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Macstar
8th December 2007, 15:23
I started the who has crashed thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=57322)a few months back now. As mentioned, in this time 8 or 9 of our official / unofficial members have crashed. Today, another two riders went down (both have crashed before too).

In my opinion, today's bins came down to inexperience and a lack of concentration, but not fortunately speed. I am going to strongly recommend that our riders go to the Monday and Wednesday night "learn to ride" evenings that are held through KB for free by experienced riders.

I'll also go as far as to say that the first rider that binned should seriously think before getting back on his bike. You've crashed 3 or 4 times now and twice on separate occassions I've seen you overtake cars with oncoming cars coming straight at you. Both times you were lucky that the oncoming cars pulled over to let you through.

I may sound like a wanker saying this after you guys binned cause I know you'll already be pissed off with what happened today - but I think it needs to be said. I'm mates with a lot of you guys and don't wanna go to any funerals.

If any other KBers can offer any other practical riding programmes where our members can build up their cornering, braking, defensive driving skills etc it would be much appreciated.

I don't want this thread to turn into a finger pointing bollucking, what I want is some useful suggestions on how beginner, internediate and advanced riders can build up their skills.

Thank you.

yungatart
8th December 2007, 15:35
RRRS course!

sunhuntin
8th December 2007, 15:46
what if there isnt a course locally? im almost 100% that theres nothing here in wangas, least, none of the local riders have ever mentioned it.

but yeh... too many offs. lets try and keep the holiday rider road toll down as low as possible. listen to your guts... im often able to tell that rides gonna end bad before i even start. last time, i came close to deliberatly binning just to get it over with... ended up jammed in a fence post, which was a better result than a deliberate bin. that was months ago [a year or more now!] and i havent felt it since.

ride in such a manner that you do go home after to see your loved ones. ride in a way that will mean you get to watch them open their gifts and give you a kiss on new years.

be safe, everyone.

fireball
8th December 2007, 15:52
we may be doing the Quiet Monday Ride still waiting to hear what EJ is up to
pm me for more details

yungatart
8th December 2007, 15:53
what if there isnt a course locally? im almost 100% that theres nothing here in wangas, least, none of the local riders have ever mentioned it.



RRRS instructors will travel to your area to run a course.
We organised one here in HB in May, it was fantastic!
Jump on the RRRS website to see how to go about it.

carbacca
8th December 2007, 15:57
make that 3 bins...the third being me

Macstar
8th December 2007, 16:02
make that 3 bins...the third being me

What? Today?

Macstar
8th December 2007, 16:03
RRRS instructors will travel to your area to run a course.
We organised one here in HB in May, it was fantastic!
Jump on the RRRS website to see how to go about it.

Thank you, will do.

carbacca
8th December 2007, 16:16
yeah today...thats why you lost me for a while, kim and james found me though, had to wait 20mins for the carbs to clear before i can get going again

Macstar
8th December 2007, 16:22
yeah today...thats why you lost me for a while, kim and james found me though, had to wait 20mins for the carbs to clear before i can get going again

How does the TEC crash? By the sounds you are OK. I guess you'll be signing up with me for practical lessons too then?

EJK
8th December 2007, 16:26
Join us on Wednesday. The Wednesday night ride :yes:


I'm mates with a lot of you guys and don't wanna go to any funerals.

Indeed we don't

xwhatsit
8th December 2007, 16:27
Macstar, you rock.

Completely agree. Too much testoterone and too little experience.

I'm a complete n00b, I've got no illusions. Therefore I try to ride accordingly.

carbacca
8th December 2007, 16:28
yeah i was wondering about that too.....

hit that M*****F****** big rock that slid of the cliff and sat smack bang in the middle of the road and lowsided at about 70kph. leathers and gloves took most of it, broke mirrors and indicators, scratched fairings the usual. got it back up and waited til it started and limped home

i have enough bits to get it back on the road but i might give riding a break in the meantime. want to give it some though wtf i did wrong, as you all probably know i am a bit of a nana rider anyways so i dunno what went wrong

Macstar
8th December 2007, 16:31
Just spoke to RRRS, next course is mid Jan. They suggested two bike instructors that may be able to run a special group course for us in the mean time.

Anyone know how I can get in contact with these people:

Lee Hurley & John Wright.

I'm also thinking maybe ACC might give some support for something like this.

Macstar
8th December 2007, 16:35
Macstar, you rock.

Completely agree. Too much testoterone and too little experience.

I'm a complete n00b, I've got no illusions. Therefore I try to ride accordingly.

Thanks, but look I ain't no saint or pro-rider either and am very interested in checking one of these programmes out for me too.


yeah i was wondering about that too.....

hit that M*****F****** big rock that slid of the cliff and sat smack bang in the middle of the road and lowsided at about 70kph. leathers and gloves took most of it, broke mirrors and indicators, scratched fairings the usual. got it back up and waited til it started and limped home

i have enough bits to get it back on the road but i might give riding a break in the meantime. want to give it some though wtf i did wrong, as you all probably know i am a bit of a nana rider anyways so i dunno what went wrong

Yeah, you'd be the last person I'd expect to go down. This guts me man.

twinkle
8th December 2007, 16:35
those RRRS courses look fun, i've been meaning to do one of those some time.

and ehab get your bloody headset fixed.

ital916
8th December 2007, 16:39
Hey, yeah fuck man i binned gain. It wasn't lack of concentration cos i was focusing on the road just bad braking and hitting the fucking gravel! It's like riding on marbles. Yeah carbacca i just missed that big bloody boulder! Did a final check on my bike...hmm fairingis smashed in many places, the front of the fairings is bent *luckily not the forks* witht the mirrors and stuff pretty unusable. I tried bending it back but to no avail. Electrics were doing some wierd shit on the way home too..poos. Indicators are gone and well im still pulling rocks and gravel and plants out of it. Me well i have a fucking sore leg but apart from that gear is okay and i'm okay. Sigh whats the chances aye i was being really careful. From my view i came around the corner saw bikes, braked and the next thing bam on the ground. Sigh well i'm gonna go try cool off. Thanks to all who helped ppick me up. Hope ehab is okay *he seemed it lol* and that you carbacca are sweet as too.

ital916
8th December 2007, 16:41
Oh and don't judge me as a testosterone fuelled fuckwit because i am not. I ride carefully and to my limits, just a bad run of luck, shit happens! I'm a careful rider which those of you who have ridden with me will know.

bomma
8th December 2007, 16:44
ehab binned??? man i hope all you dudes and dudettes are ok.....mac's right, too many guys go out on the road with a point to prove and its just not smart.....im back in nz 18th jan so if the RRRS course is after that you can count me in......ill need it after taking 2 bloody months off riding!!!!

i miss my bike :crybaby:

ital916
8th December 2007, 16:49
Oh how much do you guys reckon it'll take to get my bike fixed..stores are all closed till monday.

Macstar
8th December 2007, 16:50
Oh and don't judge me as a testosterone fuelled fuckwit because i am not. I ride carefully and to my limits, just a bad run of luck, shit happens! I'm a careful rider which those of you who have ridden with me will know.

No you're not (" testosterone...") - but you haven't had a good start to biking and I think you should take one of these courses too. $60 is the approx cost i.e. less than what it's going to cost for a replacement indicator from today...

ital916
8th December 2007, 16:53
Yeah count me in for that course macstar will definately be worth it. I'll look into it closer to the time..guess im stuck with the cage for the next few days. sigh

EJK
8th December 2007, 16:54
Oh and don't judge me as a testosterone fuelled fuckwit because i am not. I ride carefully and to my limits, just a bad run of luck, shit happens! I'm a careful rider which those of you who have ridden with me will know.

I'll ride with you anytime. I can't say anything in my current situation (since I wasn't at the place), but I know your good passion and will for motorcycles.

I really feel sorry for your accident dude...

Macstar
8th December 2007, 17:14
Oh how much do you guys reckon it'll take to get my bike fixed..stores are all closed till monday.

That nose cone looked pretty screwed with 3 or 4 cracks, side fairing, indicator. Bike shop would probably quote you $1000-1500, up to $2000 if you wanted to remove any traces of road rash i.e replacement mirror exhaust...

DIY $2-400 depending on whether you replace fairings or try and weld them.

erix
8th December 2007, 17:19
Sucks!!!!! Sucks!!!! Sucks!!!!
Glad noone is hurt.

twinkle
8th December 2007, 17:21
From my view i came around the corner saw bikes, braked and the next thing bam on the ground.

You went from the road onto the gravel while you were braking, locked up the front wheel and went down. I was watching you when you did it :shutup:
Braking on gravel is pretty easy to practise, and kinda fun :woohoo:

EJK
8th December 2007, 17:28
If you do it right that is Twinkle! lol

trump-lady
8th December 2007, 17:30
On these learner rides do they provide bikes? I wanna get some people into bikes but they dunno where to go and learn and Im not lending my bike!

ital916
8th December 2007, 17:33
Crap, i'm not a do it yourself kinda person when it comes to fairings and shit..i can weld but not plastic weld lol Hmm ill try not to think about it tonight...man my leg hurts.

erix
8th December 2007, 17:37
You went from the road onto the gravel while you were braking, locked up the front wheel and went down. I was watching you when you did it :shutup:
Braking on gravel is pretty easy to practise, and kinda fun :woohoo:

Riding on the gravel is still pretty scary for me... I always feel that Im gonna skip and lost control... does everyone feel the same way or just me? or because my soft suspension?

