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mark247
20th June 2007, 12:09
Ok, so i was checking out the EXUP system on my FZR. Thought it would be easier if i took the exhaust off and put it on the bench so i did. While the exhaust was off i thought i would turn the bike over just for the hell of it to see what it sounded like, so i did and it went pop pop pop but never started, so i just shrugged and continued looking at the EXUP stuff. Now this morning i put the exhaust back on how it was and i cant get the damn bike started! Hardly firing at all ( exhaust isnt getting warm ) and it backfired a few times. Engine started hasnt helped, WHAT DID I DO WRONG???

I hope I havent burnt a valve, i cant really see how i did that because it didnt even properly start with no exhaust... any positive input is appreciated..

Paul in NZ
20th June 2007, 13:08
Hard to say but it could have not started with the ex off for the same reason it wont start now.... Why were you looking at the EXUP??

FZR400's apparently get harder to start as the valves get worn....

Cheers

avgas
20th June 2007, 13:12
sure u havent flooded the carbs?

mark247
20th June 2007, 13:14
Hard to say but it could have not started with the ex off for the same reason it wont start now.... Why were you looking at the EXUP??

FZR400's apparently get harder to start as the valves get worn....

Cheers

I was looking at the exup because it was disconnected. But the entire valve has been gutted, so yeah, i just put it back together and left it how it was without any exup. I dont know why, but i got the fzr going after a while, after turning it over again and again. Engine start didnt help. But enventually it started. I think it was just a mixture of the fact it was probably flooded, nearly froozen, and the battery was not fully charged.

Paul in NZ
20th June 2007, 13:37
Keep an eye on it. They are difficult to start (apparently) but its an early sign of trouble to come... Probably flooded it...

mark247
20th June 2007, 13:58
Keep an eye on it. They are difficult to start (apparently) but its an early sign of trouble to come... Probably flooded it...

Trouble to come? You mean valve troubles?

Paul in NZ
20th June 2007, 15:11
Trouble to come? You mean valve troubles?


Its an FZR400 so yes - valve trouble! (eventually)

mark247
20th June 2007, 15:14
Its an FZR400 so yes - valve trouble! (eventually)

What type of valve trouble? Burnt valves? Reshimming? Valve grinds?

mark247
20th June 2007, 21:28
Hi, I used to have an '89 FZR400. The EXUP mechanism can be a real pain in the ass when it misbehaves and you forget to check whether it is seized and instead send it to the mechanics who spend hours trying to diagnose the problem...

Anyway, I would guess that you may have left the EXUP in the fully closed position, effectively closing the exhaust flow. My old bike had a broken bush, which kept the valve from opening.

So basically, grab a pair of pliers and try to turn the EXUP shaft so that the valve is open and try starting it again - it should start if the problem was the closed EXUP valve.

BTW, if the EXUP mechanism is working, it would be best to keep it connected.

PS: I have a couple of brand-new EXUP bushes lying around in the garage (ordered too many). PM me if you want them. :niceone:

The thing is i dont really know what the exup is ment to look like. I took the exhaust off and where the cables are ment to hook onto the actual valve, all there was was a bolt. So i think its been gutted. Would i be correct in saying so? I took the cover off so i could see into the exhaust and there was nothing in there.....

Paul in NZ
20th June 2007, 21:34
The thing is i dont really know what the exup is ment to look like. I took the exhaust off and where the cables are ment to hook onto the actual valve, all there was was a bolt. So i think its been gutted. Would i be correct in saying so? I took the cover off so i could see into the exhaust and there was nothing in there.....

Check my fzr400 exup thread for pictures of the valve.....

Yeah - FZR400's seem to need frequent attention to the valves... Burnt, shimmed, cleaned etc...

slob
20th June 2007, 21:41
I was looking at the exup because it was disconnected. But the entire valve has been gutted, so yeah, i just put it back together and left it how it was without any exup.

I had a '89 FZR400 which developed a problem where it wouldn't idle - I would have to hold the throttle open and it would just "idle" roughly, only to stall as soon as I let go of the throttle.

