Mazda rotary Engines? [Archive]

EZAS

11th December 2006, 15:26

The hayabusa is 1300cc and puts about a little under 200hp.
A 1300cc rotary can put out over 320hp in N/A form.

Has anyone ever stuck MAZDA-made rotary engines in any bike's? I'm not referring to any Crappy NSU rotary engine as they are basically just pistons with a long conrod and unreliable. I know there was one of these made.

A Mazda rotary engine (IMO) would be great to stuff into a bike due to its power/weight ratio.

bungbung

11th December 2006, 15:28

The 'busa is stock of course. Have a google for modified 'busa outputs, try 400hp or more.

*edit Sorry, I just read NA. I'm not sure what a high-output NA 'busa might do.

bugjuice

11th December 2006, 15:30

if you can fit one into a frame, then go for it!!
I haven't heard of any NA rotaries putting out 320 tho.. tub'd yeah, but NA na.. There's some hugely powered busa's around. Tub'd, lookin up to 500 ponies. NA should see around 300..
Could probably make a drag bike (looking at the length) out of one, but after the motor and all the gear, it'd be pretty big imo for a bike.
There apparently was a company/person who built a smaller rotary for motorbikes tho.. didn't really take off tho

at the end of the day tho, you've still got to try to get that power down thru a contact patch the same size as a tennis ball..

pervert

11th December 2006, 15:32

Deano

11th December 2006, 15:32

Isn't the Suzuki RE5 a Wankel based rotary engine ? (Same as a Mazda)

I don't think I've seen the internal design of a NSU....pistons and conrods ???

hXc

11th December 2006, 15:33

There apparently was a company/person who built a smaller rotary for motorbikes tho.. didn't really take off thoRotary's started out in bikes. I don't know what make, but I know they did.

The only rotary bike I know of/can think of at the moment is the Suzuki RE5. Jantar has one.

onearmedbandit

11th December 2006, 15:37

Actually the first rotor was a used as a supercharger. I know there is at least one v8 in the 'states that is still running a wankel rotary supercharger.

Has anyone also considered what you would use for a gearbox on a 13b in a bike?

pervert

11th December 2006, 15:39

Has anyone also considered what you would use for a gearbox on a 13b in a bike?

Haha, how about a nice stick shift mounted by the tank?

McJim

11th December 2006, 15:43

Did Norton not stage some sort of comeback in the late eighties/early nineties with the Norton Commander rotary engined bike?

k14

11th December 2006, 15:51

Yep norton had a rotary too. Can't think of the name of it though. Yamaha was very close to releasing one too, didn't quite come to fruition though.

F5 Dave

11th December 2006, 15:56

Power to Weight? Haha! A friend has a 12A on her Garage floor & dude they aren’t a light engine! or particularly small. & that is without gearbox.

Do a search & you will find out that rotarys have a checkered history & are also reaal thirsty (Pass anything but a gas station was the old saying) a bit unreliable, bad on emissions & notoriously hard to silence if you want any power out of them.

320 out of a Mazda? Hmm, Maybe in modded form, or one of the late model turbos. In which case PB just did an article on a street legal turbo Busa with 700RWP. Ok that was built for records only, but. . .

On the + side the Rotaries produce a nice power sort of akin to an RZ350. Norton won an IOM but was disqual'd for oversize tank. There was a world of difference between the race bikes & the Commander road bikes. Again noise an issue.

But why would you bother? Far better to make a 2 stroke engine which will kick it seven ways to Sunday if you want power to weight. Large Jetski into bike frame? TulAris Project did that.

F5 Dave

11th December 2006, 16:05

ok here we are. Might even go around corners too.

Edbear

11th December 2006, 16:16

ok here we are. Might even go around corners too.

Wasn't that the 700cc reverse facing twin? Wonder what happened to it?

TLDV8

11th December 2006, 16:23

Did Norton not stage some sort of comeback in the late eighties/early nineties with the Norton Commander rotary engined bike?

Not to mention Steve Hislop (RIP) taking the win on the Norton Rotary in the OoM TT FI Senior.

http://www.iomtt.com/TTDatabase/Riders.aspx?ride_id=3723

Brian Crighton

http://www.nortonmotors.co.uk/Rotary%20Racing.htm

Norton Commander

http://www.nortonmotors.co.uk/Bikes.htm

F5 Dave

11th December 2006, 16:26

Motu

11th December 2006, 16:35

.