EJK
8th December 2007, 17:37
Take a rest dude.

Skin rash: I might be able to help you on this one. Just a bottle of Hydroperioxide and Fucidine + bandaid will sort it out lol

You might feel a sting!

Katman
8th December 2007, 17:55
Post #1

Well, we've never seen eye to eye before but I applaud you unreservedly for your thread.

DUCATI*HARD
8th December 2007, 17:57
and heaps a bio oil:lol:

Squiggles
8th December 2007, 18:10
Today me and hanne went for a nice cruise up sh16, across woodcocks, then down sh1. Pleasent, no rush, speed, or anything silly, that's been something thats started to eventuate on the rides we've held, worrying it is, especially when you throw learners in there.

I plan to book a RRRS course for the club for ~ the weekend after clubs day when uni goes back next year. Until then people have just got to realise that it is in no way cool to drop,knock,smash, bash, or crash their bikes, and calm the fook down :calm:

That said, i want to hold a learners ride for our club members next weekend or the weekend after, with of course, that wee touch i put in "fuck round and i'll tell you to fuck off" :hug:

PirateJafa
8th December 2007, 18:19
Riding on the gravel is still pretty scary for me... I always feel that Im gonna skip and lost control... does everyone feel the same way or just me? or because my soft suspension?
I must be strange - I enjoy riding on the gravel, and I have to keep kicking myself and reminding myself I'm not on a dirtbike.

Trick is to keep a bit of throttle on and avoid using your front brake at all, unless you're in a straight line. :)

klyong82
8th December 2007, 18:33
i miss my bike :crybaby:

Your bike is in good hands bro. I ride it as though it is mine...


Oh how much do you guys reckon it'll take to get my bike fixed..stores are all closed till monday.

As Macstar said about $1000 to $1500 but if you are not fussy just do what is needed and leave the rest as it is. You did well today bro treat it as an experience bro. If you need help to get stuff bent back then let us know.


Riding on the gravel is still pretty scary for me... I always feel that Im gonna skip and lost control... does everyone feel the same way or just me? or because my soft suspension?

My suspension is soft too but just ride at 30-40km/h you should not lose the rear even though it feels like that.


Today me and hanne went for a nice cruise up sh16, across woodcocks, then down sh1. Pleasent, no rush, speed, or anything silly, that's been something thats started to eventuate on the rides we've held, worrying it is, especially when you throw learners in there.

I plan to book a RRRS course for the club for ~ the weekend after clubs day when uni goes back next year. Until then people have just got to realise that it is in no way cool to drop,knock,smash, bash, or crash their bikes, and calm the fook down :calm:

That said, i want to hold a learners ride for our club members next weekend or the weekend after, with of course, that wee touch i put in "fuck round and i'll tell you to fuck off" :hug:

I was waiting for you two to turn up but I guess you two had other plans. Agreed Stevo we need those learner rides again.

Overall the ride was great so thanks everyone for attending and to the 3 people who binned let it be an experience to take the blind spots, bends more cautionsly and to be more observant when riding.

Breakaway and me were having fun at the twisties and we waited in Kawakawa Bay for 20 mins before we found out that the bins happened. I had several scary moments but managed to keep it under control. You should also see Twinkle beating me in the bends....:blink:

Thanks to the lady on the GSXR1000 who told us Hong binned. We went back looking for Hong not knowing exactly where were you but was glad to see you riding back.

Saw alot of Suzuki riders on their brand new spanking GSXR.

The Stranger
8th December 2007, 18:33
On these learner rides do they provide bikes? I wanna get some people into bikes but they dunno where to go and learn and Im not lending my bike!

Passrite used to have learner bikes that they would hire to do their courses, not sure if they still do.
Several of the places where you go to do your basic handling skills course will lend you a bike to do the basic handling on, and also offer at least some instruction.
RRRS don't officially, however if I can usually arrange one for RRRS with a little warning.
I also have one here which I don't mind loaning out, but would rather spend a few hours with the person first if they are a total noob. If you are interested in loaning my bike please PM me.

The Stranger
8th December 2007, 18:39
Join us on Wednesday. The Wednesday night ride :yes:


Please not the disclaimer on the first AWNR ride post.

"Just a note here folks
We are a bunch of experienced riders who are happy to pass on our riding experience in an informal way We are not claiming to be a qualified training organisation.
It will NEVER replace training from Qualified instructors like the Ride Safe course or the 1 on 1 training people like TRICIA1000 are able to give you --- Frosty "
substitute for a properly structured

Sanx
8th December 2007, 19:38
Myself and the guy riding behind me both saw these accidents from a different angle. The corner in question is the one immediately before the quarry entrance, heading towards Kaiaua. It's a deceptive corner and the two guys who binned are not the first to be caught out by it.
The guy riding the blue Suzuki twofiddy came into the corner too hot, grabbed a handful of brake, washed out and somersaulted through the undergrowth.
As for the guy on the RG150 - neither myself nor my friend could understand what caused it. The accident couldn't have been at anything more than 40kph and looked like it was just a case of running straight thru a corner, onto the gravel, with predicatable results. I'd suggest an RRRS course certainly, but also the mentor evenings would be an idea. Certainly in the case of the RG150, the bike would have gone around the corner without the slightest problem. IMO, the twofiddy should have done too. However, there's a mental block to overcome in simply trusting your tyres and tipping the bike over a bit further to get round a corner.

ital916
8th December 2007, 19:53
Yeah I get it, it's my fault that i crashed, i have learnt my mistake no excuses just a rookie mistake. Sigh well night all, i've been getting heaps of peoiple telling me to take courses and shit well im not a crap rider just a new one, think i'll take a break from posting and try bend my bike back into shape lol thanks again to all who helped. Remember everyone was a noob once.

D

MSTRS
8th December 2007, 19:54
Post #1

Well, we've never seen eye to eye before but I applaud you unreservedly for your thread.

Good on ya! So much for your campaign.....advice is what was asked for, or do you only give it when it is not asked for?

aewilliam
8th December 2007, 20:05
Dudes...shyte to read about the binnages.
Dont stop riding aye - i need someone more nana than myself (if and when) out there on the AUMC rides! :)
Glad not too physically battered, just the self-confience aye. Hope you'll be up and sweet in no time.
Same for you other two...Was Ehab one of them? He has abit of experience bouncing back from these things aye :)
Carbacca taking a break in "meantime " from two-wheeling in general or just the twisties?

Squiggles
8th December 2007, 20:15
Yeah I get it, it's my fault that i crashed....

Get insurance to write it off, not worth trying to find the bits (from my quick search of the net) but i'll come take a looksee anyway if ya flick me a pm :)

Hanne
8th December 2007, 20:28
I was waiting for you two to turn up but I guess you two had other plans.


Lol yes... it may have also had something to do with the fact that I didn't even wake up until 10.30, and by the time the bikes were checked over, the TL rego'd and assorted gear found it was waaaaaay too late to even see you guys coming back, even if we had really strong binoculars.

I would also like to see some more learner rides, just slow and gentle and taking the time to think about corners, what went well/ not so well. I have been on several of the larger rides but still think there is far more chance to learn things in the smaller groups, seems a bit safer to start with too. So thanks Stephen, for slowing sown for me today too.

Jantar
8th December 2007, 20:39
yeah i was wondering about that too.....

hit that M*****F****** big rock that slid of the cliff and sat smack bang in the middle of the road and lowsided at about 70kph.... want to give it some though wtf i did wrong, as you all probably know i am a bit of a nana rider anyways so i dunno what went wrong



...As for the guy on the RG150 - neither myself nor my friend could understand what caused it. The accident couldn't have been at anything more than 40kph and looked like it was just a case of running straight thru a corner, onto the gravel, with predicatable results.....

Both these accidents sound like classic "Target Fixation". ie. What you look at is what you will hit, where you look is where you will go. Talk to an experienced rider in your area, like Frosty, and you'll learn heaps.

Sue VFR
8th December 2007, 20:58
Hi guys

Another really good place to learn riding skills without gravel, drains, trees, fences, cars, poles etc is at track days. You can go in the slow group and practice the lines in and out of corners. It really does translate to better riding on the open road.


www.motott.co.nz

Sanx
8th December 2007, 21:18
Yeah I get it, it's my fault that i crashed, i have learnt my mistake no excuses just a rookie mistake. Sigh well night all, i've been getting heaps of peoiple telling me to take courses and shit well im not a crap rider just a new one, think i'll take a break from posting and try bend my bike back into shape lol thanks again to all who helped. Remember everyone was a noob once.

