Disbelief at what I heard

[ital916]

Okay, so it was the SMC stand yesterday at the womansfest day in the quad at uni. A good cause as we were trying to sign up new female riders and educate a few people with open ears to the realities of motorcycling. What did happen though is a lot of people who I thought were quite open in their views talking shit that I thought was straight up crap.

A lady walked up interested in getting a scooter. Said scooter would be used for a five to ten minute commute from her living accomodation to university. I recommended that she should budget in 1000-1500 for a scooter and roughly 600 dollars for a jacket, gloves, helmet and draggin jeans *along with words of caution that sturdy boots are a good idea, not including high heels which is not a good idea*. All fine until a colleague stated never...NEVER buy an open face helmet, if you ever want to have a face. This is where opinions and self control parted way, and the point where laughter turned into annoyance and debate. Motorcycling is a very personal hobby, full of individual choices and opinions. Now I hold nothing against the club *now I say club as I got a pretty unanimous picture that all there hated open face helmets bar me* but to hear a group of educated and what I used to believe sensible motorcyclists talking shit about products many of them have never even tried. Yes if you come off with an open face helmet you MAY land on your chin, or your nose or get catapulted eyeballs first into a fence post but that is a risk many riders who wear open face helmets take into account. When I am selling motorcycle gear, I INFORM said riders of the possiblities of injuries that may occur, but once that has been said, if they decide to wear an open face helmet, THAT IS THEIR CHOICE.

I don't mind having an opinion on products but that is my opinion and it is not my place to slander products. A fine example was said club noting that open face helemts are shit. On the contrary the quality and comfort of say davida open face helemts are extrodinary and if I could I would have one in an heartbeat. Many motorcyclists I have met have been riding with open face helmets their entire lives and never had a single injury/complaint. I believe in educating the public to the injuries that can be sustained but for fucks sake, motorcycling is a dangerous pursuit in it's nature, if you don't like it take up boating or reading books inside a plastic safety bubble.

Another point is the hypocrisy that I felt was emanating quite heavily. Oh no don't ride with open face helemts thats bad, but feel free to go ahead and ride without gloves, with normal jeans on and running shoes. If your going to preach safety, stick behind it and preach properly or don't. I'm a safety nut when It comes to motorycling. I understand that it is a dangerous hobby and as such wear full gear, everywhere I go be it near or far. This is from knowing the consequences of what can happen. To tell people coming to the stand for information about the dangers of riding a two wheeled vehicle, then saying such and such products are crap they won't protect you, then saying riding in normal clothes is fine is unbelievable.

Trying to discuss/debate the issue at the time just eventuated in dushy bashing and a lot of stop stirring up shit. I'm sorry if my opinion didn't gel with that of the clubs but from the sounds of it a lot of club members need to pull their heads out of their asses. I admit I poke fun a lot in good jest but when serious issues arise I deal with it sensibly, a trait I can't see in many members. I don't mean to offend, but if that is how the club wishes to portray itself to the public, then I think the club will just a get a bad rep.

I will also say this for the last time, yes I have come off a few times. For the final record, I have come off once at a speed of 40km/h, once at 20km/h in the wet on diesel. Three times learning to ride on gravel, two stationary drop. I was wearing full gear and have walked away unharmed, unlike some members. I have learnt from my mistakes and fully acknowledge the mistakes made and don't excuse them. Please stop referring to my accidents as if I am a hooligan. I am willing to use them as examples of what not to do, but as katman says only I was to blame, I live, and I have learnt. I am a cautious safe rider. Fini.

[riffer]

I dunno mate. My father was always an advocate of the open face helmet until the day he went headfirst over the top of a VW on The Terrace, and ended up with 12 stitches to his chin.

He bought a Bell helmet the next week (this was the 70s).

[DMNTD]

Personally I refuse to sell open face helmets but do direct the customer to the parts department if the do choose to buy one.

[bungbung]

It's on the safety continuum isn't it?

ATGATT with full face helmets and back protectors at one extreme, and stiletto heels and itsy-bitsy, teeny-tiny etc. bikinis at the other.

29.95 open face helmets from the chinese supermarket
vs. trendy momo helmets

If you've ever landed on your face, you'll have a different opinion from those who think a helmet spoils 'the look'.

["D" FZ1]

I personally would never wear a open face helmet. I have seen the results of a lady that went down the road on her face. Ground off her nose, lips and chin. Not a good look.

[vifferman]

While I too would never wear an open-faced helmet, my first three helmets were not fullface ones.
I have hit the road a few times over the past 35 years, and I've hit my head on the ground a total of one (1!) times. That includes writing off two bikes in crashes with cars, running over a bicycle, a pedestrian, one lowside, three other drops due to traction issues, and numerous off-road crashes.
However (but!) the one time I did hit my head which was at a near standstill, the helmet was barely marked and I had mild concussion for three days. Would an open-faced helmet have made a difference? In this case, no, but that's probably a matter of luck more'n anything else.
I did crash a kid's tricycle earlier in my on-road career (got the speed wobbles down a steep hill, from the pedals flailing around at 20 trillion rpm), and faceplanted the road. Minor injuries, but they included a cut chin.

