Will it run again.?

[FROSTY]

take 1 x single cylinder 4 stroke motorcycle-Sump capacity 1.0l of quality oil
Add a nasty split in the back of the petrol tank which by a horrible desighn fault drained fuel into the airbox.
Filling that up to the baffles then drains the air box load of fuel via the crankcase breather into the bikes sump.
Keep adding fuel until there is 3l of fuel in the sump.
Ride said motorcycle till it stops
Drain sump contents to find NO oil just a slightly oily 3.0l (or so) of fuel (mower fuel anyone?)
Concider the options.
Cause of problem is pretty clear.
Damage done --will it run with just fresh oil added?
Bigends fucked?
Crank bearings fucked.
Bore a scratched mess of pigiron?
_Ohh said bike still turns over

[The Pastor]

Give it a go whats the worst that could happen........

[tri boy]

It'll go again, but I would expect some damage. (maybe even a bent rod if it hydraulic ed)

[Ocean1]

Run?

Probably, but why would you bother, an afternoon would see the wee beastie stripped and bearings don't cost much.

Worst case the bore's fucked, then you need to make a call as to if it's worth the cost. Iron bore? meh, find the biggest piston that'll fit and bore it out to suit. While you're there you moght as well stroke the damn thing as well. :whistle:

[FilthyLuka]

Run?

Probably, but why would you bother, an afternoon would see the wee beastie stripped and bearings don't cost much.

Worst case the bore's fucked, then you need to make a call as to if it's worth the cost. Iron bore? meh, find the biggest piston that'll fit and bore it out to suit. While you're there you moght as well stroke the damn thing as well. :whistle:

Would be kinda hard seeing as the owners collection of tools was found under the seat of the bike (no offence)

[Mike748]

So long as it wasn't being thrashed to buggery before it stopped? then I don't see why not, it should be nice n clean like it's had one major engine flush.
Wear would depend on how long has said ovefilling been going on.

[Ocean1]

Would be kinda hard seeing as the owners collection of tools was found under the seat of the bike (no offence)

What, exactly are we talking about here?

Don't need much to strip yer average baby thumper...

[jonbuoy]

Top it up with cheap oil and see what it sounds like?
Edit - I had a similar problem with carbs filling the engine up with petrol in the past, engine choked itself to death on the super rich mixture before any serious engine damage happened.

[Henk]

Top it up with cheap oil and see what it sounds like.

What he said. After all at this stage, what have you got to lose?

[Squiggles]

EJ's bike is in a not so good state then :bugger:

He might be looking at that $700ish motor on tardme sometime soon then?

[Kickaha]

Damage done --will it run with just fresh oil added?


If the damge is already done then it wont cost anything but the oil to try, I reckon it'll be ok,the roller bearing bottom ends can handle a lot more abuse than you'd think

If it is fucked I'm interested in buying the engine

[sAsLEX]

If the damge is already done then it wont cost anything but the oil to try, I reckon it'll be ok,the roller bearing bottom ends can handle a lot more abuse than you'd think

If it is fucked I'm interested in buying the engine

Remember the Kwak Superbike ran without oil on the rev limiter till the exhaust was glowing red hot........... filled it the next day with oil and it went fine!

[Ixion]

If it's a roller bearing big end it should be fine. After all, how much oil do two strokes get ?

Piston will only be an issue if it seized. Cam bearings are probably the weakest link, easy enough to check

But, was the oil that dilute when it was actually running, or has more leaked in while it's been sitting ?


Those little engines are tough. I reckon it'll be good to go.

[FROSTY]

trouble may be that it might have been run a very long time with petroil in the sump

[Ixion]

I got two strokes that have run for all their lives with petroil in the sump. It'll be fine. So long a sthere's nothing that relies on pressure lubrication.

If there is anything fucked it'll be in the cylinder head, not the bottom end.

I mean, it ain't exactly a Manx Norton to start with , is it.

[rudolph]

everything will be nice and clean:niceone:

[howdamnhard]

What he said.

What he said. After all at this stage, what have you got to lose?

[breakaway]

Something worth mentioning: the FXR150 is a 4 stroke machine.

[xwhatsit]

I got two strokes that have run for all their lives with petroil in the sump. It'll be fine. So long a sthere's nothing that relies on pressure lubrication.

If there is anything fucked it'll be in the cylinder head, not the bottom end.

I mean, it ain't exactly a Manx Norton to start with , is it.

It does do 10,000rpm, however, which would have the dear Manx in a pile of bevel bits and cam interconnect gears.

Some people on here saw photos of my bike when I pulled the top end down when it stopped going. A steelmill's worth of metal shavings from the top end down into the sump. Cam bearings, in the head, carved to bits. The cam wouldn't even rotate. A little bit of elbow grease, a small hammer to shape the cam bearing edge, new valves and cam/camchain, scraping the filings out of the sump and flushing the oil a few times, and it cracked back into life, simple as that. I couldn't believe what abuse it had taken. It's still running, unopened after maybe 10-20,000kms (dunno, changed the speedo a couple of times); the piston still has the two dents in the top from the valves that hit.