So turns out the problem was the EXUP valve being stuck due to a shattered bush. I removed all the EXUP bits, decoked and polished them, replaced the broken bush (got a couple of extras bushes if anyone wants them), and then it ran sweet as.

If your bike isn't smoking like a steam engine, then the valves are probably ok (at least the exhaust ones). Are you sure that all the EXUP internals have been removed? Sounds similar to my problem, but if there's no restriction in the EXUP, then I don't know..

mark247
20th June 2007, 21:50
I had a '89 FZR400 which developed a problem where it wouldn't idle - I would have to hold the throttle open and it would just "idle" roughly, only to stall as soon as I let go of the throttle.

So turns out the problem was the EXUP valve being stuck due to a shattered bush. I removed all the EXUP bits, decoked and polished them, replaced the broken bush (got a couple of extras bushes if anyone wants them), and then it ran sweet as.

If your bike isn't smoking like a steam engine, then the valves are probably ok (at least the exhaust ones). Are you sure that all the EXUP internals have been removed? Sounds similar to my problem, but if there's no restriction in the EXUP, then I don't know..

I just looked at the pics from the other fzr400 exup thread and my exup valve is totally not there. I read on some fzr site that a lot of racers ( im not racing mine, but anyway ) remove the exup anyway because its all just added weight. I also read on that site at its not the exhaust valves and shag themselves, its the intake valves.

The site i am talking of is here http://www.fzrarchives.com/fzr400/FZR400%20Frequently%20Asked%20Questions.html

"The EXUP valve is a servo motor controlled exhaust valve that increases back pressure to your motor under certain circumstances, increasing torque while reducing emissions. This option was only present on the California model FZR400's, and was promptly tossed at the race track."

"Yamaha apparently made the intake valves out of a very soft metal (kind of a good thing as replacing the valve seats is incredibly expensive). After a couple of seasons of pounding the seats at 14+K, the valves tend to "cup" meaning the edges get worn, then the valve becomes shaped like a tulip."

"The most tell-tale sign that your valves are out of adjustment is hard starting."

slob
20th June 2007, 21:51
The thing is i dont really know what the exup is ment to look like. I took the exhaust off and where the cables are ment to hook onto the actual valve, all there was was a bolt. So i think its been gutted. Would i be correct in saying so? I took the cover off so i could see into the exhaust and there was nothing in there.....

Whoa, you read that post before I edited it!

Ok, the EXUP valve is a wedge-shaped object (see attachment) that is connected to the cable. If all you saw was a bolt, then yeah, sounds like someone's removed the EXUP valve and left the bolt so the cables would still be connected to something..

mark247
20th June 2007, 21:53
left the bolt so the cables would still be connected to something..

nah the cables arent connected to anything. I think the bolt is just there so i dont get an exhaust leak out of where the valve should be.

slob
20th June 2007, 21:55
"The most tell-tale sign that your valves are out of adjustment is hard starting."

Sounds like the most probable cause, but why would it suddenly stop running just after you took the exhaust off? If the valves were cupped, then wouldn't you have had the problem prior to removing the exhaust?

mark247
20th June 2007, 21:58
Sounds like the most probable cause, but why would it suddenly stop running just after you took the exhaust off? If the valves were cupped, then wouldn't you have had the problem prior to removing the exhaust?

Yeah, well it starts fine now, ( needs a few seconds of turning over when cold ) i think it was just been a stubborn flooded bike :P

It is only a little annoying to start when its cold morning for example.

slob
20th June 2007, 22:02
Yeah, well it starts fine now, ( needs a few seconds of turning over when cold ) i think it was just been a stubborn flooded bike :P

It is only a little annoying to start when its cold morning for example.

Sweet! Good to hear! Mine cost me $800 before the problem was discovered! Happy riding dude!

mark247
20th June 2007, 22:03
Sweet! Good to hear! Mine cost me $800 before the problem was discovered! Happy riding dude!