I think you mis-understood me. I wasn't trying to say you're a crap rider or anything like that. I was trying to say what you did on that corner was as a result of not trusting your tyres, yourself or the bike to get you round. Basically, you tried to pull out of the manouver but didn't have enough room to straighten up and brake hard. Take my comments as constructive criticism not a dig, 'kay?


Another really good place to learn riding skills without gravel, drains, trees, fences, cars, poles etc is at track days. You can go in the slow group and practice the lines in and out of corners. It really does translate to better riding on the open road.

Abso-f'ing-lutely. Doing track days has improved my riding immeasurably.

breakaway
8th December 2007, 21:20
Crap, i'm not a do it yourself kinda person when it comes to fairings and shit..i can weld but not plastic weld lol Hmm ill try not to think about it tonight...man my leg hurts.

If you think it hurts now wait till tomorrow. I was 400% more sore the next day after my little mishap. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=55252) I couldn't even sit down without crying from pain :p

I saw that fkn huge rock in the middle of the road, heaps in advance, enough to avoid it (at legal speeds I might add), so I presumed those behind me would be alright. At this time, it was just Kim behind me. I knew something was up when we had to wait that long at the turn off :(

Also Drider, ain't nothing wrong with your bike. Fairings have some mild scratches on them. Don't write it off or anything. Hell, I'd clean it up and leave it just as is. Put in a new indicator, and if it's still doing funky shit then post back and someone will sort you out. Those RG150s are real simple bikes. Some wire probably got shaken out of place from the impact. An easy fix.

ital916
8th December 2007, 21:29
Hey sanx, sorry dude i din't mean to be snappy and i'm absorbing as much info as i can, just kicking myself at the moment aye. Thanks for the advice i will practise to be better. :D Hey breakaway yeah that rock was big.

EJK
8th December 2007, 21:59
I really want to give Drider another bling but I cant, cause I already gave him one yesturday.

He admits, he tells the truth and he is learning! Now thats the attitude! :yes:

Bling for ya eventho I can't give you one lol

erix
8th December 2007, 21:59
I must be strange - I enjoy riding on the gravel, and I have to keep kicking myself and reminding myself I'm not on a dirtbike.
Trick is to keep a bit of throttle on and avoid using your front brake at all, unless you're in a straight line. :)

hmm... it seems I should let go the fear and try to trust my bike... of course more practice as well...



My suspension is soft too but just ride at 30-40km/h you should not lose the rear even though it feels like that.

You should also see Twinkle beating me in the bends....:blink:


Your fireblade vs my VTR suspension??? You should try my bike next time to feel the difference....:sweatdrop

Yeah, Twinkle is like 10cm behind me when he followed me in the corners, and I feel Im already trying my best. I have to say skills and experience do count regardless what bike you are on.:scooter: And by following his line in the corners is very comfortable...follow and learn...;)


Myself and the guy riding behind me both saw these accidents from a different angle. The corner in question is the one immediately before the quarry entrance, heading towards Kaiaua. It's a deceptive corner and the two guys who binned are not the first to be caught out by it.

Thats true! I found a Vcan helmet piece on the scene and it doesn't belong to neither ehab nor Drider87...hmm...

EJK
8th December 2007, 22:04
Yeah, Twinkle is like 10cm behind me when he followed me in the corners, and I feel Im already trying my best. I have to say skills and experience do count regardless what bike you are on.:scooter: And by following his line in the corners is very comfortable...follow and learn...;)


JAMES!!!! Just tell them the NOS can under your seat! I know your secret now!! :lol: (From when he gave me a ride to pick up the pizzas)

Macstar
8th December 2007, 22:08
Myself and the guy riding behind me both saw these accidents from a different angle. .

Thanks for stopping and helping out. Whilst one can argue all accidents shouldn't have happened, these ones in particular were avoidable and I'm sure if the riders involved spend a few hours at a course and practice their cornering / braking, the same sort of thing won't happen again.


Post #1

Well, we've never seen eye to eye before but I applaud you unreservedly for your thread.

Yeah I had to laugh a little after my recent arguing with you Katman, but like you, I've never wanted to see riders go down, especially in the numbers that I did today. Getting the basics right is imperative for any biker.


Hi guys

Another really good place to learn riding skills without gravel, drains, trees, fences, cars, poles etc is at track days. You can go in the slow group and practice the lines in and out of corners. It really does translate to better riding on the open road.


www.motott.co.nz

Thank you for your suggestion Sue, please keep the options coming people.


Fairings have some mild scratches on them. Don't write it off or anything. Hell, I'd clean it up and leave it just as is. Put in a new indicator, and if it's still doing funky shit then post back and someone will sort you out. Those RG150s are real simple bikes. Some wire probably got shaken out of place from the impact. An easy fix.

Yeah, like I said, if you take it to a bike shop they're going to quote you for genuine parts and may even want to replace some fairings, hence $1000-1500. If you live with the scratched fairings and weld up the cracks then a few hundee will probably cover it. The funky electrical stuff could possibly be the naked indicator wires shorting out after the indicator was ripped off? make sure the negative and positive aren't touching.

Look, thank you people for your comments and for keeping this constructive. A plan is in motion and Squiggles had got the maturity and responsibility to organise these things further (with my help if he needs it):

*Monday & Wed night trainings
*Newbie weekend ride
*RRRS in Jan
*Possibly a track day or something similar.

Thanks.

Ixion
8th December 2007, 22:14
Bit of a radical notion t' be sure, but, just coming from left field here, maybe try slowing down?

erik
8th December 2007, 22:15
Go to your local library and get "Proficient Motorcycling" by David L. Hough and read.
It's got good diagrams and is really well written. Even if you only read the stuff on cornering and practicing cornering, you'll be better off. It covers a lot of the same theoretical stuff as they do in the RRRS course (or did when I went there a couple years ago).

klyong82
8th December 2007, 22:33
Your fireblade vs my VTR suspension??? You should try my bike next time to feel the difference....:sweatdrop

Yeah, Twinkle is like 10cm behind me when he followed me in the corners, and I feel Im already trying my best. I have to say skills and experience do count regardless what bike you are on.:scooter: And by following his line in the corners is very comfortable...follow and learn...;)...


Well my OEM setup for the fireblade was too stiff on the front and too soft on the back so I tweaked it doing all the sag measurement etc. It feels better now.

I'll have a look at your bike next time round. Might just need to tweak the preload and compression a little. Generally 250's are more of a commutering bike so the suspension would be softer.

Twinkle? He is an experience rider. He can manuever his GN well thru corners. As I said he overtook me today on the twisty hills. I got a lot to learn about cornering. In due course you will learn to trust yourself and the VTR better e.g leaning further on bends etc.

Yoou'll get there dont worry and start saving for a Fireblade.........speaking about a Fireblade....I saw SANX's Fireblade today it was :drool: hubba babba!! I'll have to wait a while before I can own one unless anyone interested in a ZX7R 2001 in Ninja green :lol: (Nish is gonna kill me).

EJK
8th December 2007, 22:35
......a while before I can own one unless anyone interested in a ZX7R 2001 in Ninja green :lol: (Nish is gonna kill me).

You are already dead anyways :lol:

*cough-orange-cough-mirrors*!!

Macstar
8th December 2007, 22:38
Bit of a radical notion t' be sure, but, just coming from left field here, maybe try slowing down?

Speed wasn't a factor in the first two bins today that I witnessed, both riders were traveling at respectable speeds (even for learners). But yes, slowing down does help:niceone:

Toaster
8th December 2007, 22:44
Bit of a radical notion t' be sure, but, just coming from left field here, maybe try slowing down?


Speed wasn't a factor in the first two bins today that I witnessed, both riders were traveling at respectable speeds (even for learners). But yes, slowing down does help:niceone:

You crazy radical's you!

Agreed.... going a tad slower certainly hurts a lot less when you hit something hard.

twinkle
8th December 2007, 22:50
Both these accidents sound like classic "Target Fixation". ie. What you look at is what you will hit, where you look is where you will go. Talk to an experienced rider in your area, like Frosty, and you'll learn heaps.
The RG150 was just pulling off to the side of the road i think, just braked a wee bit hard when he was on the gravel, easy done.

twinkle
8th December 2007, 22:54
Yeah, Twinkle is like 10cm behind me when he followed me in the corners, and I feel Im already trying my best.
oh errr :o bad habit i'm trying to fix, i shouldn't be so close behind you aye, sorry.