It's all the luck of the draw: if you land face-first, you need full face protection. And as someone else said on KB recently, unfortunately, you can't necessarily choose how you will land when you crash.

[klyong82]

I was at the womansfest too but I dont remember hearing any debate going on cos I was with Squiggles and Shingo looking at a doogy TL website till the mac laptop blew up!! pheww!!

My opinion on open face helmets? Seen a few horrible after crashes on the face from these helmets. Would never wear one again. Have even seen open face helmet with visors that shattered into sharp pieces piercing into riders face...scary

As for gloves I think that is necessary and like most scooters riders are just commuters I dont think they will purchase the full gear but I do advice them to wear thick padded clothing and at least jeans and normal boots at the least....

[Ixion]

I wear full face these days, but I covered many hundreds of thousands of miles in open face lids (and even no lid!).

If it came to a choice, I'd rather have an open face and gloves than a full face and no gloves.

There's open face and open face , too. The HD beanie type are another matter to the 'jet' style. The beanie doesn't protect the back of the head much.You can also get those open face helmets with a big screen, which sort of half converts them into a full face.

I've also seen people (including cops) riding with the flip front helmets in the 'up' postion, which effectively converts them into open face.

I think some people invest helmets with semi magical properties.

[Phurrball]

D, I get where you're coming from, but I personally cringe when I see young, attractive women on scooters with an open face helmet. I forsee the potential, and quite likely, 'ouch' for chins and teeth in an off.

See attached graphic for the reason why - there is empirical data to back up the fact that open-faced helmets are a risky proposition...

[bomma]

imho i also think open face helmets are crap....my aunty came off doing about 40kps and face planted........me and my dad were first on the scene....she knocked her front teeth out and cut her nose and chin area up pretty bad.....few stitches, reconstruction surgery and false teeth were required....she now only rides with a full face helmet and doesnt let anybody ride with open face helmets

[Squiggles]

We're not at the stands to sell products, although we sometimes promote our sponsors gear.

Giving advice is like giving an opinion, its what you believe.

I personally dont care if someone chooses to wear no gear, thats their choice. I'd recommend they wear some, for the obvious reasons, but when it comes down to it, its the individuals choice. And its only sad if they dont know the risks.

I suspect whoever pointed out the cons of open face helmets was merely informing the person that they are not always as effective (with perhaps just a bit of overkill). A wise move, its now their choice to take that on, or take the risk knowing what has been said (or justfuckinggoogleit if its questionable advice). Just as i know what gravel rash is, i ride to uni in jeans. If someone told me explicitly that jeans were perfect, and i believed them, then injured myself, isnt that the same as someone saying an open face is perfect, not knowing any better, then loosing a chin as the result of it?

To say open face ones are a fail is a wee bit extreme, but they arent the same when it comes to the chin area.

A question to you though, did you suggest they come on down to motomail to get hooked up?

[vifferman]

See attached graphic...
Willyalookitdat - the one time I hit my head (helmet), it happened to be the most unlikely place to do so: 0.2% of impacts. :blink:

[Unit]

Nothwithstanding the particular item you are talking about, I agree when it comes to sales and opinions. If a prospective purchaser asks my personal opinion, I will give it, and back that up with reason, then offer alternatives that I consider better.
Personally not a fan of open face helmets, even though I have never tried them. However, for the type and level of riding I do one would be inappropriate. I guess its a matter of being consistent with the whole subject too eg "yes mam you will be fine with a mini skirt on but I do find a back protector essential", kinda message wouldnt make sense.

[Marmoot]

Yer faggots the bane of destruction of the pillars of common sense.....really disgusts me...

Take a look at this List A of hypothetical chronological situations:
- acknowledgement: Be careful, scooters/mopeds are motorcycle and there are risks
- advice: Budget $xxx for jackets, gloves, helmets, etc
- warning: Open face helmets are dangerous
- imposition: Don't buy open face helmets
- prohibition: Those who are not wearing full face helmets should be banned
- outrageous: motorcycling is too dangerous and should be banned

Or this List B of hypothetical chronological situations:
- acknowledgement: there are health risk in increased sugar intake
- advice: it is advisable to control your sugar intake by staying away from certain food
- warning: sweet candies and chocolate bars carry high percentage of sugar
- imposition: We should control sweet food sales
- prohibition: selling sweet food around schools should not be allowed
- outrageous: we should make laws to tell people what they can and cannot eat for their own sakes.

Similar process...I hope none of youse ever have powers to make changes in the society because I for sure still want to decide for my own fate.
God gave me free will. Who are you to take it away?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yer faggots the bane of destruction of the pillars of common sense.....really disgusts me...

