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mikey62
27th November 2006, 18:33
Not long after I got my ZZR400 I changed the oil for some cage Havoline oil I had and now gear changes seem clunky. Its done about 40k's so I know I need to expect some noise. I've read some posts about the pros and cons on which oil to use and have decided on diesel engine oil. I've only done about 2000kms on the Havoline. I also intend changing the filter. Does anyone know of an engine flush product I should use ? Should I worry about it ? Cheers

Motu
27th November 2006, 19:17
Don't flush,it does more harm than good.

limbimtimwim
27th November 2006, 20:29
What about motorcycle oil?

?!?

It should last a few more trips through the clutch and gearbox..

mikey62
28th November 2006, 06:28
Don't flush,it does more harm than good.

Thanks Motu. Knew I could count on someone to set me straight.

mikey62
28th November 2006, 06:33
What about motorcycle oil?

?!?

It should last a few more trips through the clutch and gearbox..

Cause a bunch of people on here as well oil industry experts with a whole lot more knowledge on the subject than me say its just as good.

Pwalo
28th November 2006, 08:12
I think I'd stick to a bike specific oil of the proper rate SAE, and change it fairly frequently if you do a lot of commuting.

I've heard about the diesel oil trick, but don't know of anyone actually using it in their bike.

IIRC ZZRs have been known to be a bit 'clunky' with gear changing.

Blackbird
28th November 2006, 08:39
I'd have to brush up on my tribology but I'd be a bit nervous with respect to whether diesel oil and its additive package breaks down any faster than bike specific oils due to the higher revs of your bike compared with a diesel motor. Given the potential for harm, I'd want to raise this specifically with the manufacturers.

bistard
28th November 2006, 08:48
After spending twenty plus years in the motor industry,dont use car oil in your bike,cars dont have a wet clutch,motorcyce specific oils have additives to allow
for wet clutches,also the average bike revs alot harder than a car
so for instance imagine how hard the car oil is working in a 250cc four cylinder that revs to 19000rpm,car oil cant cope
I also agree dont flush your engine,you would be better to do a couple of quick oil changes,by the way always change the filter at the same time
So the long & short of it is the gearbox troubles you are having is due to the wrong oil!!

Motu
28th November 2006, 09:23
Any oil rated for Alison will handle wet clutches,Alison make truck auto tramsmissions and use engine oil.The oil I use in my diesels is rated for 80,000km oil changes,I'm sure it can handle a few kms in a wizzy bike.

limbimtimwim
28th November 2006, 09:33
Yes, true, I did some internetting and have learnt that diesel engine oils (Especially the commercial grade stuff) has much of the stuff that motorcycle oil has. Shear stabilisers and all that.

This is all pretty lucid: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

But I imagine it is more expensive than motorcycle oil...? I've never looked.

But how flash an oil does a ZZR400 need? Surely a motorcycle semi-synth would be just the stuff.

F5 Dave
28th November 2006, 09:54
I’m only responding in the hope that you will hear my plea “Please don’t let me get stuck in an oil dispute” [finger hovers over unsubscribe button].:bye:

My suggestion is think left field first & check that your chain tension & chain condition (no tightspots) aren’t affecting the gear change first off. Cush rubbers in rear wheel can get sloppy esp in Kawis of that era, so chain tension can creep up & make it seem worse (cushdrives can be packed out to reduce the slop).

Motu
28th November 2006, 10:17
Um,yeah - good idea.Personaly I've never known an oil to change my shift or clutch action,unless it's super thin or thick.But then I don't really take much notice of such stuff.Easy to blame the oil for another problem.

Whynot
28th November 2006, 10:19
maybe it depends on the bike, as i have definately had different clutch performance with different oils.

limbimtimwim
28th November 2006, 12:06
Um,yeah - good idea.Personaly I've never known an oil to change my shift or clutch action,unless it's super thin or thick.But then I don't really take much notice of such stuff.Easy to blame the oil for another problem.I did, when I first got my RVF, could very occasionally get the clutch to slip if I really gave it some. After I changed the oil, for some semi-sythetic, it never happened again. Obviously, I don't know what type of oil was in it it before hand.

I've had someone assure to me that this simply cannot be the truth and that I was mistaken (Possible) and someone else recommend I put a semi in the RVF because a full sythetic made their clutch slip on their tricked up race RVF.

I figured it is an older bike and probably wasn't designed for a full sythetic, and simply does not need it.

mikey62
28th November 2006, 12:09
Have just put new sprockets and O-ring chain on as I thought that might fix the problem. Oil change was pre new sprockets and chain so that only leaves the oil as the only other thing I have done since picking up the bike.

SimJen
28th November 2006, 12:25
Just use bike oil!
Who cares whether diesel oil is better, surely just using a standard off the shelf bike oil is easier than fucking around trying to be clever ;)
Standard motul/castrol etc is cheap enough to not worry about it.

F5 Dave
28th November 2006, 14:07
Good at least you are thinking. I had tried a bike oil (won’t mention) & I did notice that it seemed to shift reeal smooth with it. So I tried a few bikes with it. Then they all seemed to exhibit slight clutch slip. Cleaned the plates up & changed back to Motul stopped slipping. None of the bikes were new though.

