UK lobbying groups speak out against "External Throttle Control"

[Bob]

Both the BMF and MAG have spoken out against the possible implementation of outside forces being able to control motorcyclist’s speeds. However, the two bodies disagree on the subject of the possible benefits of a speed warning system.

Intelligent Speed Adaptation(ISA) has come to the fore because the Motor Industries Research Association (MIRA), in conjunction with Leeds University, has completed a 5-year trial of ISA and will shortly be reporting to the Government on its findings.

MAG has made its’ position clear. MAG President Ian Mutch was emphatic about the issue. "Let's keep this one simple - we don't want it, not today, not tomorrow, not ever." MAG also stated that withdrawing control from the rider is fundamentally what MAG was set up to oppose.

The BMF also felt the need to clarify their position in light of recent comments in the press. The BMF’s position is “that while a voluntary speed advisory system might well have its advantages from a rider perspective in helping to avoid inadvertent speeding, actual intervention, by whatever means, is unacceptable”.

Both MAG and the BMF have ridden a prototype motorcycle fitted with ISA technology which was developed by the University of Leeds, the Department for Transport and MIRA (Motor Industry Research Association). The system fitted to the bike slows the bike down through speed limits by acting on the throttle from information supplied by digitally mapped GPS signals. The system also warns the rider of the speed limit through audible alarms, flashing lights and vibrating apparatus in the seat.

The test took place in a closed environment on a special circuit with no other traffic present and therefore bore no relation to real world traffic conditions.

MAG’s Director of Public Affairs Trevor Baird condemned the prototype technology as, "dangerous as it overloads the rider with information thus distracting concentration. Furthermore the apparatus as it is at present will close the throttle mid corner where consistency of power is critical to stability. However we must be aware of future developments that may overcome these shortcomings as the technology evolves."

The BMF have taken a different stance, saying that “Calling for bans on a technology that is only in the trial stage and therefore not proven, is short-sighted and likely to stifle the development of technologies that motorcyclists might well find of eventual benefit.”

The Queen’s Speech at the opening of Parliament is expected to contain statements on road pricing and congestion charging that will use similar technology.

[Fat Tony]

And the Association of British Drivers aren't that up for it either, and I think that they may have taken a sarcy pill or two :)

===================
ISA (Intelligent Speed Adaptation) should be re-named as USELESS (Unintelligent Speed Engineering Lowering Existing Safety Standards) says the Association of British Drivers.

The ISA system being planned by the government to control the speed of vehicles, has just two inputs, the speed of the vehicle and the posted speed limit, which it looks up from the location given by a satellite navigation system, and it matches one to the other. That is not intelligence --- in no way can ISA be described as 'intelligent'.

Vehicles, however, really do need intelligent speed adaptation. We need an ISA system which as well as having an input of the vehicle's speed, has visual inputs so it can determine whether that speed is appropriate given the traffic pattern and likely actions of other road users.

The visual input would also enable the ISA system to determine the weather and state of the road surface and to tell in advance how gradients and bends in the road will affect the safe speed of the vehicle. Ideally the system would also have an audio input. The system should also have motion sensors built in to it, so it can tell how the vehicle is handling. It should have sufficient pre-learned data to be able to predict how different vehicles handle so as to be able to adjust the safe speed to that particular vehicle, and it should be continually adding to its store of learned data. And, of course, it should have a very powerful computer which can process all the inputs in real time and output the safe speed for that moment.

In addition to having control of the throttle and brakes, the ISA system should have control of the steering and ancillary controls as well. It should be programmed with an instinct for its own survival and self-preservation, as well as a strong desire not to cause damage to other such systems or to vehicles fitted with them.

When we can come up with a system which can do all that then they should be made compulsory on all vehicles.

But wait! We already have such a system. It's called a human being. All human beings which are allowed control of vehicles have visual inputs, most of them have audio inputs, they have motion sensors, huge stores of learned and pre-programmed data, and computer systems so powerful that they've taken millions of years to design. They also have an overwhelming survival instinct and a strong desire not to injure other humans or cause damage to property, which cause them to keep to a speed where risk of damage is minimised.

Why don't we just leave control of vehicles to the TRUE ISA systems --- drivers?