Take a look at this List A of hypothetical chronological situations:
- acknowledgement: Be careful, scooters/mopeds are motorcycle and there are risks
- advice: Budget $xxx for jackets, gloves, helmets, etc
- warning: Open face helmets are dangerous
- imposition: Don't buy open face helmets
- prohibition: Those who are not wearing full face helmets should be banned
- outrageous: motorcycling is too dangerous and should be banned

Or this List B of hypothetical chronological situations:
- acknowledgement: there are health risk in increased sugar intake
- advice: it is advisable to control your sugar intake by staying away from certain food
- warning: sweet candies and chocolate bars carry high percentage of sugar
- imposition: We should control sweet food sales
- prohibition: selling sweet food around schools should not be allowed
- outrageous: we should make laws to tell people what they can and cannot eat for their own sakes.

Similar process...I hope none of youse ever have powers to make changes in the society because I for sure still want to decide for my own fate.
God gave me free will. Who are you to take it away?

I am Uncle Helen, your once elected never unelected Fuhrer for life. I expect you to salute me.

Also, bite me, I'm eating a Peanut Slab.


Right now.

Damn its goooooood

[Ryan432]

Safety issues aside why would you want to ride to uni in the mornings in the freezing cold with an open helmet? people who don't ride probably arn't aware how much coldeer the moring is when you are moving at scooter or bike pace.

[NordieBoy]

To say open face ones are a fail is a wee bit extreme, but they arent the same when it comes to the chin area.

I've got a $600 KBC FFR flip front and on the chin bar are the words "Does not protect chin from impact".
1800g of flippy that I ride (in the hills) with the flip flipped or 1300g for an oxford open face with a peak.
My neck votes for the Oxford and it's much better for taking photos with out at cross countries without the chin bar.

When I get my Zeus 2100b I'll probably use it most of the time but it's still around 1700g.

[Sparrowhawk]

Good onya Drider. Personally, I have a full face helmet, but that's my choice. It's one thing to give advice, but if you're at a stand trying to get people to go on 2 wheels and join your 'club', telling them that they'd end up with no face might not be the best way encourage them?

Ya did great by getting them interested, telling them how much it might cost, giving some advice about getting proper gear.

I've had people I work with butt in like that. Tore them a new one afterwards.

[Ixion]

Safety issues aside why would you want to ride to uni in the mornings in the freezing cold with an open helmet? people who don't ride probably arn't aware how much coldeer the moring is when you are moving at scooter or bike pace.

Silk scarf. Toasty warm. Much warmer than a full face with the visor closed. And no fogging problems.

[Ragingrob]

I'm gonna stay outta this one :chase:

:2thumbsup

[PirateJafa]

Fucking westies.

[Swoop]

So, how many ladies decided that 2-wheels are better than 4?

[Squiggles]

Not many, if any .... nah, 2 including Rie :wari:

[Nagash]

I think that's perfectly acceptable bad mouthing open-face helmets. They are in no way the safest option and are usually bought for either convenience or 'The Look'.

I reckon people should bitch more about them.. it makes me look even cooler into my Nazi Helmet Style Skid Lid :D

[cowboyz]

God gave me free will. Who are you to take it away?



Unfortuately, God didnt realise how fucking dumb he made us.

Firstly. Open face helmets are a joke. Wouldnt catch me in a million years riding with one.
Secondly, anyone who buys anything on the advice of a single person is a clown. The wise thing to do would be to ask around. If you (and by "you" I mean anyone who doesnt know shit and wants to know more) gets 400 replies saying full face helmets are the way to go and 50 saying open face helmets are the way to go then it is pretty clear cut which way to go.
As for ATGATT, if you are riding a scooter through town at 50k/hr to commute the chances of coming off and sliding down the road are much less than "open road" riding. However the chances of hitting something hard or something hard hitting you are much more. Full race leathers are not going to offer any more protection slamming into a car than jeans. I have no issues with town riders/commuters riding without full gear as long as there is no skin showing.

[Ixion]

I think that's perfectly acceptable bad mouthing open-face helmets. They are in no way the safest option and are usually bought for either convenience or 'The Look'.

I reckon people should bitch more about them.. it makes me look even cooler into my Nazi Helmet Style Skid Lid :D

I think that's perfectly acceptable bad mouthing motorbikes. They are in no way the safest option and are usually bought for either convenience or 'The Look'.

I reckon people should bitch more about them.. it makes me look even cooler in my SUV.

[Ragingrob]

OK ok maybe I'll make one comment...

How on earth does the opinion of one, or even five, person(s) even begin to represent the mindset of the entire club??

[Ragingrob]

I think that's perfectly acceptable bad mouthing motorbikes. They are in no way the safest option and are usually bought for either convenience or 'The Look'.

I reckon people should bitch more about them.. it makes me look even cooler in my SUV.

I think that's perfectly acceptable bad mouthing SUVs. They are in no way the safest option and are usually bought for either convenience or 'The Look'.

I reckon people should bitch more about them.. it makes me look even cooler in my Corolla.





This game is fun! :wari:

[Phurrball]

I am Uncle Helen, your once elected never unelected Fuhrer for life. I expect you to salute me.

Also, bite me, I'm eating a Peanut Slab.


Right now.

Damn its goooooood

So spake the homegrown Kiwibiker derivative of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law">Godwin's law</a>.

The longer a discussion goes on, the more likely the Labour gubbermint or 'Uncle Helen' are invoked and blamed...