Has anyone also considered what you would use for a gearbox on a 13b in a bike?

AMC......or hydrostatic.

Mazda rotaries are really heavy for their size alright,like picking up an anvil.We used to say - size of a 4 cyl,power of a 6 cyl,thirst of an 8 cyl.....and the weight of all 3 combined.

TLDV8

11th December 2006, 16:39

oh yeah, maybe I'm confused, I was thinking Steve Spray was disqualled at IOM, er was it Trevor Nation, - see I told you I was confused!

The TulAris was retired a couple of years back after reasonable success.

I think they were the riders in the beginning with Steve Hislop according to the link taking the win in 1992.
I can't remember how Brian Crighton fit into it.He was part of the factory team perhaps and carring on with the Rotary when Norton pulled out.

The main problem with using a car engine like the Mazda is finding a suitable transmission to work in a motorcycle.You could retain a stock transmission with shaft drive but it is hardly sporty and would have a long wheelbase.

F5 Dave

11th December 2006, 16:42

Brian was the Tech genius behind the racing. The factory didn't really have the money but they still achieved good things. The was run as Rokon or summit for a couple of GPs. Brian can be found his twilight years in Classic Bike Magazine, not that I'm old enough to admit to reading it mind.

McJim

11th December 2006, 16:48

http://www.jpsnorton.com/history.asp

This link has some info on the JPS Norton rotary stuff.

TLDV8

11th December 2006, 16:49

Brian can be found his twilight years in Classic Bike Magazine, not that I'm old enough to admit to reading it mind.

I hadn't clicked to that,knew i had seen his name somewhere..I read CB,its jolly good stuff :laugh:

Without pushing the thread off topic to much.

Haydn's Daihatsu Rat Bike.. I need one of those,a project for the never,never.The closest i got was trying to find an engine with no luck.

http://www.dieselbike.net/daihatsu.htm

Mr. Peanut

11th December 2006, 17:06

I came up with this idea ages ago. But do it with a 20b.

EZAS

11th December 2006, 17:42

A "1300cc rotary" isn't really 1300cc either...they are considered to be over twice that capacity in racing classes.
...and bungbung's right, modded Busa engines come in well over 400hp, although they are force fed from what I've seen.
That is with reference to Turbo's pfff anyone can squeeze Huge HP with a hair dryer.
A Peripheral Ported 13B can put out 320hp while a Turbo 13B can put out over 600hp.

I wouldn't mind seeing a single rotor 650cc engine but rotary's just don't work with 1 cyclinder. With two rotors it evens the load an produces more torque (as does a 20B compared to a 13B). The 13B is only 250kg.

Despite what people say, Fuel injected Rotary's are relatively reliable, provided you thrash them on occasion (I know from expierence).
I also wouldn't mind a FASTER, ROAD version of this:
http://www.coroflot.com/public/individual_file.asp?individual_id=35803&portfolio_id=33667

TLDV8

11th December 2006, 18:16

The 13B is only 250kg.

There is the problem in itself as far as a car engine,it alone weighs more than a complete motorcycle to start with.

I believe the Ghostrider Turbo Busa in street trim was 499 HP. (fwiw)

imdying

11th December 2006, 18:17

Waste of time. The GSXR1000 would still rape it anywhere but top gear roll on (whoopie)... the same as it did the supercharged 2.3L Rocket III recently featured in a UK sportsbike mag.

TLDV8

11th December 2006, 18:19

I came up with this idea ages ago. But do it with a 20b.

I came up with an idea of a circular device on the end of an axle once, but you know..idea's :laugh:

The first step in any project is what you can and can not do and what it would take to be able to do the can not...Its gets easier after that.

nadroj

11th December 2006, 20:36

Wayne Curry from Taranaki (who now runs a blown alchohol hemi altered) built a Mazda rotary powered drag bike in the 80's with a sprint car clutch driving a 4 cylinder auto gearbox. Can't remember his 1/4 times but either launched hard or finished fast but not both at the same time.

WINJA

11th December 2006, 20:45

They Made A Norton Rgp588 That Was Pretty Fast , It Was A Rotary That Raced In The 500 Gp , It Started Life As A Cop Bike Or Something. They Had To Fuck Around With The Engine Rotation As The Gyros Were Making Wheelies To Easy

TLDV8

11th December 2006, 21:25

vtec

11th December 2006, 22:12

Yeah, putting a car rotary in a bike is definitely unfeasible, are they seriously 250kgs? That's way too much.