ABD Chairman, Brian Gregory, said:
"The only real intelligence in a vehicle's control system is found between the ears of the driver. We blunt that intelligence at our peril."
====================

Of course, nobody will listen to any of them as usual. The only people they seem to listen to these days are the likes of BRAKE and other reduce speed bodies.

I don't doubt that a system like ISA will be the norm - I just hope it's not in my lifetime - and if it is, the spanners and wire snips will be coming out

[Deano]

Isn't it funny how art imitates life (or is that vice versa?)

What I mean is that many aspects of the sci fi movies of the past are actually becoming a reality.....ok, we haven't got teleportation yet....

But take Demolition Man. The future was so regulated you couldn't take a dump without big brother watching your every move.

It's only a matter of time before there are GPS and cameras fitted standard to every vehicle or place to monitor every driving/riding move you make. Although it will be so un-PC to speed, vehicles will probably be restricted from the factory so that you can't anyway.

[Waylander]

The system also warns the rider of the speed limit... ...and vibrating apparatus in the seat.

Chicks will love it.

[HenryDorsetCase]

But take Demolition Man. The future was so regulated you couldn't take a dump without big brother watching your every move.

.

you mention that movie, and all I see is Sandy Bullock in those tight black pants.... :love:

what were we talking about again?

[Black Bandit]

Gah! Pesky no good meddling lefty hoity toity brown trousered proactive knee-jerking committees.:mad:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/motoringNews/idUKNOA92779520070329?pageNumber=1

The committee suggest that motorcycles be restricted to 125cc!!!! :rolleyes:

[lb99]

A total of 569 motorcyclists were killed and nearly 6,000 seriously injured in accidents on Britain's roads in 2005, according to Department for Transport figures

how many of those were creamed by other veihicles failing to give way?

[pete376403]

Would they also agree to capping the speeds of just about any medium sized car, let alone the Ferraris/Porches/Lambo's etc supercars? Didn't think so.

[Disco Dan]

Wankers.

"tell em their dreamin"

[Jantar]

come on, lets be realistic here. No-one really needs a bike bigger than 125 cc for commuting on. And at the same time 4 wheeled vehicles, having double the number of wheels to propel, will bw limited to 250 cc. :wacko:

[Pumba]

come on, lets be realistic here. No-one really needs a bike bigger than 125 cc for commuting on. And at the same time 4 wheeled vehicles, having double the number of wheels to propel, will bw limited to 250 cc. :wacko:

Hey I can see the logic involved in that statement, who wants to bet it has never been raised in a serious conversation:shutup:

[Gremlin]

No-one really needs a bike bigger than 125 cc for commuting on.
I dunno, I find the cb900 very handy around town, oodles of torque, makes it really easy. For me tho, its not just a commute, I have to hop from place to place, so can spend a lot of time on the bike...

Its the torque, not downright engine size... but sure, limit the cages to 250cc :Punk:

[mstriumph]

I.................... but sure, limit the cages to 250cc :Punk:

all cages should be horse-drawn ......... :Punk:

[Bob]

It wasn't 125cc, but rather they were looking at a top speed limitation. 65mph (or 5mph slower than the national speed limit on motorways!) was the suggestion by that clown of a "transport editor" they found from somewhere.

This isn't the first time power contstraints have been proposed. It isn't all that long ago that some Euro Politician (Martin Bangemann I think he was called) was lobbying very hard for a 100bhp limit. Thankfully he was defeated as no-one could prove a direct link between speed and accident rates.

If I recall correctly, trials have been going on with cars, where they are fitted with a 'black-box' which can control their speed. Not sure if any bikes have been included in the trial.

Talk about scary. Imagine going to overtake in a 50mph zone, then hitting a 40mph zone when you are still half-way through the manouvre... so the black-box gets the command to cut your speed... just as Mr Truck is getting too close for comfort and you go to open up to get through and into the space...

Or - and this is the really scary bit for anyone riding a bike - you are leaning over in a corner and the black-box kicks in and cuts your revs. Loss of revs, bike runs wide... into a hedge one way, or into the other lane depending on which way you are heading.

I'd say that'll increase the accident rates, not cut them.