This is anecdotal evidence hence I didn’t put the brand name in, but had the same issue on four bikes, two 2 strokes gear oil, two 4 strokes. They make good 2 stroke oil, but I figure their gear & 4 stroke oil is a little too slippery.

bumsex
29th November 2006, 19:37
make sure your clutch is operating correctly too. Do you clutch for your gear changes or not?

bumsex
29th November 2006, 19:38
by that I meant make sure cable freeplay is adjusted correctly and that the cluch completely disengages engine power when it is actuated (read previous post: sounded a bit vague)

mikey62
30th November 2006, 06:30
by that I meant make sure cable freeplay is adjusted correctly and that the cluch completely disengages engine power when it is actuated (read previous post: sounded a bit vague)

Good idea, I'll check the freeplay of the cable. May have twisted it or something when giving it the hell clean you do when you get a new (second-hand) bike.

Cheers

mikey62
30th November 2006, 18:46
My suggestion is think left field first & check that your chain tension & chain condition (no tightspots) aren’t affecting the gear change first off. Cush rubbers in rear wheel can get sloppy esp in Kawis of that era, so chain tension can creep up & make it seem worse (cushdrives can be packed out to reduce the slop).[/QUOTE]

Hey Dave, what would I use to pack the cush drive out ?

Cheers

F5 Dave
1st December 2006, 09:31
ok well this sounds bodgy, but I use duct tape or if it is really bad rubber inner tube, but that is grippy so tends to peel off as you force it in.

originally the rubber is firm in the interference of the sprocket holder to the wheel, but gets compressed. I haven't done a Kawasaki road bike, but on most there are enough flat surfaces to wrap some thick duct tape around to make up the space. The worst that can happen is it doesn't stay in place. It isn't holding anything together. Have never had any come out though.

This takes the slop out & can make a bike less jerky.

crazybigal
1st December 2006, 10:02
I did, when I first got my RVF, could very occasionally get the clutch to slip if I really gave it some. After I changed the oil, for some semi-sythetic, it never happened again. Obviously, I don't know what type of oil was in it it before hand.

I've had someone assure to me that this simply cannot be the truth and that I was mistaken (Possible) and someone else recommend I put a semi in the RVF because a full sythetic made their clutch slip on their tricked up race RVF.

I figured it is an older bike and probably wasn't designed for a full sythetic, and simply does not need it.

Its all about the friction modifiers, cars dont have a wet clutch.
my brother put some car oil (not sure what it was) in his ATK650 at it slipped like a bitch.

Mr. Peanut
1st December 2006, 10:10
Aside from the fact the Mr Motu says it's ok (y'know, the guy that has years of experience pulling bikes apart...)

Ever seen the compression ratio of your average diesel? That's before the oil has to go through the turbo...

I think I can trust it to look after my bike.

F5 Dave
1st December 2006, 10:54
Slipped like a bitch? Would have thought a slippery bitch was right up your ally Crazy-Bi-Gal.

[edit] oh crap! not only has someone thought of it, it's in your damn signature. . . I will be funny one day. . sigh.

FilthyLuka
5th December 2006, 11:15
I use castrol GTX 20-50 in my thumper and that runs fine... no problems and clutch bites nicely. The oil aint that expensive either... at one point i saw a deal at the warehouse (shut up) where you could buy 4 litres of the stuff for $15...

well, i use the thick shit cause ive got an old thumper, dunno how well it would fare in a zzr400. my bro uses castrol 15-40 in his '92 fireblade, perhaps you should try some of that?

Just my two cents

Denis

Morcs
5th December 2006, 16:09
Use Motul, that stuff is magic!

My last lot of oil (dont know what it was) had done less than 2000km, changed to motul, the engine sings insteads of screams - its smoother and faster.

twinkle
8th December 2006, 15:30
note that it is heavy duty diesel oil to use in bikes, not just any old diesel oil. If shell says it's ok to use diesel oil i'd say you can use it :yes:


"Be careful choosing diesel oils. Not all of them are universal. In addition to the API Service Category CI-4 PLUS for diesels, look for API Service Category SL."

http://rotella.com/qa/answerresult.php?rowid=169

mikey62
8th December 2006, 18:06
Did the oil change as well as a filter. Used a Shell product the was fully synth. Thanks Motu, made sure it was rated for Alision.

Motu
8th December 2006, 19:11
Sometimes you just don't know what you are getting - the bulk cheap shit in my tanks is supplied to me by Pennzoil as a fleet oil at a discount price.So I just carry one oil in 2 grades - everything that comes into my workshop gets it, doesn't matter what it is...a Mitsi Mirage,a WRX turbo,a lawnmower,a diesel turbo 4x4, a heavy truck....or a motorcycle.Just the one oil,no choices.

It's called Longlife,and is a HDEO made for heavy trucks subjected to extended oil drain intervals - approved by nearly every manufacturer,even Allison.It has one of the best additive packages out there,it needs to be to handle extended drain intervals.Cheap shit bulk fleet oil,my customers have no idea what I'm putting in their vehicles.