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Tints
26th October 2006, 14:10
I'm from the university of Auckland FSAE team and we have toasted one of our engines (scored bore) :gob:
We need to find another 03 to 05 Yamaha R6 engine very soon as we head to Australia to compete in Melbourne in mid December.
Does anyone know were an unused engine might be or where to find a wrecked bike etc. all we need are the two half casings, all of the other bits are fine (minus a piston).
The closest engine that we know of is in Australia and very expensive.

Any help would be great
Tints
:bye:

The_Dover
26th October 2006, 14:12
what the fuck is the FSAE?

JeremyW
26th October 2006, 14:15
Formula SAE. Its a university competition which gets uni students to design and build an open wheel race car from scratch and compete against other unis.

Bout 300 unis worldwide competiting in 7 different competitions.

For more infor check out www.fsae.co.nz

McJim
26th October 2006, 14:23
SAE is a TLA for Self Adressed Envelope where I come from. Mind you ETA is an ultra violent Terrorist organisation where I come from so go figure.

I don't have an R6 engine but at least I'm keeping the thread alive until someone who has one shows up!

k14
26th October 2006, 14:40
Gutted mate, that sucks. What actually happened? Dropped a valve?

Wish I could be of some help but I don't think I can. Are there any overbore kits for the R6 or is the classes limited to 600cc max?

Was looking on the site the other day and thats some very sexy pre preg cf work.

mops
26th October 2006, 14:50
yeach, heard of that before....

last year there was a dude who run megasquirt on a briggs and stratton v twin engine... but unsure or what HP they made... i mean, damn after all I head about aroun 125hp r6 engine...

Tints
26th October 2006, 14:55
the piston picked up on the bore, which sucks
and we are limited to 610cc max, i don't think you can bore the engine out, it has a ceramic coating on the bore.
we are fairly short on options when it comes to fixing the engine.

Motu
26th October 2006, 15:31
Why didn't you choose an engine that's common on the ground.I thought KISS would be the baseline - oh,you are trainee engineers,make it as complicated as you can to show how smart we are.

JeremyW
26th October 2006, 15:38
Why didn't you choose an engine that's common on the ground.I thought KISS would be the baseline - oh,you are trainee engineers,make it as complicated as you can to show how smart we are.

thhhhhhhrrrrrrrrwwwwwwwwwwwrrrrrrrrtttttttt. Do not!

The R6 is a great powerplant for what we need and Yamaha NZ have offered us quite a bit of support in the way of sponsorship and advice over the last few years....

....Just a shame they cannot get us an engine....

Tints
26th October 2006, 18:14
Why didn't you choose an engine that's common on the ground.I thought KISS would be the baseline - oh,you are trainee engineers,make it as complicated as you can to show how smart we are.

1: in Nz there are no compact, powerful 600cc engines that are common that we can use:dodge:

2: we are sponsored by Yamaha and they have been very good to us. :sunny:

3:we have thrashed R6 engines for 3 years and had very little problems, even with supercharging them.

4: we want to win and beat the aussies, you won't do that with a briggs and straten engine:scooter:

5: if you look at pictures of our 2004 car you will see that it is very simple and the following cars have been evolutions of that car. (www.fsae.co.nz)

we are not here to show how smart we are, we are doing this to make ourselves into the best professional engineers that we can be. (and to have some fun and build race cars!)

Motu
26th October 2006, 18:51
So you make your bed and lie in it.If you can't find an engine you are going nowhere....the choice doesn't look so good from that angle....

Tints
26th October 2006, 20:19
we will get there, if we have to beg or borrow we will get there, we are fairly good at getting out of tight spaces.:yes:

i just put this thread up to see if there was any good guys out there that could help us after all of the long hours we have put in at uni on the car over the last 18 months.

we will get there, and thrash the aussies in december in melbourne.

Mr. Peanut
26th October 2006, 20:21
Formula SAE. Its a university competition which gets uni students to design and build an open wheel race car from scratch and compete against other unis.

Bout 300 unis worldwide competiting in 7 different competitions.

For more infor check out www.fsae.co.nz

Can I compete? University PAH! I'll win ya :yes:

Colapop
26th October 2006, 20:23
What discipline are you studying?

Mr. Peanut
26th October 2006, 20:26
I'm a natural genius. I have google. What else does one need?