Squiggles
9th December 2007, 00:09
Hi guys

Another really good place to learn riding skills without gravel, drains, trees, fences, cars, poles etc is at track days. You can go in the slow group and practice the lines in and out of corners. It really does translate to better riding on the open road.


www.motott.co.nz

Thanks for putting foward the thought, at the moment i dont think this is what we are looking for. Perhaps for those with more experience and a need to satisfy a thirst for some speed. But taking away the targets of target fixation wont fix the problem when they're around :doh:

btw all, websites nearly done :eek:

bikerboy011
9th December 2007, 00:46
far out thats sucks!
good to hear u guys are alright :)

motorbyclist
9th December 2007, 02:43
Macstar, you're dead right - pun intended
the difference between your campaign and katman's, for those still unsure, is it doesn't sound like a rant and instead has genuine concern and some evidence to back it up, with a solution that will help.


i lost count of the bins in this thread.... never thought carbacca would drop it, had thought Drider was past that stage by now, i definitely never expected EJ's crash and who were those two riders who crashed recently?
and did Ehab bin too? ffs man! how long have you been riding now? plus i've seen you riding with passengers atleast 3 times now (and took the passenger for you on one of those occasions)

plus stephen's surprise bin on the TL, my recent fuckup (which was inevitable, but not in the way it happened), breakaway's nasty crash and chris's/Ehab's/Drider's usual stories....

i'll also count dan's miracle save which should have been a bin into a ditch at 100kph had the road not bent around to catch him - good on him keeping it upright in gravel on a slope with both wheels wandering for that long though - was scary just watching

seems everyone except hanne, macstar, kim, nish and a few others are the only club riders to keep their bikes upright this year, but i suspect macstar is next in line for a bin on the motard

atleast ewen, david, ross and kyle have been taken out by other drivers (and chris this latest time too)


my point? we really have alot of crashes. sure we have alot of learners and ride a helluva lot, but some of us seem accident prone.
i would go into detail, but in short: the more experienced, often dangerous riders need to slow down a bit (especially me), and help the newbie riders who really are crashing too often - specifically Drider, Ehab and any others that ask for help. now i know we have learner rides, but from what i've seen they're just a leisurely cruise without much more than friendly tips at the gas station; maybe we should focus more on imparting skills cause clearly just telling them on a forum isn't working too well


Riding on the gravel is still pretty scary for me... I always feel that Im gonna skip and lost control... does everyone feel the same way or just me? or because my soft suspension?

no you're not alone.
for me, sportbike + gravel = extreme caution

and stones + radiator or paint = trouble or stone chips



As for the guy on the RG150 - neither myself nor my friend could understand what caused it.

Yeah I get it, it's my fault that i crashed, i have learnt my mistake no excuses just a rookie mistake.

mate, sounds like what you did last time i rode with you.

how many bins is that now? no offence meant by it but you seem to be having alot of them even for a learner... from what i can discern by this thread and what i've seen of your riding is you have a few problems typical of learners.
1: look (and point your head) around the corner. the bike will go where you are looking.
2: when you see gravel, rocks, stationary cars, ehab's bike etc, do not stare at them. keep looking around the corner or look at your "escape route". the bike will go where you are looking.
3: you're new and yet to find the limits of your bike, but i'm beginning to think (lie; i've always thought this) the RG isn't the best choice in bike.
4: don't panic

Now we've been over this a few times, so maybe we should just get the bike running again get you some proper training, or atleast a few sessions with stephen...

actually, i'd be happy to give you some dirt bike practice and teach you some basic motorcycle control/recovery and it won't matter if you crash, covering problems 2 & 4, then we can move onto the road and manage cornering with appropriate lines and make looking around corners a force of habit to help with problems 1 & 3.

pm me if you're free this week

EJK
9th December 2007, 08:27
Macstar, you're dead right - pun intended
the difference between your campaign and katman's, for those still unsure, is it doesn't sound like a rant and instead has genuine concern and some evidence to back it up, with a solution that.........

Man, this gotta be the best post from "Motorbclist" on KB history. I agree 100%! Just wanna give you another bling :niceone: but can't.... lol


............and help the newbie riders who really are crashing too often - specifically Drider, Ehab and any others that ask for help. now i know we have................
:pinch:

ital916
9th December 2007, 09:17
Hey motorb, I'm learning still and i agree it was a bit of target fixation but i was almost stationary...the front wheel locked in the gravel. Like i said this was an unlucky bin but i've learnt that on gravel you can't brake like you would normally, it's the first time i came accross gravel. Lesson learnt! First two bins were due to the rear that's all. Now i have to concentrate on fixing my bike hopping in the saddle and getting back on the road. I will learn from my mistakes and absorb all the advice and info given by you guys, trust me the bruise on my leg is a stark reminder of the perils of motorcycling and if anything has made me more careful than i already was. At the moment i am more worried bout my baby..so broken lol but trust me..calling me accident prone is not the best solution lol i ride with all gear all the time and never take any stupid risks! If you want i'll happily ride with anyone who wishes to impart riding advice..once my baby is back on the road.

boomer
9th December 2007, 09:37
Bwahahhahaa.. no binners.. no winners.

Squiggles
9th December 2007, 10:17
and did Ehab bin too? ffs man! how long have you been riding now? plus i've seen you riding with passengers atleast 3 times now (and took the passenger for you on one of those occasions)

[

seems everyone except hanne, macstar, kim, nish and a few others are the only club riders to keep their bikes upright this year, but i suspect macstar is next in line for a bin on the motard

Hanne keeps dropping bikes while stationary ffs :lol:



my point? we really have alot of crashes. sure we have alot of learners and ride a helluva lot, but some of us seem accident prone.
i would go into detail, but in short: the more experienced, often dangerous riders need to slow down a bit (especially me), and help the newbie riders who really are crashing too often - specifically Drider, Ehab and any others that ask for help. now i know we have learner rides, but from what i've seen they're just a leisurely cruise without much more than friendly tips at the gas station; maybe we should focus more on imparting skills cause clearly just telling them on a forum isn't working too well

Perhaps we hold another meeting to discuss instead of this forum, i have a few thoughts and a garage





mate, sounds like what you did last time i rode with you.

how many bins is that now? no offence meant by it but you seem to be having alot of them even for a learner... from what i can discern by this thread and what i've seen of your riding is you have a few problems typical of learners.......
.....
3: you're new and yet to find the limits of your bike, but i'm beginning to think (lie; i've always thought this) the RG isn't the best choice in bike.


I rode 70kph the whole time i was on my learners, didnt push anything and just learnt how the bike handled over that time, then after that started to go out on the open road, no crashes and no "moments"... Perhaps the speed at which you're throwing yourself into this is the issue, a couple of tanks of gas worth isnt really enough to gain a full understanding of the bike :pinch: RG is a fine bike to begin with, but the moment you dont respect the smoker it bites you. :doh:

Macstar
9th December 2007, 11:15
i suspect macstar is next in line for a bin on the motard

Sheez man, that's a head trip! You could be right though, it's funny how a different bike can bring out a different rider in you... :crazy:

I want to reserve the motard for track days and get my kicks there. The ironic thing about that is, I could never successfully explain/convince my girlfriend, friends and family that riding on a track is safer than ripping around on the roads (tried before). To them (non-motorcyclists), riding on a track is a guaranteed bin / injury. Next year when I have a job and a real income I'll be able to afford $100-150 track day fees regularly, plus all the other associated costs.

But yeah: In my defence, coming up three years of riding and no bins, or tickets/demerit points. I've personally witnessed 13 crashes now on the road however and seen 4 at the tracks.

Squiggles is the man though, for a young guy he's got a wise head on his shoulders and has nothing to prove.

skidMark
9th December 2007, 11:50
RRRS course!


That course is rubbish.what they need is skill and common sense.

skill comes with time, and common sense well thats up to them, with me i take what some would say huge risks , in the speed i ride at on the open road etc. i have calmed down the overtaking now though.

and yes i did do alot of dumb shit.

what other riders need to do is realise the same thing, that it will get them killed.

i am very lucky to be alive, i actually can't explain how i still am.

i have come off a bike 10 times.

some quite severly

some not my fault, but most were.

in the end though it comes down to them, i learnt my overtaking lesson the hard way... been smacked into by a car driver who is pissed off at you and having your footpeg torn right from under your foot, and having a tankslapper and coming bloodey close to coming off, is a real big wake up moment.

people just need to ride within thier skill level....fine on the open road, but round town you have to watch out for other vehicles. that doesnt come down to speed neccessarily....but to using common sense.

ie...going down the road somebody wants to pull out of a side street...

make sure you are in a gear to accelerate out of the way if they do it late, and be prepared to swerve.

and have your hand and foot covering the brakes, i mean any car...not one pulling out already it's about being prepared in 2 1/2 years of riding i have had minimum 1000 cars do this to me.

why?

because bikes are not seen.

i have my headlight on high beam. all day.

they still do not see you most of the time....


and when they do they are already moving...and either stonk the brakes...and give a sorry wave...or pull out right infront of you "i can beat the bike"

and don't go well they should see me blah fuckingblah, think of it this way, if theres a gap in traffic that youd go hey i can make that with my bike...and it's a car coming...you go for it....exact same size gap....but a big fuck off MACK truck is coming....theres no way in hell you will try it, your mind is designed to say oi, don't do that it's big!

reaction to a car drive is...small object, that gaps easy.

so they go for it, when in reality the gap is not big enough.

car drivers, for the most part, are commuters, they don't know how to handle thier vehicle.

not stirring...it's a fact.

but in the end it comes down to practise. i see so many riders who to be honest, cannot ride for shit, all over the road etc.

and it's just an accident waiting to happen

RRRS is rubbish, you can't tach skill in a day, i think the monday and wednesday night get togethers as macster suggested would be the better option.

go do that.

or you are dead.

when you were little and mummy said you can't get a motorcycle

she had the interests of her lil boy/girl at heart.

because motorcycles are dangerous, they are death traps,they do kill alot of people. they are a very very unsafe vehicle.

but i take that risk everytime i put that helmet on.

why?

because i'm free.

if you ride or not. is up to you. learn to handle the machine , don't get to cocky and ull be fine.

what you all take from this post is up to you, i think i have said all i need to say.