*Disclaimer - not saying I love the Labour gubbermint - I just grow tired of the simplistic all-too-easy blaming - are we really that intellectually weak?*


----------------------------------------

Back on topic - of course pragmatism should come into it, if, hypothetically, a person can really only afford an open-face AND gloves rather than a full face, common sense says do it.

HOWEVER - with the abundance of reasonably priced full face helmets available (many cheaper than a 'bling' open face no doubt), and the facts relating to facial and dental injury presented to the prosepctive helmet buyer, it surprises me anyone would plumb for an open face. Personally, I'd rather have a scooter/bike crash 5 minutes from home in town in a cheap full face than a gold-plated, bluetooth-satnav-espresso-brewing open face helmet any day.

Most people selling bike safety gear will have tricks to convince those desiring to eschew a critical piece of gear to see sense - some I've heard:

An offer to a prospective gloveless rider to reach out a car door and touch the tarmac at 30km/hr.

A sugggestion to a person seeing to only buy a helmet to run full tilt into a concrete wall (maybe 25km/hr for an average person).

"No. it'll hurt!" - exactly...

Who knows what dire analogy one could come up with to sell a full face over an open face...

(Not getting at you D, I'm scientifically and semi-legally trained - so I like empirical study data AND analogies)

Remember too - we get to pay for the dental and pastic surgery work of people's personal choices via ACC. Personal choice should be tempered with accurate info and a broader view of the issue.

As you were...

[The Stranger]

I recommended that she should budget in 1000-1500 for a scooter and roughly 600 dollars for a jacket, gloves, helmet and draggin jeans *along with words of caution that sturdy boots are a good idea, not including high heels which is not a good idea*.

All fine until a colleague stated never...NEVER buy an open face helmet, if you ever want to have a face. T


*now I say club as I got a pretty unanimous picture that all there hated open face helmets bar me*


So what exactly is the point of your post?

You appear to be of the opinion that safety is important - provided it is your idea of safety and no one elses.

[jrandom]

I would like to stipulate at this point that I know everything, and that everybody else is an idiot.

Assuming you can all agree on that, I figure we can settle these questions without further ado.

:)

[Coyote]

One fine day on my bicycle, a friend of mine decided to ram me off of it with his bike. I hit the ground face first. One of my buck teeth is now chipped in half. Whenever I drink something cold, it hurts. And I can't bite into things since the cap is only 30% as strong as a normal tooth. If I get a proper one it'll most likely cost several grand.

I was a 11 year old on a BMX so I couldn't have been travelling fast.

[NordieBoy]

I was a 11 year old on a BMX so I couldn't have been travelling fast.

The amount of times we arsed off our bikes as kids you'd wonder how we're still alive.

Pulling 35kph (new speedo :D) down a sand road and jamming on the front brakes to see what would happen :doh:

[ital916]

The point of the post was to raise discussion about how the club and people go about discussing the certain aspects of the motorcycling culture whilst trying to introduce new people to the hobby. I was advocating that given the realities of biking, which is that it is a dangerous hobby, the customer should make their own decision. The reason I was annoyed was this wasn't given discussion but more a "you shouldn't wear open face helmets because you WILL DIE" approach by some people. I'm an advocate of safety when it comes to motorcycling but will draw the line and once informed let the customer make up their own mind instead of barreling in and making accusations about products that I have neither tested nor know much about. Two classic quotes thrown at me were "it doesn't matter that you work at a motorcycling store dushy, you probably don't know much about the products you sell" - Yeah right, have a think about that one mate. And when jesting back at someone who poked fun at my crashes that they were riding out of the conditions *who currently wears a cast....piratejafa this is you!*, was told "mate I was going at a hundred in a hundred zone", Haha mate, most of the open road is a hundred zone, you still get corners that you can't take at a hundred kilometers per hour. This raised the question that maybe we as a club should start reasoning sensibly when trying to open up the joys of the two wheeled world to new people. This is not a bashful thread, but one encouraging discussion from the club, a serious discussion for once.

[BANZAI]

The point of the post was to raise discussion about how the club and people go about discussing the certain aspects of the motorcycling culture whilst trying to introduce new people to the hobby.
I was advocating that given the realities of biking, which is that it is a dangerous hobby, the customer should make their own decision.

The reason I was annoyed was this wasn't given discussion but more a "you shouldn't wear open face helmets because you WILL DIE" approach by some people.

I'm an advocate of safety when it comes to motorcycling but will draw the line and once informed let the customer make up their own mind instead of barreling in and making accusations about products that I have neither tested nor know much about.

Two classic quotes thrown at me were "it doesn't matter that you work at a motorcycling store dushy, you probably don't know much about the products you sell" - Yeah right, have a think about that one mate.

And when jesting back at someone who poked fun at my crashes that they were riding out of the conditions *who currently wears a cast....piratejafa this is you!*, was told "mate I was going at a hundred in a hundred zone", Haha mate, most of the open road is a hundred zone, you still get corners that you can't take at a hundred kilometers per hour.

This raised the question that maybe we as a club should start reasoning sensibly when trying to open up the joys of the two wheeled world to new people.