Motu
26th October 2006, 20:28
we will get there, if we have to beg or borrow we will get there, we are fairly good at getting out of tight spaces.:yes:


If you had an engine you could fix yourselves it would be much better - now you are at the mercy of fate.Burt and John didn't panic when their engines blew,they made new parts on the spot.Thought you were Kiwi's?

Colapop
26th October 2006, 20:33
You're a hard man awright Motu. But as you say where there's a will there's a way.

I think though that if you're building performance machinery it'd be best to start with top notch kit if you can. If at the end of the day you're forced to rebuild an engine then so be it. No harm in asking for help first up though eh?

sAsLEX
26th October 2006, 21:08
What discipline are you studying?


Any discipline can enter into FSAE if they are commited as the project has structual, chemical , electrical etc stuff in it. I know a few in different branches working on things from data logging to carbon fibre stuff.

imdying
26th October 2006, 21:23
If you had an engine you could fix yourselves it would be much better - now you are at the mercy of fate.Burt and John didn't panic when their engines blew,they made new parts on the spot.Thought you were Kiwi's?Burt's bike blew up all the time (which was fine, since he had plenty of time to spare it would seem), and John could shit money (a handy trick), neither things that the university guys have... as the OP has pointed out, and if you'd get your head out of your arse you'd see that.

Ixion
26th October 2006, 21:39
Why not put two overbored nsr250 (2 * 300 = 600) on a common crankscase. 4 cyclinder two stroke, should easily make 120+ hp and be reliable as.You can get overbore kits for the nsr

Motu
26th October 2006, 21:39
If you haven't got the resourses then you don't go for a rare and expensive motor that you can't repair inhouse.First rule - don't paint yourself into a corner.Guess I'm too practical to be an engineer.....

Tints
26th October 2006, 21:42
What discipline are you studying?

most of the team are studing Mechanical engineering, with a few electrical, a few mechatronics and few business students. the team size is about 25 people with about 8 people doing most of the stuff.


I'm a natural genius. I have google. What else does one need?

google rocks! there is so much stuff you can figure out with google... i wish i could take it into my exam....

Mr. Peanut
26th October 2006, 21:54
Why not put two overbored nsr250 (2 * 300 = 600) on a common crankscase. 4 cyclinder two stroke, should easily make 120+ hp and be reliable as.You can get overbore kits for the nsr

Awww Ixion, was that for me? :)

How about two Honda RS250 engines? 180hp would be achievable. Can't overbore an NSR barrel, as it's plated. You can use an NSR150 cylinder though, with a bit of modification. Or just fit a TYGA kit.

Tints
26th October 2006, 21:55
If you haven't got the resourses then you don't go for a rare and expensive motor that you can't repair inhouse.First rule - don't paint yourself into a corner.Guess I'm too practical to be an engineer.....

to compete against the aussies and the rest of the world, you have to have good gear that will perform. we did our homework and that was the best engine for what we wanted to do. if you want to research why we chose this engine the Formula SAE rules are on line at www.FSAE.com. if you want to actualy see what we have done so you know all of the details then come and have a look at our workshop, we are rebuilding the car at the moment.

What we have done with our design, including the engine has got teams from all over the world asking us how we did it. innovation and leading in your area is definitly a kiwi thing (the britten bike?). this is just a little set back that the team will get though, i was just seeing if someone out there might be able to help us with it.:Punk:

Tints
26th October 2006, 22:00
Why not put two overbored nsr250 (2 * 300 = 600) on a common crankscase. 4 cyclinder two stroke, should easily make 120+ hp and be reliable as.You can get overbore kits for the nsr

we are working on a v twin design at the moment using two single cylinder yamaha dirt bike engines just exactly like you are talking about. the only reason that we don't run a 2 stroke is we are limited to 4 stroke. no rotaries either. the new design will be lighter, smaller, easier to package and almost as powerful.

Mr peanut, whats a TYGA kit?, excuse my ignorance.

Ixion
26th October 2006, 22:00
Awww Ixion, was that for me? :)

How about two Honda RS250 engines? 180hp would be achievable. Can't overbore an NSR barrel, as it's plated. You can use an NSR150 cylinder though, with a bit of modification. Or just fit a TYGA kit.

Clumsy sentence. It was the TYGA kit I was thinking of.

Not really for you, just that the NSR should go quite well as a four. Too hard with the RGV, V4s are tricky.

Ixion
26th October 2006, 22:02
we are working on a v twin design at the moment using two single cylinder yamaha dirt bike engines just exactly like you are talking about. the only reason that we don't run a 2 stroke is we are limited to 4 stroke. no rotaries either. the new design will be lighter, smaller, easier to package and almost as powerful.