SM

MSTRS
9th December 2007, 12:02
SM....You've still got a ways to go with regards to your attitude. RRRS teaches valuable skills...becoming proficient in their application takes ongoing practice. Nobody can become 'good' if they don't understand the dynamics of bike handling in the first place.
One thing you are right about tho...it is a small miracle that you are here to regale us with your misadventures

yungatart
9th December 2007, 12:13
That course is rubbish.

RRRS is rubbish, you can't tach skill in a day,

what you all take from this post is up to you, i think i have said all i need to say.

SM

Your opinion is noted.
Just as a matter of interest, have you done the RRRS course?

skidMark
9th December 2007, 12:27
Your opinion is noted.
Just as a matter of interest, have you done the RRRS course?


I think i would gain more experiance using the money for petrol than wasting is on RRRS

i know people who have done it, it just made them ride scared, and actually slower.

like all things all you need is practise, and common sense.

the course is bullshit.

Squiggles
9th December 2007, 12:35
The dynamics taught in the course (avoiding target fixation, choosing lines, how the bike can handle) are what we will be looking to learn. It may not make you a better rider instantly, but if you think about what has been said, and can relate that to experiences, you will learn far better than repeatedly loosing it and not understanding why.


If everyone else can just bottle up any rage @ Skiddy's post or take it to another thread that'd be good, i'd like to keep this more constructive than a bashing :)

skidMark
9th December 2007, 12:35
SM....You've still got a ways to go with regards to your attitude. RRRS teaches valuable skills...becoming proficient in their application takes ongoing practice. Nobody can become 'good' if they don't understand the dynamics of bike handling in the first place.
One thing you are right about tho...it is a small miracle that you are here to regale us with your misadventures

the dynamics of bike handling?

it's not hard....

twist the throttle...countersteer the bars...omfg it corners.

everything RRRS teaches is written on kiwibiker anyway, it's very basic shit andi consider it a large waste of money.

countersteering is even talked about in the motorcycle road code.

i have taught my riding to myself, with reading online on this site, and tip picked up here and there,

the last thing i would ever want when something goes wrong, is thinking about what the instructor said, i ride with instinct, the point at which you go from total newbie, to gaining some sort of skill whatsoever is when you doing have to think about what you are doing, you don't gooo ooo well now ive been taught to turn the bar, ok now i'm at apex so thorttle out...blah blah....

i look at the road...my mind knows what to do.

i look at the corner.....i automatically control it to do it i don't have to think about how i'm going to control the bike, the bike controls to me are like breathing.

i had alot of trouble at the last taupo trackday because i was thinking about when to downshift and all that bullshit.

made me ride like shit.

if something goes wrong ie...shit gravel...i react accordingly, alot of newbies are too soon to freeze up....when i used to freeze up is when i crashed.

they panic too easily because they lack the confidence and don't know what to do...

practise solves that, and balls.

both things, a 1 day course cannot give you, you cannot be taught planted groundwork, teach yourself.

yungatart
9th December 2007, 12:36
Its pretty broad minded of you to air your views on a course that you have never taken.
I, for one, have done it, and my experiences of it are in direct opposition to your acquaintances experiences.
It taught me how to handle my bike in a controlled environment, in a way that I was far to scared to attempt on the road. I gained heaps of confidence and skills, which I practice regularly on the road.
It has made me a far safer, better, more in control and confident rider and I would recommend it to anyone, except for you...your skill levels and attitude are so good, you don't need anything like that.

skidMark
9th December 2007, 12:39
except for you...your skill levels and attitude are so good, you don't need anything like that.

tell me something i don't know love.:devil2:

MSTRS
9th December 2007, 12:42
SM, you are a god. For the rest of us mere mortals, an understanding of the "why", makes us a better rider.
You say that you picked up a few tips from here...interesting is the fact how many serious attempts to instruct you were pooh-poohed by yourself, all while you were continuing to get yourself in trouble on the roads.
RRRS would have saved you money.

MSTRS
9th December 2007, 12:48
SM, you are a god. For the rest of us mere mortals, an understanding of the "why", makes us a better rider.
You say that you picked up a few tips from here...interesting is the fact how many serious attempts to instruct you were pooh-poohed by yourself, all while you were continuing to get yourself in trouble on the roads.
RRRS would have saved you money.

Actually, no, belay that. You wouldn't have paid attention to the instructors either.
+1 to DMNTD

Lteejay
9th December 2007, 13:10
You went from the road onto the gravel while you were braking, locked up the front wheel and went down. I was watching you when you did it :shutup:
Braking on gravel is pretty easy to practise, and kinda fun :woohoo:


Riding on the gravel is still pretty scary for me... I always feel that Im gonna skip and lost control... does everyone feel the same way or just me? or because my soft suspension?

Gravel scares the shit out of me - had a couple of moments when the back wheel has slid about (well that is what it feels like), both in different types of situations. Would really like to learn a few skills to feel more confident when I hit road works and gravel.

crashe
9th December 2007, 13:30
I think i would gain more experiance using the money for petrol than wasting is on RRRS

i know people who have done it, it just made them ride scared, and actually slower.

like all things all you need is practise, and common sense.

the course is bullshit.

Mark - I would like to disagree with you on this.

I did the RRRS course one month after getting my bike years ago.
One week later that course saved my life.......
Why............

Because a twat hit me from the side on, right on the rear wheel and damaged my rear shock. From what I learnt at that course, I managed to keep the bike upright throu out that accident...
When I rode the bike to Mt Eden with one buckled up bent shock, the boys were surprised that I didnt crash when they saw the shock. Because with the hit I took on the bike that day, I should have gone down.

It is what I learnt from that course when Finn and Peggy did the course, I learnt heaps.

I still have that rear shock as a reminder (sitting on a shelf in the garage).

Mark do the course, you will be amazed at what you can learn.... Yes even in one day. Even riders who have been riding for 20 or 30 years go and do it....... from it they realise that they have had some bad habits out there on the road.....

I still get out there and practice the stuff that Peggy and Finn taught me all those years ago.....

motorbyclist
9th December 2007, 14:44
calling me accident prone is not the best solution lol

yeah sorry about that, i was trying to be constructive but didn't choose my words too well. you're still learning and it's natural to crash a bit, but i can't help but feel some of the accidents were very avoidable - including my one.

keep riding mate - you'll get there with time. my offer still stands if you're keen though - alot of my skill actually comes from offroad bikes where i've learnt to control things that are otherwise going to crash (and alot of my bad habits probably come from there too)



Hanne keeps dropping bikes while stationary ffs :lol:

lol, well those things just happen. i know back on my learners my shoelaces got caught and caused two drops outside my gate. ehab did the same the other day in a carpark.



Perhaps we hold another meeting to discuss instead of this forum, i have a few thoughts and a garage

yeah i was thinking the same thing - plus i want to discuss the club organisation for next year with signing new members and whatnot




I rode 70kph the whole time i was on my learners, didnt push anything and just learnt how the bike handled over that time, then after that started to go out on the open road, no crashes and no "moments"... Perhaps the speed at which you're throwing yourself into this is the issue, a couple of tanks of gas worth isnt really enough to gain a full understanding of the bike :pinch: RG is a fine bike to begin with, but the moment you dont respect the smoker it bites you. :doh:

yeah, i'm a bit anti-2smoke, but for absolute novices i still maintain that a bike that can bite like that isn't the best. mind you, any bike can bite if you're not careful - i reckon if had i got a r6/cbr600 rather than the vfr i'd be crippled by now


Sheez man, that's a head trip! You could be right though, it's funny how a different bike can bring out a different rider in you... :crazy:

But yeah: In my defence, coming up three years of riding and no bins, or tickets/demerit points.

lets try to keep it that way

kinda ironic that the original poster is likely the next to crash isn't it?

plus i'm posting all of this yet it's a miracle i havn't crashed due to hooning yet (alot is skill/experience/bike, but alot is luck too)



I still have that rear shock as a reminder.


haha, i keep broken bike bits as reminders/souveniers - got a whole shelf of dirt bike parts, plus a few piles in corners and under benches. wheels, levers, engine covers, mufflers, plastics - you name it

Macstar
9th December 2007, 14:51
:Offtopic:SM and others pls take your squabbles elsewhere, not wanted on this thread as kindly asked several times now.

motorbyclist
9th December 2007, 14:54
oh and ehab; your riding isn't bad as such, but your bike is really getting munted lol

did you fall on the same side again or tried to balance out both sides?

klingon
9th December 2007, 15:09
Just spoke to RRRS, next course is mid Jan. They suggested two bike instructors that may be able to run a special group course for us in the mean time.