This is not a bashful thread, but one encouraging discussion from the club, a serious discussion for once.

Sorry Dushy, I had to do this... Had to do this :bleh:

[RDJ]

Yer faggots the bane of destruction of the pillars of common sense.....really disgusts me...

God gave me free will. Who are you to take it away?

I think they think they're God...

[Ragingrob]

As far as I know, a couple of people expressed their opinions in that open-faced helmets are dangerous and unsafe, these may or may not be the general opinion of the club as a whole. You have expressed your opinion that people should be able to make their own choice. Those are two opinions that the individuals are entitled to.

I would rather newcomers to the club/biking know extremist opinions in terms of safety in order for them to then make their own mind up, otherwise what do they have to go on??

In terms of open-faced helmets, I don't think that I would need to test one or search for more information in order to come to the conclusion that common sense brings me to, the fact that of course they are not going to protect you much (if at all?!?!) if you bin face first. Which is more common than maybe the average person would think. Still... Some kinda helmet is better than nothing, and maybe even better than wearing an already binned helmet? So that's my opinion, and I would gladly try and steer someone away from buying an open-faced helmet.

PS : Some people think that perhaps the sexist jokes and attitudes of some in the club would contribute a great deal more to girls being put off than being told that an open-faced helmet is dangerous.

[PirateJafa]

:crybaby:

*remark at me*

Hey Dushy, if you weren't so busy taking umbrage at the time you would have noticed I was joking when I made that remark. I was indeed going too fast for the conditions that time, as I have readily pointed out myself a number of times. Just as you have done the same. Your point is what exactly? Mmmmm? :)

More valid however was my argument when I pointed out that had I been wearing a open-face helmet when I crashed, I would be severely fucked up at the moment, as opposed to slightly fucked up.

Oh and I was even wearing jeans, and grazed my knee because of that. Oh woe is meee!

I would far rather be wearing a fullface + jeans than openface + cordura pants. Scarring to the legs is far better than scarring to the face. Of course that is only my opinion, but I will readily give that opinion to anyone who asks my advice. Other people may have different opinions, and that is all well and good. But they're wrong. ;)

[Hanne]

Other people may have different opinions, and that is all well and good. But they're wrong. ;)

That seems to summarise the sentiment this whole thread is based on!

[ital916]

So that's my opinion, and I would gladly try and steer someone away from buying an open-faced helmet.

PS : Some people think that perhaps the sexist jokes and attitudes of some in the club would contribute a great deal more to girls being put off than being told that an open-faced helmet is dangerous.

Because wearing an open face helmet is like wearing a paper airplane on your head. A few open face helmets are bad, but the brands that produce them are of lower quality too, I will happily state that to someone, but not try and steer them they can steer themselves. I will give opinions, but not force them. God gave us free will, let people use it. Some open face helmets are bloody fantastic, they have better protection than some full face helmets in the SAME AREAS THAT ARE COVERED. They are just without the chin guard. If your logic applies, 200mph bikes will MAKE YOU DIE. haha

[Squiggles]

I would suggest that this is not the appropriate forum for the discussion of "the image the club wishes to portray", and that it should infact be discussed at say, the friday night chiller, or the agm if one is called.
A forum thread does little but create a bunch of arguments and misunderstandings, a serious discussion takes place in person.

[ital916]

That seems to summarise the sentiment this whole thread is based on!

I'll talk on this thread more tomorrow at the chiller. Your opinion was stop stirring shit up to me, when I was the one being stirred up haha.

[Ragingrob]

1)Because wearing an open face helmet is like wearing a paper airplane on your head. 2)A few open face helmets are bad, but the brands that produce them are of lower quality too, I will happily state that to someone, but not try and steer them they can steer themselves.3) I will give opinions, but not force them. God gave us free will, let people use it.4) Some open face helmets are bloody fantastic, they have better protection than some full face helmets in the SAME AREAS THAT ARE COVERED. 5)They are just without the chin guard. 6)If your logic applies, 200mph bikes will MAKE YOU DIE. haha

1) I dont get the paper airplane thing?
2) I'm not saying the helmets are bad, merely that they don't protect your face, and I like my face.
3) This thread is about you trying to force others to reserve their opinions.
4) Of course they could have the same protection where they protect, who here has disputed that?! That's not what we care about, again I like my face.
5) Exactly.
6) I said open-faced helmets are dangerous, and yes, 200mph bikes are dangerous. That was the logic I applied.

[Squiggles]

I'll talk on this thread more tomorrow at the chiller. Your opinion was stop stirring shit up to me, when I was the one being stirred up haha.

*Steps out of role as president*

You will talk about this? or tell us?

*Steps back into role* :lol:

[ital916]

I would suggest that this is not the appropriate forum for the discussion of "the image the club wishes to portray", and that it should infact be discussed at say, the friday night chiller, or the agm if one is called.
A forum thread does little but create a bunch of arguments and misunderstandings, a serious discussion takes place in person.

I agree, I shall be voicing my opinion tomorrow and I hope the club voices it's opinons backs and we can discuss and be merry, without too many people putting up their fisticuffs.