Well, thats a bloody silly rule then., Whats the point of having a contest to design a powerful engine and ruling out the powerful ones!.

Why not have a rule banning overhead cams, and pushrods , too. See who can have the fastest side valve.

Tints
26th October 2006, 22:12
Well, thats a bloody silly rule then., Whats the point of having a contest to design a powerful engine and ruling out the powerful ones!.

Why not have a rule banning overhead cams, and pushrods , too. See who can have the fastest side valve.

yeah, there are some gay rules, but alot of the rules are very open ended to get alot of different designs in the cars. some are space frames, some are monoques, some people make cars that are under 200KG and run a 450cc single, some make turbo inline fours, some have wings some don't.
the rules are done by americans so if you think the 2 stroke rule is bad you should see some of the safety rules...:stupid:

Motu
26th October 2006, 22:25
to compete against the aussies and the rest of the world,

Compete against yourself - that's the best benchmark you'll ever have.You chose a motor difficult to repair,now you are finding out what a smart move that was.Will it break down on the eve of the race,and you'll get to watch from the pits? KISS - frame it.

Mr. Peanut
26th October 2006, 22:28
R6 engines aren't exactly exotic...

onearmedbandit
26th October 2006, 23:45
Motu, i think you've completely misunderstood this thread and should back out now. The guy is asking for help in finding a replacement engine, if you can help I'm sure they would appreciate it, if not then why keep adding to the thread. It's not titled 'Convince us to give up competing in an international event and dump our current engine in favour of a sidevalve 4hp B&S so we can bodge up repairs if it blows'.

FROSTY
27th October 2006, 00:35
I dont know if this helps or not But you could try squeezing the slleve out of the block and get it rechromed possibly

Brian d marge
27th October 2006, 01:37
Sorry guys to here of the problem

I know fsae well , there are a few guys ovr here in Japan competing ..I may a photo of their last machine.

If I can help ill try ..But an R1 block .,......

I am siding with Motu on this , while R1 may be the bees Knees, if it goes pop then a briggs and scrap iron WILL beat it. Unfortuantly because of the yamaha sponsorship you are limited to yamaha ....So if all else fail could you use a FZR600 ( 6.7kg.m compared to a ( one assumes ) an early model R1 at 6.9 kg.m

The trouble with NZ it that its poor, and the other uni are well ( READ VERY WELL ) funded so you are starting off on the left foot !

For example we have an annual comp for human flight, ( birdman ) and Tokyo university almost every year wins , with an average of over 2 or 3 km. they could do more but thats the course

The thing is, they use/ have a well supported team. and produce a awesome machine ,,,,,,

So you only have time /money/ or smarts

anyway

this is whats availabe here ( by the time u read this it would have been sold 10 000 yen )

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f49835297


cylinder heads are going for 25 000 yen

Unfortuantly, I just sent some bike parts to a kb rider and a week and a bit later they still havent arrived ,,and I am getting worried so if times a factor............

Stephen

Ps ,, In racing you only get points for crossing the line, and if the parts arnt at the track with you ( read easily available ) then its the bus home and thank you for comming, Maybe a cbr 600 could have been a better bet .....

good luck hope you work it out

Motu
27th October 2006, 06:36
Motu, i think you've completely misunderstood this thread .

Uh,no - I don't think i have misunderstood at all.These guys want to win,but they only count winners at the flag - they won't get to the flag if they are standing around asking what are we going to do now.

JeremyW
27th October 2006, 07:59
See FSAE is about the learning. Obviosly winning is great and hence we all try our best. BUT if it all goes pear shaped (as it did last year) we still walk away much more knowledgable, skilled and well rounded engineers.

I know it sounds like a bunch of crap but that is how it is. We use the R6 because it is the best Yamaha engine around for the task at hand. Also the CBR does not have a stacked gearbox (as far as I know) and hence is more difficult to package into a small race car.

We are still a young team and overall are relitively inexperienced. With no one in our team over 25 and none having worked seriously in racing design I am pretty proud of what we have achieved. But we have made some pretty big ballsups in the past.

Its a common thing for us to recieve a lot of unsolicited advice so all Im asking is to understand what goes into the project and how much we give up for it before anyone starts baggin us....