Anyone know how I can get in contact with these people:

Lee Hurley & John Wright.

Lee Hurley (Aka Lee Rusty of Rusty Nuts) 021 639 7433


On these learner rides do they provide bikes? I wanna get some people into bikes but they dunno where to go and learn and Im not lending my bike!

Lee has a few bikes he can lend to beginners. He will teach absolute beginners who have never been on a bike before, and also people who have more experience and want to improve their skills. He's also very patient :niceone:

skidMark
9th December 2007, 16:40
Too much I could say so I'll keep it brief and semi-constructive.

All the money you've spent to date hasn't helped...enough.
Invest the money...ride slower and cautiously which in turn will make you quicker.
You appear to be lacking common sense at certain times...obviously the course would help you and help us to relax having you around us.

The course is not BS...and you DO need it,as do many.
Feel free to challenge my comments but ffs...think before you type. :yes:

i don't need to do it...i already know all the crap they teach....

i'm quick enough...

getting too cocky so am very tempted to give up road riding....

140 through 55's i'm feeling too comfortable..... which is never good.

i just wanna go faster.

and yeah...one day i will come round a 55 knee down at 140...spot gravel...and go....FUCK

i don't wanna give up road riding. but i don't think i have much choice, for my own safety, i dunno what to do.

motorbyclist
9th December 2007, 16:43
i don't wanna give up road riding. but i don't think i have much choice, for my own safety, i dunno what to do.

fuck just slow down. if you're getting from a to b just do it legally - everyone else manages it

and what the hell is the point, really, in doing 140 kph on a straight. maybe once or twice for the experience, but after that there's not skill involved! just pick some nice, tight, windy roads so you're forced to keep the speeds legal

maybe get a different bike - i find riding the fxr helps me keep my licence, and is still fun in the corners

and you could always just stick to trackdays - your bike is buggered enough to become a track bike dont you think?

ital916
9th December 2007, 16:44
Hey all, squiggles came round today and checked out the bike..a big thanks mate i owe you a beer. She seems not too bad. Needs a bit of plastic welding up the front where the fairing took the impact but apart from that i will have to live with the scratches. Everytime i ride they will be a reminder of what can happen, i think i'm gonna stick to the city and work on getting my cornering confidence up and learning to trust the bike. I want to see how she handles and get the basics right. I realise by the time i get my full that she'll probably have plenty more scratches but again i want to get the basics right. I'll def look at takgin the RRRS course and motorb if your offer still stands, a day of learning a bit of off road skill would be good...maybe some gravel riding *if other noobs are keen* to learn how to control the bike if that evil crap is come across might be good. I'm happy to ride with everyone who wants to do learner rides and just pm me if you guys need people for learner nights. On the plus im most likely not goona try bend the fairing back into shape at the front you can't really tell it's bent and i get a better view out of my mirror now lol :D.

Taking it real easy

D

Ragingrob
9th December 2007, 17:44
Almost binned it today! I have learnt, do not stop for orange lights in the wet!!! Pushed the rear a bit too hard and fish tailed for about 5 metres coming up to market rd and great south road intersection. Relaxed (as much as I could), released rear brake, continued with front brake keeping bike as straight as possible, finally coming to a stop at the lights.

:bash: Gotta be careful in wet! I shouldn't have accelerated up to a stale green light so much and then stopped for an orange with not enough distance for a wet road. :) Although, I am proud of myself for being able to save the bail considering I've had no bin experience. :2thumbsup And I plan to keep it that way!

ital916
9th December 2007, 18:08
Was that on your way to stephens...woulda been sad if your were late cos you binned. Lesson learnt aye lol

Ragingrob
9th December 2007, 18:14
Haha it was like 500m from his house on the way! Yeah I reckon, screw the rear brake! :P

R6_kid
9th December 2007, 19:05
The reason i didnt start up a AU SMC when i was there was the fear that I would end up going on rides less experienced than myself, and that would lead to a situation like you are in now.

When you go on rides you need to make sure before hand that people can ride confidently on the open road. And also that they ride with people that are at a similar pace to them, and to make sure that they are under no pressure what so ever to try and 'perform'.

As much as the monday night 'learn to ride' may or may not work, i don't think it is the best way to learn. The best way is to have information fed to you in a structured way that allows you to take the information on board, fully explained, and then put it into practice on the bike. This is where RRRS comes into it's own.

With extra skill people will learn to ride better, unfortunately it is most likely that they feel they now have the ability to ride faster (which they probably do). The problem is that the increase in ability to handle a bike at speed is not matched by the ability to stop or perform an evasive emergency maneuver at that speed and they end up getting themselves into trouble.

I now choose to ride only with people I know, and at most with one or two people that I don't. I have the balls to tell someone they are riding like a fuckwit - as much as am able to accept the criticism and pull my head in.

Matt Bleck
9th December 2007, 19:46
It's simple....... most bins wins..... or is that win or bin.....

HTFU
9th December 2007, 21:45
Hey Macstar good thread.

The Course thing won't help the likes of people like Skidmark. When they have a need for speed it just takes time and stuff ups to slow them down. (the guy sounds like a immature cock so I take his comments with a grain of salt)

As for the rest of you guys binning it and claiming to be going slow. Get a push bike and compliment your motorcycling skills with it. Skinny tyres for one make your reactions a lot better and teach good cornering and braking skills. Funny watching my daughter last week in Rotorua work out pulling the front brake whist cornering is not a good idea. She is 7 and did it at 10km/hr on a offroad track on a pushbike. A newbie bike rider going 70k/hr and learning the same mistake on the open road - it doesn't need to happen.

I rode bmx since I was a kid and then raced mtb competitively for 15 years before getting on a motorbike. That's why I struggle with "you have to bin to learn how to ride comments". Its utter bullshit. I intend to never bin my bike and to use it as an excuse for the learning process. Its a record I intend to keep and it means more to me than getting a knee down whilst taking corners fast, stoppies and wheelies (actually stuff you can do on a mtb). I ride to the conditions and at what some would call the pace.

Gain some skills on two wheels without a motor and you will find the learning phase of riding a motorbike is a lot easier. Making all these mistakes on the open road, regardless of how you are riding is still crazy.

When the Wellington Adventure riding guys caught up with me out the coast when I was on my GN they were surprised that I had only been riding a motorbike for a couple of weeks total of my 29 years walking this earth. Fact was I had been on two wheels for 26 of them already and it wasn't a big deal having a motor pushing me along.

Doesn't make me overconfident because I get that on a pushbike. Its when we are pushing each other to go faster or jump further that someone bins it. But worst injury I have had was a face plant into some rocks in all the 15 years racing.

If you want a speed thrill, then hit a down hill at 50km/hr through trees and jumps and if that doesn't give it to you, then do it again but faster. Holding that edge on a mtb can be more than a buzz as doing it at 140 on a motorbike.

Xmas last year my kids got push bikes and we head off to Rotorua and Taupo a few times a month. Teaches you an appreciation for speed and the hurt it can cause. Our neighbors kids got 50cc motorbikes and were hooning around school. One went into the fence at full speed and he got off lightly. Which kids are learning the better skills (and fighting the obesity epidemic at the same time ? )

Big ups to the guys wanting to learn but the real newbies should be proficient on a push bike first, and the confident newbies wanting to learn stoppies and monos etc try them on a push bike first.

Squiggles
9th December 2007, 22:07
Although, I am proud of myself for being able to save the bail considering I've had no bin experience. :2thumbsup And I plan to keep it that way!

yer, keep learning how the bike behaves, brake with both front and rear but remember that rear brake is certainly alot grippier than the drum gn one :sunny:

motorbyclist
9th December 2007, 23:31
Which kids are learning the better skills (and fighting the obesity epidemic at the same time ? )

Big ups to the guys wanting to learn but the real newbies should be proficient on a push bike first,

i do agree, but it never even occurred to me that people haven't ridden a pushbike at some point... i mean, now you mention it maybe it isn't all that common for kids to spend a few years on a pushbike before getting a motorbike.... but where would they learn balance?

but i will note that learning to ride a motorbike on a dirtbike is a very good idea, as you learn alot of things that you don't learn on a pushbike as they are specific to having an engine powering a heavy vehicle with a clutch and power that keeps coming even if you aren't

both me and my brother started on dirtbikes after a few years of pedal power and we haven't had a "lost control/fucked up/too fast for skill/corner" crash between us in a combined 5 years on the road... and we're both bloody nuts
(have had two crashes; my recent bin due to not paying any attention/possibly sleeping and his 4wd incident where driver was at fault)

and btw, those kids will be fitter that a mountain biker if they keep up the motox - apparently two seperate studies of athletes both confirmed that motox riders had the best cardio-vascular fitness of any athletic sport, able to hold heartrates upwards of 160bpm for 30 minutes - which is scary quite frankly. apparently some guys could do 180 for that long but i'm pretty sure that'd kill you.
but don't beleive me? you try hauling 100kg of steel at high speed over rough terrain where most your suspension is ultimately in your legs and arms;)


oh, and assuming you're 26 or older, perhaps you've grown out of the "indestructible" mental phase that most 15-25 year olds seem to be in.... can't wait till my insurance company gives me a big box of skill for my 25th birthday:2thumbsup

jrandom
9th December 2007, 23:50
best cardio-vascular fitness of any athletic sport, able to hold heartrates upwards of 160bpm for 30 minutes...