[Sofa]

The only thing I'd like to say is that there were only, what, three people discussing/arguing on this topic yesterday. And it was all actually quite funny to see you guys so worked up, when it is all just about personal opinion. Anyway, I think its unfair to bring the whole club into this :) However, I guess its important for us to all know what's going on before we all turn up at the chiller and... er.... :sweatdrop:dodge:

[ital916]

1) I dont get the paper airplane thing?
2) I'm not saying the helmets are bad, merely that they don't protect your face, and I like my face.
3) This thread is about you trying to force others to reserve their opinions.
4) Of course they could have the same protection where they protect, who here has disputed that?! That's not what we care about, again I like my face.
5) Exactly.
6) I said open-faced helmets are dangerous, and yes, 200mph bikes are dangerous. That was the logic I applied.

Gah everything can be twisted on the forums, we willtalk tomorrow at the chiller. Where eye to eye stuff can be discussed. Have a goodnight all.

[Ragingrob]

I agree, I shall be voicing my opinion tomorrow and I hope the club voices it's opinons backs and we can discuss and be merry, without too many people putting up their fisticuffs.

I just don't get it. You're opinion so far has been to let people make up their own mind, based on what people tell them and facts etc right? But all this ruckus is based on the fact that someone gave some person an opinion that you didn't like?

What opinion do you need to voice tomorrow? Opinions on open-faced helmets?! Or opinions on what opinions others are allowed to share?!

[ital916]

The only thing I'd like to say is that there were only, what, three people discussing/arguing on this topic yesterday. And it was all actually quite funny to see you guys so worked up, when it is all just about personal opinion. Anyway, I think its unfair to bring the whole club into this :) However, I guess its important for us to all know what's going on before we all turn up at the chiller and... er.... :sweatdrop:dodge:

I believe the club never really discusses or argues in great numbers, just the merry few that tend to get worked up over stuff, the rest stand and laugh and poke fun and throw things. I really hope tomorrow at the chiller the club, and by club I mean more than the three or four that usually turn up can sit and have a good debate. A club is a grouping of people where opinions can and will differ, lets talk about it, instead of the usual smack talk that flies around at chillers haha.

[ital916]

I just don't get it. You're opinion so far has been to let people make up their own mind, based on what people tell them and facts etc right? But all this ruckus is based on the fact that someone gave some person an opinion that you didn't like?

What opinion do you need to voice tomorrow? Opinions on open-faced helmets?! Or opinions on what opinions others are allowed to share?!
whoops I'll be continuing the open face discussion and also the lets not bash products line too. Now I'm tired and going to bed, it's been a long day and my posts are becoming distorted with every passing minute goodnight.

[mstriumph]

Silk scarf. Toasty warm. Much warmer than a full face with the visor closed. And no fogging problems.

got a mate who complains you can't buy those over here anymore ..... got a website link i can pass on to him?

[Ragingrob]

whoops I'll be continuing the open face discussion and also the lets not bash products line too. Now I'm tired and going to bed, it's been a long day and my posts are becoming distorted with every passing minute goodnight.

As a consumer we have a right to know and I for one love to know which products are good and which are bad, especially when it's regarding something as serious as a helmet! Is the world turning into Ebay, where one can not post negative feedback anymore?! WTF?!

[Squiggles]

Time to bust out my ACME Chairperson's hammer eh?

Andrew, fetch me the westie spanner.

[Ragingrob]

Time to bust out my ACME Chairperson's hammer eh?

Andrew, fetch me the westie spanner.

Where is that guy anyway? :pinch:

:dodge:

[CookMySock]

What you are doing is a good thing, but, to be blunt, if you were really interested in getting people to join up, you, and they, would be better served keeping your opinions to yourself, and leaving people to do their own thing. Ladies don't want to listen to some bloke who they don't want to fuck, talk about his favourite topic - unlikely they will return, or join your club either.

Let the chix do this type of job, or keep your gob closed. Sorry, but you need to hear this.

DB

[Ragingrob]

What you are doing is a good thing, but, to be blunt, if you were really interested in getting people to join up, you, and they, would be better served keeping your opinions to yourself, and leaving people to do their own thing. Ladies don't want to listen to some bloke who they don't want to fuck, talk about his favourite topic - unlikely they will return, or join your club either.

Let the chix do this type of job, or keep your gob closed. Sorry, but you need to hear this.

DB

And that's your opinion... That ladies don't wanna listen to guys talk about their favourite topic unless they also wanna fuck them... It's people like you that put the girls off joining our club!

Newcomers come along to our stand because they're interested in finding out info and opinions regarding gear, and people give their opinions, don't see what's so bad about that.

Lastly, if there were "chix" to do the job, we wouldn't be having a sign up stand at womansfest to try and arouse some interest in females who ride, due to a lack of girls in the club.

