh more (which it pretty much doesn't), it hasn't got shagged 10 year old suspension, and the suspension is of a far superior design and spec. That, and the extra 60-80bhp means why would you bother?

Somthing to consider about performance, reliability and sound design... The Japanese have incredible skill, and large R&D departments... why haven't they built a turbo 250?

The Pastor
15th May 2006, 09:44
Dont listen to these wankers, Do eet! Bikes arnt ratioanal - There emotional, You buy it because you love it. It wont be cheap but it would be awesome, Im not sure how diffent adding a turbo to a bike is than on a car, but in the its the torque increase that is the main gain (well thats what a black man told me :-P) Wheelie machine. Maybe have a look at the ct12 turbo from old toyota supras, there pretty small not really good for much more than 5psi (stock they run 2.5-3)

Make sure you get what ever custom parts fabricated down on paper (like propper desinged), Im sure other people would PAY you to turbo there bike ;)

imdying
15th May 2006, 10:02
The torque increase will make it a wheelie machine? It'll probably still have less torque than a 600, and they're not exactly wheelie machines... If he wanted a wheelie machine, he could go up 6 teeth on the back.

How many psi of boost a turbo makes isn't any indicator of its suitability in a given application. The real way to be a 'wanker' here would be to suggest (expensive) things without having an ounce of mechanical understanding or ability to back those suggestions up with.

marty
15th May 2006, 10:24
oh you guys - leave him alone. he's a 19 year old self confessed poseur - let him turbo his bike - it's a GR thing.....

imdying
15th May 2006, 10:39
Agreed, but I don't want to see him go down an expensive path that gives bugger all gains though :( Sure, it's his money, but the more of it that stays that way the better imho.

Admittedly the same argument applies to turboing a 750... just buy a thou.. but you can see how more worthy a mod that is (not to mention the comparitive ease of turboing an injected GSXR750 over a carbed 250)

Two Smoker
15th May 2006, 10:44
If he wanted a wheelie machine, he could go up 6 teeth on the back.

Or 2 teeth down on the front???

Well if you want better handling, and more power, as others have said, get a bigger bike...

BUT, personally i want to see this done!!! Get in contact with Death, KK and Nicko (his mate has a turboed GSX-R1000, wheelies of the throttle in 4th gear at 200+kmh, not practical, but who cares!!!)... Mish would be getting the compression down, and finding a small enough turbo (maybe one off a CBX500?) and oil pressure with the fact that your 250 revs to 18000rpm... (all stated by KK) the rest... fabrication work... give it a go, would be a bit of a laugh...

imdying
15th May 2006, 10:51
You could show it at the bling bling car comps! (seriously!) I'm sure it'd attract some attention... just had a thought, it'd still be legal too ride on a learners... there's two (good?) reasons why you might want to :D

FlyingDutchMan
15th May 2006, 12:23
I think this is just the thing you're after:
http://feralinjection.com/

I say go for it! But defo get yourself a second engine to experiment on.

Two Smoker
15th May 2006, 12:36
I think this is just the thing you're after:
http://feralinjection.com/

I say go for it! But defo get yourself a second engine to experiment on.

Those guys are a fucking crack up!!! Dodgiest welds too!!!

R6_kid
15th May 2006, 13:01
do it tristan. once you have a turbo its all fab work and engineering... so its not *that* hard. just $$$

marty
15th May 2006, 13:08
quoting myself - how sad......


oh you guys - leave him alone. he's a 19 year old self confessed poseur - let him turbo his bike - it's a GR thing.....




says the man who's looking at a $4k turbo kit for the busa.......but may have to shelve it pending the purchase of new toy by the end of the week :)

WINJA
15th May 2006, 17:01
no2....................

ZorsT
15th May 2006, 18:24
Save your money and buy a new GSXR600 or R6. It'll be as fast, or probably faster through the bends... even it was to weigh more (which it pretty much doesn't), it hasn't got shagged 10 year old suspension, and the suspension is of a far superior design and spec. That, and the extra 60-80bhp means why would you bother?

Somthing to consider about performance, reliability and sound design... The Japanese have incredible skill, and large R&D departments... why haven't they built a turbo 250?
Because no-one else has

N4CR
15th May 2006, 18:34
Thank you for your comments... some interesting things pointed out. Modern 600 has a slightly higher dry weight than my bike WET, yep I weighed it myself at buckets once.