If you want huge power, and a feasible project, I met a guy on Sunday at Meremere, cause I was watching my mate Peter drag racing his Screaming Eagle. And there was this k5 gsxr1000, and I noticed through the side fairing, I could see what looked like a bit of blue samco hosing. So I took a closer look, and noticed that there was a cone filter cut through the fairing low on the left hand side... So I took a closer look down the side of the fairing, and noticed a turbo and custom manifold setup. I was suitably impressed.

Then I saw a guy walking over to me, turned out he was the owner. Got talking, and it turned out that he knew the guy that sold me my race CBR600 quite well. I also found out that once he got it dynotuned, it was putting out up to 250hp at the rear wheel (dependent on air temperature it had been as low as 240 on that tune), and that's with mostly standard internals. Bugger me, that's insane I thought. He also pointed out that it had been running like that for the last year, and he used it as a daily driver, and apparently Stroud had taken it for a blast around Puke. If I had the time, money, and inclination to do a project bike, I would probably just get in touch with that guy, and get him to walk me through a 1 litre superbike turbo conversion. Currently, I'm still having heaps of fun with the power of my supersport race bike.

What?

12th December 2006, 05:43

Rotary's started out in bikes. I don't know what make, but I know they did..

Rubbish.

The first Wankel-engined vehicles were NSU cars in the late 50's. Even Mazda's use of them pre-dated any motorcycle applications by several years, as did some light aircraft and snowmobile manufaturers. Suzuki, Van Veen et al got in on the action just as most of the rest of the world were realising that rotary engines were not the way of the future. Yamaha had one in the wings, but noticed that the RE5 very nearly consigned Suzuki to the history books, so it was never released.

eliot-ness

12th December 2006, 06:52

Rubbish.

The first Wankel-engined vehicles were NSU cars in the late 50's. Even Mazda's use of them pre-dated any motorcycle applications by several years, as did some light aircraft and snowmobile manufaturers. Suzuki, Van Veen et al got in on the action just as most of the rest of the world were realising that rotary engines were not the way of the future. Yamaha had one in the wings, but noticed that the RE5 very nearly consigned Suzuki to the history books, so it was never released.

Sory but you are wrong. The first use of a rotary engine was on a road bike. A home built engine, designed and built by a guy called Mercer in Bradford, UK and fitted in a BSA frame was on the road a couple of years before the Wankel version. The earliest rotary engine I know of is in the Dewsbury Transport Museum. It was built in the 1920s. The rotary principle from which the engine was developed was originally used as an oil pump, some air conditioning units still use it. Nortons were far in advance of any other rotary manufacturer. They were the only one to successfully use air cooling. Motor bikes were only a small part of the operation. Most of their engines were sold to the US Air Force for use in pilotless drone spotter planes. There are still a few Norton Rotary bikes around. Saw a nice one a couple of months ago in Warkworth and another pretty rough version at the Puhoi Tavern.

Bonez

12th December 2006, 15:00

I'm not referring to any Crappy NSU rotary engine as they are basically just pistons with a long conrod Crap http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine

EZAS

12th December 2006, 18:19

Ghost riders 1300cc turbo = 499 HP = A fair chunk of cash.
Rangi's 13BT = Less than $4,000 (In total including the car) and a replacement clutch = 374hp@12psi

Dyno found here:
http://ezas.maxnet.co.nz

imdying

12th December 2006, 18:56

TLDV8

12th December 2006, 19:26

The 13B is only 250kg.

On second thought's,that can't be right can it ?

250 kg is around 550 lbs,that is cast iron block and head V8 weight.

Maybe its 250 lbs (113kgs) :confused:

TLDV8

12th December 2006, 19:33

Ghosts 499HP busa = scare you shiteless
Rangis 374hp 13BT = boring piece of shite

I was given the DVD with the 499hp Busa.
Any bike that makes a GSXR1000 look like a slug and does 170mph ? wheelies is up there.I think it also had lots of aftermarket parts so is light,200 to 250 kgs wet perhaps.
Maybe flag the rotor motor and build a E J Potter 500 hp Hilborn fuel injected small block Chev powered replica.
Rev it up in gear and get pushed off the rear stand,classic.

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/05/08/ej-potter-michigan-madman/

http://www.draglist.com/artman/publish/daily_stories/article_1030.shtml

http://www.thefang.co.uk/v-8s.htm

Buddy L

12th December 2006, 20:33

I remember reading that a brand called Hercule made rotary dirt bikes, made so much power that they would bend the spokes on full power and had to make trottle stops and also a longer twist grip so you couldn't get the full power.
But their is also going to be a Norton rotary race bike at the classic festive of speed next year in feburay.