Tom on here just bought a 1992 fzr400 for $800. Its all mint ( looks real good ) other than the fact it needs a valve grind and reshimming, it doesnt start at all. But after thats resolve it should be a goodie, hopefully.

ZeroIndex
5th July 2007, 23:53
Tom on here just bought a 1992 fzr400 for $800. Its all mint ( looks real good ) other than the fact it needs a valve grind and reshimming, it doesnt start at all. But after thats resolve it should be a goodie, hopefully.
Where would one take their FZR400 to get the valves ground and reshimmed? Any normal bike shop that repairs bikes, if so, how much would it set one back $$$?

Paul in NZ
6th July 2007, 06:07
Where would one take their FZR400 to get the valves ground and reshimmed? Any normal bike shop that repairs bikes, if so, how much would it set one back $$$?

Depends on how thorough one intends to be.... It might cost me $1,500 minus labour by the time i sort everything out but I'm replacing all the gaskets, valve seals, piston rings, O rings etc and doing a few other things.

Add in the shop labour and.... gnnnnah! It will cost more than the bikes worth. Cheaper if you drop the engine and just take that in!!!!

mark247
6th July 2007, 08:33
Where would one take their FZR400 to get the valves ground and reshimmed? Any normal bike shop that repairs bikes, if so, how much would it set one back $$$?

It would probably cost about $600 at some YAMAHA bike shop ( Bayride are a rip ) , but if you take it to your trusty mechanic he would probably do it for $350 - $400.

If your bike starts fine, and it has good compression then dont worry about it! If you wanted to know if your bike needed it, get a leak down or a compression test done on it, that can be done at any bike shop. That will let you know what is going on inside the engine compression wise.

Paul in NZ
6th July 2007, 09:07
It would probably cost about $600 at some YAMAHA bike shop ( Bayride are a rip ) , but if you take it to your trusty mechanic he would probably do it for $350 - $400.

If your bike starts fine, and it has good compression then dont worry about it! If you wanted to know if your bike needed it, get a leak down or a compression test done on it, that can be done at any bike shop. That will let you know what is going on inside the engine compression wise.

Assuming you can reuse the valves and headgasket - if not - be prepared to spend! EX Valves are $72 EACH and there are 8 of them....

mark247
2nd August 2007, 16:35
Just a question.

I'm thinking i might do the rings on my bike sometime and check the valves etc. Where is a good place to get rings and gaskets in New Zealand? And what price am i going to be looking at?

Cheers.

FROSTY
2nd August 2007, 18:50
Dude you are asking questions already answered in a pretty current thread.
Have a read through Paul In NZs thred on his restoration project

Paul in NZ
2nd August 2007, 19:20
Mark - If you are keen I suggest Jeaves on KB or a contact I have in the USA

mark247
2nd August 2007, 22:07
Dude you are asking questions already answered in a pretty current thread.
Have a read through Paul In NZs thred on his restoration project

Sorry, thought it would be quicker to just ask on here........ my bad

mark247
2nd August 2007, 22:09
Mark - If you are keen I suggest Jeaves on KB or a contact I have in the USA

What source would you say is cheaper? At the moment it's just an idea.

Paul in NZ
3rd August 2007, 08:59
What source would you say is cheaper? At the moment it's just an idea.

Similar but it depends on the exchange rate. You need to shop around a bit. Remember that you can do a cheap job and gain next to nothing or try to do it properly. Once you open up an engine there are lots of things that could need sorting...

These bikes are labour intensive so doing it yourself is a big saving but some ability / tools are required. For a top end overhaul - assuming everything is reasonably OK I'd allow around $1500 for parts and machining - my bill will be up around $2000....

mark247
4th August 2007, 12:17
Similar but it depends on the exchange rate. You need to shop around a bit. Remember that you can do a cheap job and gain next to nothing or try to do it properly. Once you open up an engine there are lots of things that could need sorting...

These bikes are labour intensive so doing it yourself is a big saving but some ability / tools are required. For a top end overhaul - assuming everything is reasonably OK I'd allow around $1500 for parts and machining - my bill will be up around $2000....