[SPman]

come on, lets be realistic here. No-one really needs a bike bigger than 125 cc for commuting on.
Fuck off - had a GP125 some years ago, and got passed by my sons schoolbus, going up a, not very steep hill on the way home......very embarrassing! 1300cc is the minimum size for a commuter, I reckon.....

oh the shame...............never again......

[NordieBoy]

65mph (or 5mph slower than the national speed limit on motorways!) was the suggestion by that clown of a "transport editor" they found from somewhere.

He want's to be able to finally pass a bike.

[idb]

What do they mean by increased environmental damage through the use of bikes?

"The committee said it appeared to be government policy to encourage greater use of motorcycles, despite concerns over safety and the environmental damage"

[MSTRS]

all cages should be horse-drawn ......... :Punk:

And have a man waving a red flag, walking in front.

[Dave Lobster]

They're missing the bigger picture.
Accident rates for bikes are falling in the UK. In spite of the increase in bike use over the last few years.

[vifferman]

Gah! Pesky no good meddling lefty hoity toity brown trousered proactive knee-jerking committees.:mad:
You forgot to mention "Grey-suited, grey-faced, SafetyBureaucrats, with no imagination and no life."

Personally, I think they've got the wrong end of the stick. Or maybe the wrong stick altogether.
How many of us actually ride around at the top speed of our bikes (apart from GN250 owners)? Maybe you might try it once, to see how fast you can go, but that's it. While it was almost mandatory to ride my first bikes at top speed, I haven't bothered with the last four I've owned. Maybe if I ever get the courage to risk trashing the VifFerraRi on the track, I might do it (had a demo VFR800 up to an indicated 220 on the back straight of Pukekohe, and a FahrtSturm up to 230).

[mstriumph]

And have a man waving a red flag, walking in front. sexist beast! you want to send us all back to the dark ages?? :laugh:

[ManDownUnder]

I suggest they put similar restrictions on cars too then. 65 mph would be the max limit required by them surely?

Or we could apply some common sense.

[idb]

Why doesn't the gummint simply empower some agency to punish those that exceed the speed limit?
Imposing fines would be one method, and could be used a ready source of income to assist in funding the management of this fine country.

[cowboyz]

How many of us actually ride around at the top speed of our bikes (apart from GN250 owners)? Maybe you might try it once, to see how fast you can go, but that's it. While it was almost mandatory to ride my first bikes at top speed, I haven't bothered with the last four I've owned. ).

While I agree not alot of people ride their bikes full noise everywhere they go with technology what it is and sports bikes being what they are double the speed limit is possible is a few seconds. Just to confuse what side of the argument I am on I was watching 20 20 last night and they had a devils run thing on there with a "non race" from AKLD to Queenstown for the rich and not so famous in very expensive cars. Some were looking in on 270km/hr. One guy made one of the stretches with an AVERAGE speed of over 130km/hr which is pretty damn impressive if he slowed down through the towns. No mention of accidents or deaths with these guys driving and breakneck speeds.

[Hanne]

"The Motor Cycle Industry Association says road safety can be improved by better training, changing attitudes and improving roads rather than just focusing on speed."

That sounds like the most sensible way of dealing with things to me, rather than electronic intervention... as mentioned, a maschine can never assess all circumstances, so Iwould say it would be safer to leave those sorts of decisions in the hands of the riders

[Krusti]

Just make every one ride Honda's and Yamaha's....that will keep the speed down.:dodge:

Or maybe we should all ride Harleys...slower top speed...safer? Yeah right.

Cool KB rides though if we all had RS125's.:yes:

[kiwifruit]

every bike should have a black box fitted as mentioned before. no need to go faster than 100, or 50 etc

EDIT: and some sort of device that limits acceleration to a sensible level

[NighthawkNZ]

How many of us actually ride around at the top speed of our bikes (apart from GN250 owners)?

I haven't actually ever fullyopened the VTR, though I will admitt I have blown the cobb webbs out a couple of times... :innocent:

it is always nice to know I have the extra horses for those aww crap moments when I need it.. and there have been many times,


passing a truck and trailer and then having to open up to pass a extra vehicle who was tucked in and unseeable till you were up by the cab of the truck...
Passing a vehicle then one of the on coming traffic decides to speed up and or one decides to start an over taking manouver of there own...
I have had a truck follow me at a pretty high speed and all I could see in my rear view mirror was MAC (tho I actually this one pass)


and there are a few other moments I have actually needed the extra omph to finish a manouver where I admit I have mis judged distance.