Otherwise, thanks for the comments :)

Motu
27th October 2006, 08:08
Life is about learning - stop leaning and it's time to die.

emaN
27th October 2006, 08:22
...stop leaning and it's time to die...

i think you mean 'stop leaning & it's time to drive a cage'.....:scratch:

TonyB
27th October 2006, 08:39
If you had an engine you could fix yourselves it would be much better - now you are at the mercy of fate.Burt and John didn't panic when their engines blew,they made new parts on the spot.Thought you were Kiwi's?

On one hand you are advocating using an engine that is commonly available and can be easily repaired, while on the other you are pointing to Munroe and Britten, two guys who definitely did NOT follow the path you are advocating.

What engine would you suggest they should have used? Do any compact and powerful bike engines made in the last 6-8 years use anything other than Nickasil or ceramic plated bores?? Remember, the engine needs to conform to the class rules.

Hoon
27th October 2006, 08:52
Uh,no - I don't think i have misunderstood at all.These guys want to win,but they only count winners at the flag - they won't get to the flag if they are standing around asking what are we going to do now.

Nah I think you've misunderstood. KISS will get you to the finish line but if you want to be the first one there you need to be cutting edge and take some risks. This is a competition between the brightest engineers from Universities around the world, not "Junkyard Wars".

Freakshow
27th October 2006, 09:04
Nah I think you've misunderstood. KISS will get you to the finish line but if you want to be the first one there you need to be cutting edge and take some risks. This is a competition between the brightest engineers from Universities around the world, not "Junkyard Wars".

I have been lucky to see the workshop and see first hand what they have to work with and what they started with a few years and how far they have come. There is some impresive stuff their. If you dont take a few risks you dont get the big rewards.

Good luck guys!

adiddy
27th October 2006, 09:18
what is this engine? yamaha what?! i dont do japanese






So you only have time /money/ or smarts

anyway

this is whats availabe here ( by the time u read this it would have been sold 10 000 yen )

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f49835297


cylinder heads are going for 25 000 yen

Unfortuantly, I just sent some bike parts to a kb rider and a week and a bit later they still havent arrived ,,and I am getting worried so if times a factor............

Stephen

Ps ,, In racing you only get points for crossing the line, and if the parts arnt at the track with you ( read easily available ) then its the bus home and thank you for comming, Maybe a cbr 600 could have been a better bet .....

good luck hope you work it out

TonyB
27th October 2006, 09:25
this is whats availabe here ( by the time u read this it would have been sold 10 000 yen )

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f49835297



10,000 yen? For a complete engine? Jeeze thats only $128 at todays exchange rate. Are we missing a zero?

JeremyW
27th October 2006, 09:55
I translated the page and it said it had 'crank burn', whatever that means. I think it might be a little busted but it is possibly worth a try. Thanks for the link.

We have another engine we could possibly use, it has a little scoring but could be cleaned up (easier than our current one anyhow!). Kinda a bummer it has to be changed because we have made a few internal changes for our dry sump system that will take a while to repeat. That is kinda why we want a good engine to do the work to.

McJim
27th October 2006, 10:08
Dumb question but have you tried all the bike wreckers too? I imagine there may be a few R6 engines that used to be in bikes in Australia/NZ.

Shame it wasn't a Gixxer engine you were looking for - Dover keeps putting Gixxer engines on the market!

JeremyW
27th October 2006, 10:36
Yep rung a few wreckers and not a single R6 engine in the country (apparently). Have contacted Victorian Motorcycle Wreckers and they can do us one for a good price but it will take a while.

We are also running very low on funds so we were hoping to find just the bore/case section if possible.

Does anyone know someone who races an R6? Or who I could contact who knows people in racing? they might have some parts lying around.

Brian d marge
27th October 2006, 13:53
I translated the page and it said it had 'crank burn', whatever that means. I think it might be a little busted but it is possibly worth a try. Thanks for the link.

We have another engine we could possibly use, it has a little scoring but could be cleaned up (easier than our current one anyhow!). Kinda a bummer it has to be changed because we have made a few internal changes for our dry sump system that will take a while to repeat. That is kinda why we want a good engine to do the work to.

Yup thats what it says , its done a crank possibly because its been down on the left hand side.

Could have beed raced in the ST600 series ..very common here

Still it DID sell for 10 000 yen

Stephen

The postage would be a killer

Tints
30th October 2006, 21:44
just a little update, the engine is getting honed and will hopefully do for testing, but its life has been shortened significantly.

if anyone has an engine case that we can get or use or buy please give us a yell