:confused:

That is not impressive.

The last half-marathon I did, I was wearing a HR monitor, and I ran at 170-180bpm for two hours.

Cyclists will typically ride at 160-190bpm for several hours at a time for an endurance race.

Not that it's not good exercise, but I'd say that MXing giving you better cardiovascular fitness than running, cycling, rowing etc is bollocks.

motorbyclist
10th December 2007, 00:42
:confused:

That is not impressive.

The last half-marathon I did, I was wearing a HR monitor, and I ran at 170-180bpm for two hours.

Cyclists will typically ride at 160-190bpm for several hours at a time for an endurance race.

Not that it's not good exercise, but I'd say that MXing giving you better cardiovascular fitness than running, cycling, rowing etc is bollocks.

really? well then that figure of 180 must ave been ligit.... i thought the mechanical limit of the heart was 180 so thought it must've been 160.... you tried riding a dirtbike seriously for MX or enduro? if not, you have no idea... any other dirt riders going to comment here?

Defiant
10th December 2007, 07:21
I dont know bout the heart rate thing but i can say that i learnt to ride when i was 4years old and have ridden since then. I have raced MX competitively and my riding equates to more that 25 years worth on my own and i can say that in my own mind that, going for a ride on a Mountain bike or BMX is a damn site more exercise to me than going for a trail ride...I mean go for a 2 hour cycle ride....and then try to make you MX tank of fuel last 2 hours NON STOP at a PACE that KEEPS your heart rate up there.....Pffft..


Sorry man im with Jrandom on this one.

jrandom
10th December 2007, 07:37
you tried riding a dirtbike seriously for MX or enduro? if not, you have no idea...

Have you tried riding a mountainbike seriously?

I've raced the Karapoti trail loop on a hardtail MTB. Tell anyone that it's just as much work on an MX bike as an MTB and you'll get laughed at. I've see plenty of soft-looking middle-aged sorts and young kids happily heading out there with motorcycles who'd die if they tried doing that 50km under their own steam.

Not saying that riding motorcycles fast offroad isn't hard work, but, come on.

Chrislost
10th December 2007, 09:28
you have to learn from the bins.
yours and other peoples.

like ive been reminded the importance of actually tipping into the corner 3 times since uni finished.

go to the track and get used to doing stuff at 5x the speed of road riding.

SHARPEN UP

Drunken Monkey
10th December 2007, 09:51
Have you tried riding a mountainbike seriously?

I've raced the Karapoti trail loop on a hardtail MTB. Tell anyone that it's just as much work on an MX bike as an MTB and you'll get laughed at. I've see plenty of soft-looking middle-aged sorts and young kids happily heading out there with motorcycles who'd die if they tried doing that 50km under their own steam.

Not saying that riding motorcycles fast offroad isn't hard work, but, come on.

Hmmm, I do both and would still rate MX more physically demanding...

jrandom
10th December 2007, 09:59
I do both and would still rate MX more physically demanding...

Oh.

Well, all right then...

motorbyclist
10th December 2007, 12:06
I dont know bout the heart rate thing but i can say that i learnt to ride when i was 4years old and have ridden since then. I have raced MX competitively and my riding equates to more that 25 years worth on my own and i can say that in my own mind that, going for a ride on a Mountain bike or BMX is a damn site more exercise to me than going for a trail ride...I mean go for a 2 hour cycle ride....and then try to make you MX tank of fuel last 2 hours NON STOP at a PACE that KEEPS your heart rate up there.....Pffft..


firstly, do some enduro man! you aren't riding hard enough:bleh:

me and my mate will go to a trail ride or a bike park and be the first on the track and the last to leave... even the bikes struggle to keep up with us - we start running low on petrol, coolant and cable ties by the end of the day:laugh:


Have you tried riding a mountainbike seriously?

Not saying that riding motorcycles fast offroad isn't hard work, but, come on.

yes, to be fair, pedalling is hard work, and yes i have tried MTB but it was mostly downhill after the easy ride up the hill, and that was back when i had a pedal bike so i was used to it

gotta hand it to you guys though, i find mtb scary being on such a light, narrow bike... i just never trust the tyres


Hmmm, I do both and would still rate MX more physically demanding...

MX i find is really hard on you for 30 minutes, and enduro is slightly less hard-out but for alot longer and by the end of the day, once the adrenaline wears off, you can hardly move, let alone load the bikes back in the van:laugh:

it's weird - you're going flat tack over whoops and all sorts, can feel the muscles in your legs and arms burning but the adrenaline keeps you going.... then you crash and have to pick the bike up, drag it out of the ditch, and try to kick start the damn thing and it's flooded! it's when i'm kickstarting i realise my heart is pounding so hard my whole chest can feel it and i'm puffing so much it's not funny... bike starts and i'm off again

get back to carpark - skull a litre of watered down fruit juice and head out again:headbang:

and then spend the next day shuffling round like an old man:laugh:

which is weird because while i can keep that up for a personal record of 8 hours riding the bike with 10 minute stops for fuel every 2.5 hours, there's no way i could keep that up running or cycling without the adrenaline

jrandom
10th December 2007, 12:19
yes i have tried MTB but it was mostly downhill after the easy ride up the hill...

'Proper' downhill MTBing is for people with the reflexes of a 12-year-old and too little imagination to be scared of death.

Shudder.

Cycling tends to be mostly about going uphill. Try pedalling 500 nonstop vertical metres at a 10% grade over a rocky, muddy trail.

If you can make it to the top without getting off and crawling or stopping to vomit, you're a harder man than most.

:sunny:

motorbyclist
10th December 2007, 12:25
'Proper' downhill MTBing is for people with the reflexes of a 12-year-old and too little imagination to be scared of death.

Shudder.

Cycling tends to be mostly about going uphill. Try pedalling 500 nonstop vertical metres at a 10% grade over a rocky, muddy trail.

If you can make it to the top without getting off and crawling or stopping to vomit, you're a harder man than most.

:sunny:

yeah, that's why i mentioned it was downhill with a gentle ride up - fuck doing it the other way round!

Macstar
10th December 2007, 14:06
Ra ra ra - we are not interested in heart rates

HungusMaximist
10th December 2007, 14:33
Well, I am just glad nobody lost a limb on those bins but like I mentioned before on another thread, binning is just a part of Motorcycling.

Glad that you ran this thread because I think it's a good time that we got our club together to do course which can help us identify our weaknesses.

I do feel you Dririder/little Nish with all your mishaps in the past month of starting your Motorcycling but keep at it bro, you can only get better!

dipshit
10th December 2007, 15:33
fuck just slow down.
and what the hell is the point, really, in doing 140 kph on a straight. maybe once or twice for the experience, but after that there's not skill involved! just pick some nice, tight, windy roads so you're forced to keep the speeds legal


Ummm... he is saying he is doing 140 in 55 kph sign posted corners.

dipshit
10th December 2007, 15:47
i don't wanna give up road riding. but i don't think i have much choice, for my own safety, i dunno what to do.

Do yourself and everybody else a favour and give it a rest for a while. If you ever do manage to grow up and develop some self-control, then maybe you could get back into it sometime in the future.

One of the most important skills in motorcycling is self-control. If you haven't got it, then don't.

Drunken Monkey
10th December 2007, 17:31
Cycling tends to be mostly about going uphill. Try pedalling 500 nonstop vertical metres at a 10% grade over a rocky, muddy trail.


ugh, sounds like the 42nd traverse ride I did earlier this year. One section was all uphill for 45 minutes, all 2nd to lowest and lowest gear.

HTFU
10th December 2007, 18:25
really? well then that figure of 180 must ave been ligit.... i thought the mechanical limit of the heart was 180 so thought it must've been 160.... you tried riding a dirtbike seriously for MX or enduro? if not, you have no idea... any other dirt riders going to comment here?

Similar comment from people that do shearing, was in the paper when a women was going for a enduro shearing record, that it was harder than running two marathons back to back.