[R6_kid]

I say they should do it. I'll take up some shares in Dynojet Limited, and also do an electrical diploma so i can sell de-restrictor kits to bypass the speed restrictors.

[Krusti]

A more disturbing prospect is the gps traking of vehicles. I could live with a bike size / power restriction way easier than my speed being tracked 24/7!

Must investigate how to cloak my bike :yes:

[R6_kid]

A more disturbing prospect is the gps traking of vehicles. I could live with a bike size / power restriction way easier than my speed being tracked 24/7!

Must investigate how to cloak my bike :yes:

could always just disconnect the GPS tracker... or wear a tinfoil helmet.

[Dafe]

The can cap my bike the day they cap all Holdens, Fords, Subaru's, BMW's, Mercedes etc etc.....

Why do they need to go over 65mph?

Shouldn't they get capped too then. Or is this just some idiot journalist wasting space?

[doc]

Why doesn't the gummint simply empower some agency to punish those that exceed the speed limit?
Imposing fines would be one method, and could be used a ready source of income to assist in funding the management of this fine country.
Nah never happen, take away police resources.

[The Pastor]

It would be an intersting excuse, no bikes cannot actually go over 65mph, your radar must be wrong!

[slowpoke]

How's about the new 1098 with it's DATA LOGGING facility....would the data log be admissable in a court of law?

As for speed limiting bikes, lets say they were reasonably generous and capped everything at 200km/hr. There's no point leaving the standard gearing, so imagine the shove you'd get out of a ZX14 or similar geared for "just" 200klicks...

[Pumba]

EDIT: and some sort of device that limits acceleration to a sensible level

Well I know my bike already has one of those, its called a Timing Retard Eliminator. Very easy to bypass too.:yes:

[Shadows]

Or is this just some idiot journalist wasting space?

Yerp. When they can't find any real news to report on, they have to resort to sensationalising something in order to justify their pathetic existences.
I doubt it will happen while we are still using internal combustion engines.

[Bob]

Yerp. When they can't find any real news to report on, they have to resort to sensationalising something in order to justify their pathetic existences.
I doubt it will happen while we are still using internal combustion engines.

Ahem,

A part-time journalist "justifying his pathetic existence" speaks...

In the UK they have been running a serious trial of speed-limiting technology - I think it is in the Leeds area (northern England).

A number of vehicles - 25 springs to mind as the figure (I cannot recall if a bike is included) have been fitted with 'black-boxes' which are subject to external control - in other words, a satellite picks up a signal which says how quickly you are going, relates it to the speed limit for the area... and cuts the power to bring you back down to the legal limit.

This IS an ongoing test - and could become law. And if it happens here, don't be surprised if it starts to appear elsewhere.

As I said earlier, this is bad enough for cars, but on a bike? Your speed falls away in a corner and you run wide... either hello Mr Ditch, or even worse, hello Mr Very Large Truck In The Other Lane.

Remember, the car set won't think about this as it doesn't happen to them.

[Shadows]

Ahem,

A part-time journalist "justifying his pathetic existence" speaks...

In the UK they have been running a serious trial of speed-limiting technology - I think it is in the Leeds area (northern England).

A number of vehicles - 25 springs to mind as the figure (I cannot recall if a bike is included) have been fitted with 'black-boxes' which are subject to external control - in other words, a satellite picks up a signal which says how quickly you are going, relates it to the speed limit for the area... and cuts the power to bring you back down to the legal limit.

This IS an ongoing test - and could become law. And if it happens here, don't be surprised if it starts to appear elsewhere.

As I said earlier, this is bad enough for cars, but on a bike? Your speed falls away in a corner and you run wide... either hello Mr Ditch, or even worse, hello Mr Very Large Truck In The Other Lane.

Remember, the car set won't think about this as it doesn't happen to them.

Obviously, present company excluded. Unless you are one of the ones I was referring to that likes to play things up for the sake of a news story!

Those people running the trials are simply justifying their existences as well. If governments were that keen there would be speed limiters on all vehicles already, this would be easy to do without the need for expensive satellite tracking. I can't think of a single country where all vehicles are already limited to a particular speed, so I can't see it flying.