Air-cooled singles, even 10,000rpm ones, can take quite the beating and still run. My money is on `yes'.

[gijoe1313]

yeah, what all you guys sez! :yes:

[FilthyLuka]

I think an issue may have been that there was THREE litres of fuel in a ONE litre sump... All that excess fluid may well have blown past and fucked the rings (heh, hence lack of compression...) Ahwell, we will see what happens.

It also appears the bike has been running for around 3000km like this :S

[FROSTY]

its alive I tell you its alive.
Ok it starts and runs now.
Left it overnight with every orifice open to the air to evaporate off the fuel in the sump and airbox.
Bolted it (sorta) back together ,therew the old oil filter and 1.0l of 10w 50 oil into it and connected the fuel back up.
and it bloody goes--No odvious bangs or clunks or Im gonna sshit myself type noises.
BUT --it will only idle.-good healthy idle thiough
Cracked the top offa the carb and the diaphram looks well and truely munched like its not fully engaged round the rim its sposed to be stuck in--methinks it also has been fuel soaked--or fucked with by someone.


So DEFINITELY neeeded--either rear of fuel tank propperly welded up OR a replacement tank
Another 1.0l of good oil and an oil filter
Probably needed a new carb Diapheram

[ManDownUnder]

When you say it stopped... just died or did the whole (and horrible) screaming to a rapid halt, back wheel locked, eyes locked shut, in the kind of screaming panting painful cry schoolboys dream of achieving with the woman of their dreams?

Sounds like a teardown to me mate... bigends, gudgeons, bores, valveguides etc etc etc. Too many places where a lack of oil gets really awkward.

[FROSTY]

Actually heres the funny thing. I use clearish 20l ci\ontainers to dump oil into for disposal.
Just had a look at the "fuel" I dumped in there last night.
I know it was at least 3.0l of oily looking petrol.
But now its down to 1.5l of definitely oily petrolish stuff.

[EJK]

What oil should I bring tmrw?

P.S. I think I got ripped off when buying the bike :argh:

[Ixion]

its alive I tell you its alive.
Ok it starts and runs now.
Left it overnight with every orifice open to the air to evaporate off the fuel in the sump and airbox.
Bolted it (sorta) back together ,therew the old oil filter and 1.0l of 10w 50 oil into it and connected the fuel back up.
and it bloody goes--No odvious bangs or clunks or Im gonna sshit myself type noises.
BUT --it will only idle.-good healthy idle thiough
Cracked the top offa the carb and the diaphram looks well and truely munched like its not fully engaged round the rim its sposed to be stuck in--methinks it also has been fuel soaked--or fucked with by someone.


So DEFINITELY neeeded--either rear of fuel tank propperly welded up OR a replacement tank
Another 1.0l of good oil and an oil filter
Probably needed a new carb Diapheram

Told y' so. Tough little buggers them little singles.

Araldite will fix that tank.

I'm thinking the diaphragm may be the reason it actually stopped. Whether the petrol contamination caused that or whether it was unrelated, who knows.

New diaphragm and a bit of Araldite and it'll be as good as new.

[Ixion]

Actually heres the funny thing. I use clearish 20l ci\ontainers to dump oil into for disposal.
Just had a look at the "fuel" I dumped in there last night.
I know it was at least 3.0l of oily looking petrol.
But now its down to 1.5l of definitely oily petrolish stuff.

Oil (and petrol) was probably micro aerated, cos of the sump being overfilled. Sort of frothed up like a milkshake. Overnight the air has come out (Wild guess mind you)

[FROSTY]

No mate I'm pretty sure that theres a number of causes.
3 plus literes of fuel in a 1.0l sump -Im pretty sure I heard the piston going "splosh" as it hit BDC. Airbox fulla gas. and yep diaphram is definitely an issue
Then again Colemans mechanics may be right -maybee it still has low compression
What causes a bike to idle pretty well normally---bettter with choke on
then die when you turn some throttle on??

[EJK]

What causes a bike to idle pretty well normally---bettter with choke on
then die when you turn some throttle on??

Same thing happened on the day 1!

[FROSTY]

Same thing happened on the day 1!
so how didya fix it that time?

[EJK]

Dumped the petrol from the airbox, then readjust the carb. I'm not too sure about the carb part but GIJOE knows all. I'll come over soon

[FROSTY]

EL--I'd start organising a tank--or for your tank to be welded up/araldyted/kneadited properly
I suspect that the knead it repair thats been done is still leaking a bit.
Ya need to get nice bright shiney metal showing then get stuck in with a repair.

[EJK]

Weldings done by previous owner I assume... the Kneadit was done from Kawakawa mechs.