Im on a budget, if i was to do anything it would be take the head off, check the valves ( do what needs to be done ) and do the rings / hone etc. I have the 3EN1 1988 FZR400 and i hope i can still get parts for it. ZeroIndex has a 87 FZR400 and the yamaha shop he could get parts but said if it was a 89 then he would of been able to. Eeek.

Paul in NZ
4th August 2007, 12:22
Mines a 88 1WG and its not a problem if you know where to look - even for a dealer...

mark247
4th August 2007, 12:31
Mines a 88 1WG and its not a problem if you know where to look - even for a dealer...

I looked at the photos of your fzr400 at the beginning of your thread and it looks the same as mine with the air intakes above the lights so from this website

http://www.madsi.co.uk/models.aspx

I conclude mine is the same as yours. The FZR400 EXUP 3EN1(1988) with the serial number range 1WG-043101 - 1WG-080000.

Paul in NZ
4th August 2007, 12:44
I looked at the photos of your fzr400 at the beginning of your thread and it looks the same as mine with the air intakes above the lights so from this website

http://www.madsi.co.uk/models.aspx

I conclude mine is the same as yours. The FZR400 EXUP 3EN1(1988) with the serial number range 1WG-043101 - 1WG-080000.

I think the yanks call em 1wg's as thats the casting numbers... who knows but most stuff is similar between em all it seems...

mark247
5th August 2007, 20:40
I think the yanks call em 1wg's as thats the casting numbers... who knows but most stuff is similar between em all it seems...

There are a set of rings for my bike on ebay for $300NZD delivered. Is that a reasonable price? Seems steap.

I went for a 450km ride today and i had to top her up with oil, and the rider behind me informed me when i rev my bike up ( 12000rpm+ ) it smoked quite a bit, seems like rings. I am going to get a leak down test in the next few days and take it from there.

Paul in NZ
5th August 2007, 20:49
There are a set of rings for my bike on ebay for $300NZD delivered. Is that a reasonable price? Seems steap.

I went for a 450km ride today and i had to top her up with oil, and the rider behind me informed me when i rev my bike up ( 12000rpm+ ) it smoked quite a bit, seems like rings. I am going to get a leak down test in the next few days and take it from there.

Or valves - which is worse.... $300 NZ delivered is good but I'd measure the bores first - it might need a rebore...

mark247
5th August 2007, 21:13
Or valves - which is worse.... $300 NZ delivered is good but I'd measure the bores first - it might need a rebore...

I thought if the valves were worn it would smoke more when engine braking etc?

The only time it noticebly smokes is when i give it a hand full, which i assumed would be the rings.

And when you say it might need a rebore, do you mean oversized pistons? Or can you reslieve them or w/e?

Thanks a lot.

Paul in NZ
5th August 2007, 21:39
Rebore i think...

All engines are a bit different for some odd reason - is the smoke white or black? This one was running rich!

How many kms has it done?

mark247
5th August 2007, 21:44
Rebore i think...

All engines are a bit different for some odd reason - is the smoke white or black? This one was running rich!

How many kms has it done?

I am not sure what colour the smoke was because all my mate said was its smoking when to give it guts. It is burning oil though because i had to top it up.

I really hope it doesn't need a rebore because new pistons etc will cost more than i can afford. I hate being a student!!

I was just reading on some EXUPbrotherhood forums about a guy who had a very simular example to what i have ( smoking when giving it guts ) and he got the bore honed, new rings, and valve guide seals, and its all good now. But as you said, all engines are different.

My bike has about 53000km on it.

Paul in NZ
5th August 2007, 21:46
I was just reading on some EXUPbrotherhood forums about a guy who had a very simular example to what i have ( smoking when giving it guts ) and he got the bore honed, new rings, and valve guide seals, and its all good now. But as you said, all engines are different.

My bike has about 53000km on it.

Pretty much my situation but its still not a cheap operation...

mark247
5th August 2007, 21:51
Pretty much my situation but its still not a cheap operation...