I'm not doing this as a wheelie/stunt machine, just the fact that it hasn't really been done (heard rumours of a zx2r going 90kms then popping with a turbo on it :|) and the uniqueness. I also love my bike, still do this day my most favourite bike ridden... done the k5 600, zx7r... 600f, and most of the 250's apart from the 2 strokes (will ride an rs250 in a week or so), rg150 blahrdy blah Liked the power of the big bikes but got sick of it on the more linear delivery types. I love the handling of my bike and so does everyone that has ridden it, I love my bike.. plain and simple. Little bit more oomph and sound would hit the spot to be honest.

I also love turbos and things that spin and make noise. A micro jet engine might be easier, but more expensive and less rewards. :killingme - I'm a nutter.

edit: LOL at the australian exhaust manifold.. farkin hell that's classic. I couldn't dream of being more rungi than that!

aff-man
15th May 2006, 18:50
The torque increase will make it a wheelie machine? It'll probably still have less torque than a 600, and they're not exactly wheelie machines... If he wanted a wheelie machine, he could go up 6 teeth on the back.

.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I've gone up 6 at the back and 1 down at the front (running a 15 52 set) on the 600 and sure it comes up really fast in first and can bump it up in second but it's not got the wheelie capacity as most thou's. The good thing is that the 600 still has enough HP to get the pull on the large sprocket. On a 45HP bike (and thats on a good day) you'll really see a difference and It will still be a mission to wheelie.

Kwaka-Kid
15th May 2006, 21:23
great guys, so you are doing this N4CR?

PM me if SERIOSULY so, because i can/will help in various ways. Mainly to help make it cheaper for you, however, if you dont have a good few thousand ready for bits then no time wasting :)

Theory is there.... And no you wouldnt go getting a Supra turbo. I love some of the great advice given on KB :) Very very small turbo, esp. for the point of it being a starting point, then worry about psi rise/compression and where the next weakest link is.

aff-man
15th May 2006, 21:42
great guys, so you are doing this N4CR?

PM me if SERIOSULY so, because i can/will help in various ways. Mainly to help make it cheaper for you, however, if you dont have a good few thousand ready for bits then no time wasting :)

Theory is there.... And no you wouldnt go getting a Supra turbo. I love some of the great advice given on KB :) Very very small turbo, esp. for the point of it being a starting point, then worry about psi rise/compression and where the next weakest link is.

Maybe a turbo from one on those honda city's or whatever... they are pretty damn small . I would be keen to see what comes of this and stuff. Oh yeh and you might want to talk to DEATH INC as well he is the man when it comes to this sort of stuff.

gav
15th May 2006, 22:40
AS per Winja, Nitrous Oxide :done:

jonbuoy
16th May 2006, 07:16
If you have to drop compression won't you loose out on a lot of power when your off the turbo? You probably woudn't notice it much on a bigger bore bike, would be quite a drop on a 250 - no?

imdying
16th May 2006, 09:07
Because no-one else has:lol: How would you explain the 6 cyl Goldwing? Or the Rune? Or the king n queen seat scooters? Or any one of a number of unique JDM models? They're all tiny buggers, and yet they've not built a tiny turbo bike... cause they've never thought of that? The land of turbo everything? I sense another Tui add coming on...

FlyingDutchMan
16th May 2006, 09:55
The reason you don't see factory turbo 250's is that 250s are limited by jap law to 40hp (used to be 45hp pre 94). Since they can do it without a turbo why would they stick one on?

ducatilover
16th May 2006, 10:30
do it too my spada. then ill rangi some rs250 fairings or cbr250rr fairings onto it, then ill machine my own tripple clamps and fit rs250 usd forks and ... and.... maybe i should try it!

HDTboy
16th May 2006, 11:38
I just read the first post in this thread, but if you're serious, keen and have the neccessary dough, I'll talk to you about it at Taupo on Snuday.

Alternatively, KK sounds like he's on the right track

mops
17th May 2006, 14:50
Sounds like a plan.