I don't think the auto manufacturers would allow it either. Money talks.

[Bob]

I don't think the auto manufacturers would allow it either. Money talks.

I think there is a very sound nail hit on the head. Too much money is generated from revenue from those guys. Also, can you imagine the very same politicians proposing this sort of thing allowing their cars to be affected by speed regulators?

The main worry though, is that cars don't get slowed "As they have lots of internal safety features" (like A-columns that stop them from seeing anyone at the corner of their vision!), but bikes are open and not featuring all those lovely things they want to fit us with, like airbags (which would just blast us off the seat!), or leg protectors (which would stop us from getting our legs away from the bike if we did have an off). So by slowing us down to no speed at all, they can crow "Look, are we not a clever government? We have protected all those bikers by making sure they can only go slowly"... all the time forgetting there is no proven link between speed an accident rates and that by slowing us down in the wrong place, we are more likely to have an accident as stated above.

Scary, scary concept.








And no, I'm not one of those sensationalist types - if I come up with a news item, that guff all gets stripped out and I get back as close to real news as I can. Hopefully the stuff I put in here shows that.

[Disco Dan]

If every single can of fly spray was 'deleted' from the planet and removed. vanished one day. The world would be over run with swarms of flies. Remove everything in this planet that could kill a human being and we would be overcrowded in days.

Why worry about little black box's? If anyone was stupid enough to start building a vehicle like that, they would need stupid people to buy it too.

..oh wait a minute, Americans still exist dont they? Damit. We're screwed.

[Roj]

come on, lets be realistic here. No-one really needs a bike bigger than 125 cc for commuting on. And at the same time 4 wheeled vehicles, having double the number of wheels to propel, will bw limited to 250 cc. :wacko:


Hey I can see the logic involved in that statement, who wants to bet it has never been raised in a serious conversation:shutup:

Because it is logic it will never come to a politicians mind:Punk:

And of course cars are a status symbol

[more_fasterer]

I don't think the auto manufacturers would allow it either. Money talks.

In a backwater like our fine country, where there's no auto manufacturing industry, I suspect that the gummint would be more worried about how they would replace the speeding ticket revenue stream than company tax / GST from the new car industry.

The obvious solution is to make us all stupiderer and increase speeding fines by 1,000%

[Swoop]

Kneeslider article:

According to ZDNet, Legislators over in the UK are trying to come up with a law that will install GPS speed governors in motorcycles. The GPS knows what road you’re on and what the speed limit is so the motorcycle is prevented from going any faster with some sort of electronics to keep you from exceeding the posted limit. You would think they would have better things to do but if some busybody first attacks the smaller group of motorcyclists and is successful, cars will surely follow. It was another government in Europe, Germany if I remember correctly, where a legislator took issue with motorcycle top speeds eventually leading to the speed limiting agreements among manufacturers. I hope this new effort is quickly defeated but you never know. If anyone in the UK has more details about this effort, let us know.


To see the story & get the links associated with this story go to www.thekneeslider.com

[Motu]

How can I fit this technology to my XS650?

[Bob]

I've merged these two threads together, as they both cover the same subject.

Hope this doesn't cause confusion!

This GPS issue really worries me - nice to be able to work out where you are, but the next step is that it gets used for road charging (it will allow for variable charging based on location and time of day) and then onto the real worry, which is external control of speed - by which we mean drop your revs... scary prospect when you're leaning the bike over into a bend.

Bob

[Ixion]

It occurs to me that the "revs drop" aspect is the critical technical flaw in the theory. If the spy in the sky sees that you are going to fast and buttons off the throttle, the revs must indeed drop. But what if you are already at the point where the revs (pre spy-droppd) are at the lowest the engine will accept in that gear? So, the throttle is closed, the revs drop, and the engine stalls! Fancy a stalled engine mid corner? It would be OK with an automatic, which would change down, but there are very few automatic bikes. Best make sure they don't do trials with auto scooters and assume it will equate to bikes.

Probaby a simpler arguement to get across to the mandarins, too. They'll never understand how a bike's cornering is affected by speed and throttle, but they can understand "Do that and the engine will stall"