Hmm well i will have to wait and see. I am going to take the bike to the shop tomorrow.

Cheers.

moT
5th August 2007, 22:31
Yell abuse at it and beat it with a bone from that weeks roast dinner! it works like a charm if your bike goes all sooky bubba hit it some more until it shuts up

mark247
6th August 2007, 07:33
Yell abuse at it and beat it with a bone from that weeks roast dinner! it works like a charm if your bike goes all sooky bubba hit it some more until it shuts up

shud upppppp, you're the one that has to say "righy tighty lefty loosey" before undoing a bolt lol. At least i know SOMETHING! =P

mark247
6th August 2007, 19:33
farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk. got the head off today and know whats wrong! some of the valves are fucked! But i have a spear fzr400 head which has some good valves in it so im going to match up the shims and stuff and make one good head. Also it needs new rings like there is no tomorrow, so im going to get some of them. And it needs a meaaaaaan good hone or whatever on #4 cylinder. I am going to fix it up then sell it off. I have had motorbikes for the last year or so now, time for a project car for a while i think.

Paul in NZ
6th August 2007, 19:41
Bugger....

Show us some piccies... If ya can... I'd find it interesting...

mark247
6th August 2007, 19:45
Bugger....

Show us some piccies... If ya can... I'd find it interesting...

The bike is at the shop. I have been working on it myself with the help of the mechanic there. I am going in there tomorrow to sort out the valves so if i remember I'll take some photos.

The most expensive part is gonna be the rings, how much did you pay? As i said i found i can get them for $300 somewhere, but if you know of the better places for a better price could you please inform me.

Also, how much do you think would be a good price to sell it after its running again? The exup has been taken out of it and it is in what i would cool "good" condition for its age overall. Few cracks in the fairings etc but it all goes togeather well.

Thanks a lot Paul.

Paul in NZ
6th August 2007, 21:05
The bike is at the shop. I have been working on it myself with the help of the mechanic there. I am going in there tomorrow to sort out the valves so if i remember I'll take some photos.

The most expensive part is gonna be the rings, how much did you pay? As i said i found i can get them for $300 somewhere, but if you know of the better places for a better price could you please inform me.

Also, how much do you think would be a good price to sell it after its running again? The exup has been taken out of it and it is in what i would cool "good" condition for its age overall. Few cracks in the fairings etc but it all goes togeather well.

Thanks a lot Paul.

Measure the bores first - any engine shop should do it pretty quickly.

$300 delivered is about what i paid for genuine Yamaha one but get a quote from Jeaves on KB - 2 weeks min delivery. Good idea to get an athena top end gasket set as well - can't remember how much....

Whats it worth? Gawd - it's worth what someone will pay.... It depends on its location, condition and all the small stuff like rego, tyres etc which make up a huge % of a cheaper bikes price. Check out trademe - some ask $3,800 for later ones and get no nibbles and others go for $2,500 to $3,000... Someone grabbed one for $800 that needed work...

mark247
7th August 2007, 14:50
So i went into the shop today to see if i could make any progress. Instead of buying new valves i decided to try and mix and match two fzr400 heads ( both with shagged inlet valves ) and find 8 good valves to make one good head. But both heads had too many shagged inlet valves to be any good. So i have bought a second hand head in good condition from the japanese bike wrecker place in christchurch along with a set of pistons with rings and a barrel which he tells me are in good condition.

So after taking all the valves out trying to work out 8 good ones and realising too many were stuffed, all i managed to do was pull the barrel off.

Oh well, parts should be here in the next couple of days, then i will take the old pistons out and put all the replacement parts on.

Here are some photos, I tried to take a photo to show how stuffed one of the valves were but it was too blurry. Oh well!

Paul in NZ
7th August 2007, 14:59
Looks a tidy bike...

Photo is a bit fuzzy - why are the valves stuffed?

mark247
7th August 2007, 15:05
Looks a tidy bike...

Photo is a bit fuzzy - why are the valves stuffed?