I'd be keen to help aswell. I do standalone ECU's, etc. I could convert those carbs to Fuel Injection and then standalone ECU it on cheap.

but yeach, as others pointed out already:

1. you need $$$ available now. including some extra for unforseen expense.
2. even if you spend major $$$ on things like forged pistions, rods, crank, there always will be weak points of the setup limiting your power or breaking often (think cracked heads - kinda hard to strendgten them, unless you are prepared to mill one out form titanium). i.e. reliabilty at power canno be guaranteed. 250cc bandit makes 45hp....
3. it will be difficult to find siutable turbo
4. after fitting custom crank/pistions/rods, the cc rating will be about 400....
5. you migh consider supercharger...

in the 80's F1 cars ran FI, so out of about 1500cc's (BMW M10 block) they were pulling about 1500hp @ boost levels 4 bar or even more in some cases (= over 60 psi)

Crasherfromwayback
17th May 2006, 16:33
(think cracked heads - kinda hard to strendgten them, unless you are prepared to mill one out form titanium).)
Stay away from LSD.

Mr. Peanut
17th May 2006, 19:42
:mellow: Jesus just NOS the fucker... Waaay easier :headbang:

DEATH_INC.
18th May 2006, 07:55
Don't knock this idea, there's a 250 yammie running around aussie that has some pretty serious go.....
I'll be at the KB trackday on sunday, come have a chat.:shifty:

imdying
18th May 2006, 08:08
Out of curiosity, what is 'pretty serious go'?

Two Smoker
18th May 2006, 08:27
Out of curiosity, what is 'pretty serious go'?

If death is saying pretty serious go... im thinking it will be pretty fucking fast...

imdying
18th May 2006, 09:35
Heeheh, that's what I was thinking!! If nothing else, a 17000rpm turbo bike would be a little slice of the future :D :D

ducatilover
18th May 2006, 16:09
i want to supercharge my spada.:mellow:

Mr. Peanut
18th May 2006, 16:27
NOS your spada :mellow: :mellow:

MikeyG
18th May 2006, 16:55
My understanding of turbos is that they like nice continuous exhaust flow rather than big pulses. So if your bike is a 4 turbo it if a single or twin a supercharger may be better.

For something really ambitious try the 500 single with a supercharger.

scracha
21st May 2006, 13:07
I'm sure my old boss Malcolm at Econohonda has a Maggot...sorry...CX turbo that has had SERIOUS modifications. Mibby he could do worse than speak to him? Think he's even got some turbo bits lying around that could be grafted onto a tiddler.

Silly project if you ask me though....squeeze a 4 or 600 motor into the frame (or a TRX 850..they're wee) and just don't tell anybody if you want a "sleeper".

Make a turbo diesel bike and I'll be intersted :rockon:

cheese
28th June 2006, 15:30
be a funny bastard and fit a motor out of a 450 moto cross bike.

that would be fun, and loud!

speedpro
28th June 2006, 21:18
You need something like an IHI RHB31 turbo. They use them on Suzuki Cappucinos which have bigger motors but that isn't the whole picture. Lovely little things, watercooled as well. Go with injection, soooooooooooooo much easier to setup once you start pushing things. Or . . . . . . . . . what about a little supercharger. Again I think there were tiny little ones that were used in aftermarket kits for Cappucinos that you can get. I got my RHB31 from an engine importer and the little supercharger from a 4WD place in Chch - Falsegrave I think. Pretty wrecked in the drive part but rebuilt in the garage OK. If your bike is anything like a FZR250 I reckon it'll be good for a bit of boost. I'm mucking round with one, well I was till I started the new job, and I'm very impressed with the bits inside. I've o-ringed the barrel and made my own copper head gasket. Simple maths will tell you how thick to make the gasket to lower the compression to where you want it and I took the cams to a place in Pukekohe who mapped them and then gave me a suggested set of centres to install them at. There is a lot of funny ideas out there, make sure the advice you get is from someone who has actually done it rather than someone who has just fitted a BOV to their hot hatch.

Re the whole project, I say go for it.

speedpro
28th June 2006, 21:26
That Rajay in the first post would be similar to the one used on a Kawasaki Z1R-tc. Big and old, you don't want it. Would suit about a 1L plus engine. They survive good on low oil pressure which is why they were used on Z1s.