[GaZBur]

Its probably not a good idea to give worst case scenarios to someone only considering buying a scooter as you don't want to scare them off, having said that I do like full face helmets! Why, because one day I looked up (actually down) to see what I was about to land on - flying upside down into the Parramatta harbour and got smacked in the face with pointed rock breakwater. Hit just above my right eye and went down my face. I was wearing a full face with a domed down visor as they were back then, the visor was slashed open not my head. Managed to even ride myself to hospital that time although i didn't know i was concussed at the time. Had I been wearing and open face then it maybe would have cost me half my face and definately an eye.

[motorbyclist]

i'll post an opinion/my side of the story when i have time to read this thread. gist was i disagree with downplaying the danger of open face helmets to new riders, especially when one is a new rider themselves just repeating info they were told in order to sell said helmets - imo "not as much damage as people make out" is significantly worse than damage in only rare and extreme occasions, and i'll explain why i'm not a hypocrite later


in summary, without even reading his first post or any other post in this thread as of yet, a 6 month old rider and new gear salesman who has an ego as large as mine may be a bit angry over my ability to gloat my victory which he refuses to concede :bleh:

good to see the issues being debated though

[ital916]

i'll post an opinion/my side of the story when i have time to read this thread. gist was i disagree with downplaying the danger of open face helmets to new riders, especially when one is a new rider themselves just repeating info they were told in order to sell said helmets - imo "not as much damage as people make out" is significantly worse than damage in only rare and extreme occasions, and i'll explain why i'm not a hypocrite later


in summary, without even reading his first post or any other post in this thread as of yet, a 6 month old rider and new gear salesman who has an ego as large as mine may be a bit angry over my ability to gloat my victory which he refuses to concede :bleh:

good to see the issues being debated though

I have been riding six months andrew, that doesn't mean my opinons or arguing ability is less than yours, listen to your elders! Yes I do work at a motorcycle store, but that gives a second view and insights into products, I have become not only more involved in learning more about the motorcycling gear world, but have heard lots of opinons from riders vastly more experienced than you. I am just using critical thinking where I keep an open mind. I didn't downplay the danger but you didn't just overblow it, you made it seem that if you wore an open face you would die. Problem there, we can say to the public, look you might lose your face, it's a danger but the helmets themselves apart from the fact they have no chin or visor area are still good quality and will protect your head *the good quality open face helmets here*, I believe we cannot and should not say don't buy it cos it won't do shit all, that is slandering something you don't know or just have a friend of a friends story about. Like I said motorcycling is about personal choice, what we said to that girl wasn't personal choice, we were blatantly telling her some products were crap and useless when they were not. This relates to the image of the club as well, but i'll specualate on this tonight. Get it, so this thread is on open face helmets, but also more on how we should go about giving our opinion. I gave mine in a nice manner, I didn't come barreling in blurting out crap about products again that you have never even tried on. The point of this thread was not only discussion on open face helmets, but how the club should give it's opinons to the public, not on who's opinion is right. Get it. Now andrew I know your a smart guy, start using some of the engineering logic and calm we have been taught to reason with, not just pulling childish remarks and jokes.

[CookMySock]

Newcomers come along to our stand because they're interested in finding out info and opinions regarding gear, and people give their opinions, don't see what's so bad about that.Do they ? How do you know this ? You sure don't like my opinion, probably because it differs to yours. Why are they any different ?


Lastly, if there were "chix" to do the job, we wouldn't be having a sign up stand at womansfest to try and arouse some interest in females who ride, due to a lack of girls in the club.Ask yourself why there are no chix ? Sharpen up, guys. You are smarter than this.

DB

[BiK3RChiK]

:blink: Why the hell would chicks want to join a club where the guys seem so ready to argue over stuff like this? and at a stand advertising the club too! Bor-ing! :yawn::yawn: Next?

[Ragingrob]

Do they ? How do you know this ? You sure don't like my opinion, probably because it differs to yours. Why are they any different ?

Ask yourself why there are no chix ? Sharpen up, guys. You are smarter than this.

DB

Hmmm let me see, when a newcomers comes up to the stand and has a query about some gear, I'd say that they probably came up to the stand with a query about some gear . Makes sense don't it?

I don't like your opinion because I don't believe that girls will wanna talk to a guy only if they also wants to fuck them. Because, you're obviously incorrect.

Who said there are no chicks? I said there may be a lack of the such, but not zero. And I'm sure I know of several reasons there being few girls thank you very much.

[CookMySock]

Blah blah blah blah, talk talk talk talk, blah-blah blah? blah-blah-blah blah blah-blah??

You want chix ? STFU.
DB

[Ragingrob]

:blink: Why the hell would chicks want to join a club where the guys seem so ready to argue over stuff like this? and at a stand advertising the club too! Bor-ing! :yawn::yawn: Next?

Two, or maybe three guys had a personal argument at a sign-up stand where some of the others at the stand didn't even hear a word of it. I hardly believe that this would put girls off joining the club.

Would it not be more boring if noone gave their personal opinion when a girls inquires about helmets? "Oh yes, well it's up to you what helmet you want, go for gold :niceone:"

[Ragingrob]

Blah blah blah blah, talk talk talk talk, blah-blah blah? blah-blah-blah blah blah-blah??

You want chix ? STFU.
DB

Actually I don't really care about having more chicks in the club, if they wanna join great, if they don't who cares it's not my place to dispute their choice.