I don't disagree that its hard work but its a bit more a mix of strength endurance and cardiovascular endurance because of the nature of the muscle contraction (that is you are holding something for a longer period of time than say a leg muscle contracting during running - I won't bore everyone with the technical terms, but the HR will still be highish which gives the impression that is it really cardiovascular)

Easiest way to understand why such calls are made for how tough the sport is, are basically because of the pain associated with it. A shearer or MX rider will be puffing, so it feels really cardiovascular, but the real pain comes from sitting or bending in the same position for hours holding on to something (sheep or bike). Its like putting your arm out at right angles and timing how long it can stay there. Bloody painful and mentally only the tough bastards can do it well.

Most top mx riders will ride push bikes to improve their fitness so that indicates that the MX riding doesn't do enough and the cycling helps them to get fitter and to ride better. You won't see many top cyclists, runners, rowers etc shearing and doing MX to improve their sports despite claims that these activities are harder and the athletes that do them are fitter.

We had a NZ sevens player come to take some fitness testing for our rugby practice and he started off by explaining how fit they had to be under Gordon Tichens. He went on about the fact they were some of the fittest athletes in NZ ;). He did the 3km run with us. I regularly ran under 9 mins at the time ( and was a mid pac runner at Nationals - top guys were close to 8 minutes or better) and he struggled to do 10 minutes. A bit of a reality check for the big guy.

Last half marathon I ran averaged 190 BPM although it was only for 1 hr 13 min not the cruel 2hrs mr JRandom had to endure (good on you though big fella) :third: but I must say I feel just as stuffed doing a day throwing hay bales, or shifting kitchens around if you are going hard enough.

Anyway a bit off topic - this thread was about KBers who can offer any other practical riding programmes where our members can build up their cornering, braking, defensive driving skills etc - so my suggestion is go mountain biking a few times.

badassbandit
11th December 2007, 00:11
Do yourself and everybody else a favour and give it a rest for a while. If you ever do manage to grow up and develop some self-control, then maybe you could get back into it sometime in the future.

One of the most important skills in motorcycling is self-control. If you haven't got it, then don't.

Fuk thats a stupid idea, best thing to do is jump back on the horse!!
If you leave it for a while you will just grow a fear, as i see it these bins stem from lack of confidence/ bad reading of corners and having a break will just destroy any remaining confidence for when they start riding again.

I have found following somebody more experienced helps an amazing amount as you can follow there lines/lean angles aslong as they are not going to hard, just showing smooth lines through the corners. SM is right about there being alot to learn on KB, i often stay up late reading accient threads till the wee hours of the morning and then go practice the next day. UncleB who i have read alot about seemed to have helped many riders and just reading threads about his teachings has helped me alot.
I havent had a bin on the open road, only one or two overruns but would still really like some mentoring so i can become a better rider. A thing the uni club really needs is someone with 10+ years of riding under their belt who can mentor learners to become safer and more confident riders, i guess a real shortfall of the club being based around uni is that everybody is relatively young and imature. Perhaps next year we should make it a regular thing to all ride out to the monday night rides together where we can interact with more mature riders.

Ehab i see you are keeping a low profile in this thread was your bin prity bad? you should post some photos of the damage.

xwhatsit
11th December 2007, 00:20
but like I mentioned before on another thread, binning is just a part of Motorcycling.
Hell no. Plenty of people here on KB (we had a thread about it once -- haven't we had a thread about everything now? :2thumbsup) who haven't crashed in 30-40 years. I don't plan on ever crashing again after my three-days-after-licence-run-wide-on-corner incident. It's all about skill. Skilled riders don't crash. If you crash, it's because you're not a good enough rider -- either you don't have the skills required to go around corners, or because your cage-survival skills haven't developed enough yet. Sure, many crashes aren't our fault, but if we weren't such poor riders we would know how to avoid those situations in the first place or take evasive action.

So, SMC, let's learn how to fucking ride. It's an embarrassment.

ital916
11th December 2007, 07:05
I reckon a lot of guys need to tone down on what they say to learners. Some people aren't great riders at first guys. I've crashed i'm learning, i'm back on the road...i'll learn to ride better. If a noob crashes, find the problem and learn to rectify it, dob't just say learn to f***ing ride better lol

Macstar
11th December 2007, 09:19
I had a chat with Squiggles the other day and we sussed out a plan for the club members, he's going to put something up in writing any day now.

In the mean time I'm going to go and check this out tomorrow:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=53059&highlight=wednesday+night+ride

Ragingrob
11th December 2007, 09:20
I think the whole point is sure, learners such as myself aren't meant to be great at cornering and situational awareness etc etc and this is what we have to get better and better at just through practise and being smart. My view is that learners only crash (apart from other cars being involved) when they push themselves over their limit, too hard for their ability. Practise everything at a slower pace before you open up the throttle. Know that you're a learner still and don't take it as a bad thing, it's just a fact.

I've been improving my riding through practice and mistakes by going at a pace I'm comfortable with and pushing to my limit, but not over it. I know that if I take that one step further then I'll probably bin it at my own fault. Why try to ride better than you know you can??

Everyone makes mistakes like I did the other day when I fish-tailed but controlled it, that was pushing myself to my limit seeing as it was wet and I learnt from it. If I'd been going too fast on a corner and over my limit when I had to do that I'd be off that bike before I could say oops! It's like swimming at the beach - "Know your limits"

:2thumbsup

Macstar
11th December 2007, 09:23
P.S. I'm trying to get my shit together so that I can race the KTM this Saturday at Mt Wellington - though I need about $200 worth of race permitting parts and entry fees...:pinch:

klyong82
11th December 2007, 10:37
I don't have a problem riding with newbies as once upon a time I was one and I would not mind giving my experiences of riding a bike to them. The only way they can improve is just keep riding or practising and also observe from more experience riders.

I am not going to critised them for been a newbie or been slow on our rides. Most rides we organised tend to be newbie friendly while at times we do advised if some rides are targeted for experience riders.

Come to think of it I think this is the third out of the many rides we have organised that had bins.

motorbyclist
11th December 2007, 10:59
Fuk thats a stupid idea, best thing to do is jump back on the horse!!
If you leave it for a while you will just grow a fear, as i see it these bins stem from lack of confidence/ bad reading of corners and having a break will just destroy any remaining confidence for when they start riding again.


Ehab i see you are keeping a low profile in this thread was your bin prity bad? you should post some photos of the damage.

skidmark was talking about quitting while he's ahead - ie before he crashes.

and ehab is having internet troubles

dipshit
11th December 2007, 15:00
Fuk thats a stupid idea, best thing to do is jump back on the horse!!

I was replying to skidMark. His problem is that he is overconfident, not lacking in confidence.

HungusMaximist
11th December 2007, 15:20
Hell no. Plenty of people here on KB (we had a thread about it once -- haven't we had a thread about everything now? :2thumbsup) who haven't crashed in 30-40 years. I don't plan on ever crashing again after my three-days-after-licence-run-wide-on-corner incident. It's all about skill. Skilled riders don't crash. If you crash, it's because you're not a good enough rider -- either you don't have the skills required to go around corners, or because your cage-survival skills haven't developed enough yet. Sure, many crashes aren't our fault, but if we weren't such poor riders we would know how to avoid those situations in the first place or take evasive action.

So, SMC, let's learn how to fucking ride. It's an embarrassment.

Ha, well I ant taking back that part about crashing!

What I meant is that there's always a risk of a bin regardless if it's your fault or not. Best not to focus on whether you're gonna bin or not when you're riding as the worst always happen when you visualize too much shit.
I do agree that a lot of crashes are purely down to riding skill but learning/evading is only one part of motorcycling.



P.S. I'm trying to get my shit together so that I can race the KTM this Saturday at Mt Wellington - though I need about $200 worth of race permitting parts and entry fees...:pinch:

We'll hold a fundraising night...


I reckon a lot of guys need to tone down on what they say to learners. Some people aren't great riders at first guys. I've crashed i'm learning, i'm back on the road...i'll learn to ride better. If a noob crashes, find the problem and learn to rectify it, dob't just say learn to f***ing ride better lol

Little Nish, don't take all this forum stuff too much at heart. When you meet them personally face to face half of them won't even have the balls to say that shit to your face. :2thumbsup

xwhatsit
11th December 2007, 15:55
I reckon a lot of guys need to tone down on what they say to learners. Some people aren't great riders at first guys. I've crashed i'm learning, i'm back on the road...i'll learn to ride better. If a noob crashes, find the problem and learn to rectify it, dob't just say learn to f***ing ride better lol

I wasn't talking about you, mate, you really are very fresh to this whole biking thing and you seem to have the right attitude, three crashes or not. What I'm talking about is the nonces who think they know how to ride but really are unskilled squids. A certain GSX rider comes to mind.

I know I've still got poor skills; I've only done 20-30,000kms; and for that reason I choose to ride within my skill level. The result is faster levelling and less rezzing.

ital916
11th December 2007, 17:32
No problemo dudes. Well looks like the fairing will have to wait for a few weeks for paid day and the fact i need my indicator up and running pronto for my safety! Bike stores are quoting a bit sinc ei fucking sheared it off and they need to make a bracket. In the mean time a little duct tape should stop the fairing from vibrating too much for the next week or so lol