It is a reasonably tidy bike, has a dent in the tank cover which is the worst part of it.

Most of the valves have an obvious lip where they have indented into the head. It is what happened to my mates FZR400 as well, causing it to loose compression like mine, but mine was blowing smoke as well, and from the look of the barrels the oil is coming through the rings.

With all the replacement parts it should be back on the road. Then I am planning on selling it on as soon as possible because I am spending too much money on bikes at the moment. lol!

Paul in NZ
7th August 2007, 15:27
It is a reasonably tidy bike, has a dent in the tank cover which is the worst part of it.

Most of the valves have an obvious lip where they have indented into the head. It is what happened to my mates FZR400 as well, causing it to loose compression like mine, but mine was blowing smoke as well, and from the look of the barrels the oil is coming through the rings.

With all the replacement parts it should be back on the road. Then I am planning on selling it on as soon as possible because I am spending too much money on bikes at the moment. lol!

I assume its the inlet valves that are gone??

Money spent on bikes is an investment in your mental health! It should be tax deductable...

mark247
7th August 2007, 15:30
I assume its the inlet valves that are gone??

Money spent on bikes is an investment in your mental health! It should be tax deductable...

yep of course. inlets it in. the exhaust ones are fine. oh well! fingers crossed the new head that is coming is a minter!

and i totally agree. i think people should pay me to work on my own bike because its for the good of society that i am in the shed working on my bike, instead of out being a hoolagan on it.

moT
7th August 2007, 18:46
are you useing my old head!!!!! to mix and match

mark247
7th August 2007, 18:58
are you useing my old head!!!!! to mix and match

i was going to, but every single inlet valve in your old head was totally and utterly FUCKED

moT
7th August 2007, 20:29
its true fzrs have valve problems!!!! get a NC30 they have no problems except a reg/rec which is easely fixed and impoundments

mark247
8th August 2007, 17:02
my head and barrel etc should be here on friday. and my head gasket and base gasket should be here tomorrow. so hopefully this saturday she'll be back and going!

mark247
15th August 2007, 17:49
So i we got the bike going today. The replacement head i got was farked so i just nicked a few of the good valves out of it and put them in my head. The mechanic ( had it at the shop, but i have done a lot of the work myself in there ) got it together and it still had bad as compression on 2 ofd the cylinders, so he got the valves tested and we did a valve grind and gave some of them the mean buff ups and put them back in. Got the engine back together and managed to get it going. Now all its needs is a tune up and it should be all back together and on the road again. ANYONE wanna buy a FZR400??? It will be running mint!!

mark247
17th August 2007, 17:53
Ok the bike has a little problem now. Since i have had it back it has been running all well until now. I was riding along and it started back firing and spluttering if i try to rev it over 6000rpm. It then fixed itself but has started doing it again now. If i have it in neutral it revs out with no problems at all, but as soon as i try to rev it out when it is actually moving it just back fires and splutters. Any ideas?

I have put a bottle of carb cleaner in the tank, and i checked the spark plug caps but it is still doing it. Help!

TonyB
17th August 2007, 18:28
I've got no idea why it wouldn't start initially, but as Paul in NZ said, hard starting can be a sign of the valves being out of adjustment. Its not something that would happen instantly though.

As an aside, if you've flooded an engine, the best way of starting it it to give it full throttle and leave it there, don't let it off at all until it starts.

edit: just noticed the thread went for 4 pages....remind me not to post when I have the flu

Paul in NZ
17th August 2007, 20:15
Ok the bike has a little problem now. Since i have had it back it has been running all well until now. I was riding along and it started back firing and spluttering if i try to rev it over 6000rpm. It then fixed itself but has started doing it again now. If i have it in neutral it revs out with no problems at all, but as soon as i try to rev it out when it is actually moving it just back fires and splutters. Any ideas?

I have put a bottle of carb cleaner in the tank, and i checked the spark plug caps but it is still doing it. Help!

Go back to the shop and do another leak down test - could be head gasket not sealed or carb related....