VasalineWarrior

12th December 2006, 20:52

Rangi's 13BT = Less than $4,000 (In total including the car) and a replacement clutch = 374hp@12psi

Which your ZX-9 will still smoke at the lights :whocares:

nadroj

12th December 2006, 21:29

[QUOTE=TLDV8;859068]
Maybe flag the rotor motor and build a E J Potter 500 hp Hilborn fuel injected small block Chev powered replica.
Rev it up in gear and get pushed off the rear stand,classic.

Wally Pushky (sp) an Aussie Abbo rode one here in the late 70's owned and built by Roscoe McGlashon of land speed fame. He was contracted to run 3 times each meet with each run more crossed up. Roscoe also rode it at Meremere with an offer also made to a Kiwi to have a try but he declined as his 900 Kwaka was winning comfortably at the time. Mark is now a top Harley dragster jock in Aus.

TLDV8

12th December 2006, 22:14

Wally Pushky (sp) an Aussie Abbo rode one here in the late 70's owned and built by Roscoe McGlashon of land speed fame. He was contracted to run 3 times each meet with each run more crossed up. Roscoe also rode it at Meremere with an offer also made to a Kiwi to have a try but he declined as his 900 Kwaka was winning comfortably at the time. Mark is now a top Harley dragster jock in Aus.

Therewas also the guy from Aussie with the quick volkswagen powered bike but can' remember his name..Joe ????

There was also a guy from up north who did the V8 drag bike thing here..Mr X ? with a 332 ford Y block along the lines of Pushky/Potter doings...or something like that.

It would be banned now being to dangerous or something...Fun is off the menu,mind you it would help to be a bit troppo being pushed off the stand of a valve bouncing V8. :laugh:

What?

13th December 2006, 06:02

Sory but you are wrong. The first use of a rotary engine was on a road bike. A home built engine, designed and built by a guy called Mercer in Bradford, UK and fitted in a BSA frame was on the road a couple of years before the Wankel version.

Quite right, good sir - my apologies. I got "Wankel" stuck in my tiny brain and overlooked the fact that Felix was not the first to build a rotary.
That said, the first rotary appears to have been designed in 1887 by an Aussie chap, and the first patented rotary engine for cycle use was patented in 1895. Neither design was what we tend to think of as a "rotary" these days.

scumdog

13th December 2006, 07:28

Therewas also the guy from Aussie with the quick volkswagen powered bike but can' remember his name..Joe ????

There was also a guy from up north who did the V8 drag bike thing here..Mr X ? with a 332 ford Y block along the lines of Pushky/Potter doings...or something like that.

It would be banned now being to dangerous or something...Fun is off the menu,mind you it would help to be a bit troppo being pushed off the stand of a valve bouncing V8. :laugh:

New street-legal Boss Hog has a 504c.i. big-block Chev (About 8.5+litres), launching it like that would be "exciting" eh?

EZAS

13th December 2006, 15:45

I've found a list of the correct weights of the Engine Blocks:

From Performance Car Forum

Might give you a rough idea.....................

Mazda 12A and 13B 260 (109)
Mazda 10A rotary 224 (20) (Cosmo) (bare)
Mazda 10A rotary 268 (20) (R100) (bare)
Mazda 10A rotary 190 (27) (R100) (without thermal reactor)
Mazda 10A rotary 280 (27) (R100) (with thermal reactor)
Mazda 12A rotary 348 (20) (RX7) (with oil and water)
Mazda 12A rotary 356 (20) (Japanese model turbo, EFI)
Mazda 12A rotary 275 (85) (w/flywheel, t.reactor, no alt.)
Mazda 13A rotary 301 (20) (R130 Lucia - Japan only) (bare)
Mazda 13B race 242 (95) 2-rotor race motor, with accessories
Mazda 13G 3-rotor race 319 (95) 3-rotor race motor, with accessories
Mazda 13J 4-rotor race 396 (95) 4-rotor race motor, with accessories

The middle figures are all in pounds.

To convert pounds to kilograms, multiply pounds by 0.45 kg/lb

The engine I would be wanting would only weigh less than 120Kg's an would put out over 300hp and still be N/A. I would intend on peripheral porting it to obtain 300hp. How to mount it to the frame?