[FROSTY]

-that tank has been leaking for a very long time--its stained the frame
Dont swet it --lets get it sorted so ya can ride again.

[EJK]

That tank has been leaking wayyyyyyyyyyyy before I bought the bike lol

No kidding here

[xwhatsit]

Awesome.

A compression test is definitely a good idea, though. Still possible those inlet valves are in the state Coleman's Suzuki said, or perhaps the rings are farked like everybody said. Have you got a compression gauge, Frosty?

[Ixion]

I think I'd pull that carb off and tear it down. And then reset by the book. Idles OK then dies with throttle could be the diaphragm (slide not lifting). Or a super high fuel level , flooding it once it moves off the pilot jet. Or a few other things. Especially if the carbs been monkeyed about with


Yep, compression test to see what the top ends like. If it idles smoothly, starts readily and has decent compression, there's not all that much wrong.

[EJK]

We suspect its a CDI problem...

We'll see soon

[FROSTY]

I think I'd pull that carb off and tear it down. And then reset by the book. Idles OK then dies with throttle could be the diaphragm (slide not lifting). Or a super high fuel level , flooding it once it moves off the pilot jet. Or a few other things. Especially if the carbs been monkeyed about with


Yep, compression test to see what the top ends like. If it idles smoothly, starts readily and has decent compression, there's not all that much wrong.
Diddnt do a compression test--it starts and idles quietly with the choke on.Then once warm idles with choke off.
We hauled top off carb and diaphram would not fit in its groove. No amount of cajoling would make it fit.A real bodgey fix has it in the groove.
Checked the jets and all seems to be functioning correctly.
Logic says --it was running ok. whilst slowly filling the crankcase with fuel untill it finally said enough.Not helped by a sick battery/starter motor.
So now just wont lift into run mode

[Squiggles]

This is for a complete gasket set if needed (http://www.motorbikeparts.co.nz/product_details.php?category_id=2&sub_category_id=3&product_id=129)

Theres also a tank but its in the blue colour scheme, and has a small ding in it, (http://www.motorbikeparts.co.nz/product_details.php?category_id=2&sub_category_id=5&product_id=320)plus a racing cdi here (http://www.motorbikeparts.co.nz/product_details.php?category_id=2&sub_category_id=8&product_id=163)

Fix the current tank i reckon, its just that lip where bottom meets top thats fucked, with the bonus that the bracket holding it gets in the way

[xwhatsit]

What makes you think CDI? Diaphragm might be a bit swollen if it won't fit properly -- I found some replacement (non-OEM) carb rubber bits and bobs did that too after being left in fuel for a while. Left them out to dry overnight and they returned to their correct shape and size.

The first problem the bike had after EJ bought it was traced down to an intake manifold leak. The carb came loose from the manifold. Are you dead sure it's all sealed up nicely?

[MSTRS]

What causes a bike to idle pretty well normally---bettter with choke on
then die when you turn some throttle on??
Badly, and I mean Badly, off air/fuel ratio.

[EJK]

Nothing to do with the carb diaphram up-and-down timing?


This is for a complete gasket set if needed (http://www.motorbikeparts.co.nz/product_details.php?category_id=2&sub_category_id=3&product_id=129)

Theres also a tank but its in the blue colour scheme, and has a small ding in it, (http://www.motorbikeparts.co.nz/product_details.php?category_id=2&sub_category_id=5&product_id=320)plus a racing cdi here (http://www.motorbikeparts.co.nz/product_details.php?category_id=2&sub_category_id=8&product_id=163)

Fix the current tank i reckon, its just that lip where bottom meets top thats fucked, with the bonus that the bracket holding it gets in the way

Btw, very good website thanks.

[Mike748]

What makes you think CDI? Diaphragm might be a bit swollen if it won't fit properly -- I found some replacement (non-OEM) carb rubber bits and bobs did that too after being left in fuel for a while. Left them out to dry overnight and they returned to their correct shape and size.


I've had similar success drying out rubber parts which have spent too much time swimming in fuel.

If the motor starts and runs on idle then I reckon the comp will be fine and you have a carb/timing issue.

[FilthyLuka]

or a loose spark plug (i'm actually serious, i don't remember tightening the plug, might pay to check it)

[FROSTY]

I tightened the plug--Yes it WAS loose

[EJK]

Now what? :blink:

Does it revs ok?

[MSTRS]

Badly, and I mean Badly, off air/fuel ratio.


Nothing to do with the carb diaphram up-and-down timing?




Who knows. I was no suggesting the reason for the bad ratio. Carbs can be very complex bits of engineering, and there could be any number of reasons why one is not delivering the correct ratio of air-to-fuel. The fact that the engine idles ok, suggests to me that the problem is solely due to the throttle controlled moving parts in the carb, but I don't know which of those parts could be the problem.

[FROSTY]

havent touched it since you were last here

[EJK]

OK comming to pick it up on Sunday around 4pm (sorry about the changed date).