I mean, if they only talk to me because they also wanna fuck me, then fuck me I'm in trouble with my girl!

[The Stranger]

you probably don't know much about the products you sell" - Yeah right, have a think about that one mate.



It always makes me laugh to see a motorcyclist trying to make motorcyclists conform. Give up, it's like hearding cats, it aint going to happen.


So did you tried a 50kph face plant in both helmets?
Photos please.

[Sofa]

I have been riding six months andrew, that doesn't mean my opinons or arguing ability is less than yours, listen to your elders! Yes I do work at a motorcycle store, but that gives a second view and insights into products, I have become not only more involved in learning more about the motorcycling gear world, but have heard lots of opinons from riders vastly more experienced than you. I am just using critical thinking where I keep an open mind. I didn't downplay the danger but you didn't just overblow it, you made it seem that if you wore an open face you would die. Problem there, we can say to the public, look you might lose your face, it's a danger but the helmets themselves apart from the fact they have no chin or visor area are still good quality and will protect your head *the good quality open face helmets here*, I believe we cannot and should not say don't buy it cos it won't do shit all, that is slandering something you don't know or just have a friend of a friends story about. Like I said motorcycling is about personal choice, what we said to that girl wasn't personal choice, we were blatantly telling her some products were crap and useless when they were not. This relates to the image of the club as well, but i'll specualate on this tonight. Get it, so this thread is on open face helmets, but also more on how we should go about giving our opinion. I gave mine in a nice manner, I didn't come barreling in blurting out crap about products again that you have never even tried on. The point of this thread was not only discussion on open face helmets, but how the club should give it's opinons to the public, not on who's opinion is right. Get it. Now andrew I know your a smart guy, start using some of the engineering logic and calm we have been taught to reason with, not just pulling childish remarks and jokes.

This has nothing to do with the image of the rest of the club members, the only reason we're now involved is because you decided to start this thread. Don't bring the rest of us into it just because two club members (and I quote, with egos as big as Andrew's:yes:) decided to discuss their personal opinions in a distasteful manner and an unsuitable situation.:argue:

I think that just because your work colleagues are (in your opinion) more experienced riders than Andrew, it doesn't mean that you know more about safety of gear etc. Also it doesn't mean that Andrew's opinion is any less valid. It is a possibility that he has found out his information by talking to more experienced riders, other sources etc as well. From there he's probably formed an informed opinion.:gob:

It seems like you're saying that everyone should be entitled to their opinion and everything is personal choice. I'm sure what happened when this girl arrived at the stand (I wasn't there at the time, so cant be positive) is that you both gave your opinion and then one of you decided to start an argument, right? It is BOTH of your faults (and anyone else who was involved) that the argument started on Wednesday.

But it is your fault and yours alone, that the argument has continued here and will be continuing tonight, where innocent club members (those who weren't arguing on Wednesday) will be forced to try and avoid argument and keep the peace. :sweatdrop

Or if it gets to be too much, we may just all have to leave...:chase::scooter:

[Chrislost]

:zzzz:
lets go for a ride.
can test some waterproof gears and perhaps a lid or 3:Punk:

[klyong82]

:zzzz:
lets go for a ride.
can test some waterproof gears and perhaps a lid or 3:Punk:

Chris has a good suggestion. Lets all go for a ride and forget all this ... I am just afraid at Strata after a few bottles of beer it's gonna become a nasty circus.....

[CookMySock]

Actually I don't really care about having more chicks in the club, if they wanna join great, if they don't who cares it's not my place to dispute their choice.What were you doing on that stand then ? Fronting your own opinion ?

If you want to spook all the chix off, then thats cool. Us filthy old(er!) bastards will pick up your slack (pic in my profile, ok miss?). We are overworked already, but we can slip another one in ;)

DB
p.s. eee-oops! scuse my freudian slip, oh dear I'm sprung!

[Ragingrob]

What were you doing on that stand then ? Fronting your own opinion ?

If you want to spook all the chix off, then thats cool. Us filthy old(er!) bastards will pick up your slack (pic in my profile, ok miss?). We are overworked already, but we can slip another one in ;)

DB
p.s. eee-oops! scuse my freudian slip, oh dear I'm sprung!

Want me to fill you in on a little secret? I wasn't at the stand :yes:. Therefore no opinions were fronted by moi :yes:. And I have my own girl :yes:. And she's a member of the club :yes:.

:Oops: That was four secrets.

:bye:

[ital916]

I think that just because your work colleagues are (in your opinion) more experienced riders than Andrew, it doesn't mean that you know more about safety of gear etc. Also it doesn't mean that Andrew's opinion is any less valid.

Funny because that logic was used only moments agonon me by andrew, stating that my ego and riding experience and job position make my opinons wrong. I'm not starting a fight sophie, at strata i'm not going to be shouting and ranting and raving. It's funny if you acutally try to get the club talking about things that are club related *yes clubs have rules, and codes of behaviour*, then everyone gets up in arms. If you feel intimidated or annoyed then i'm sorry sophie, I'm not getting angry at anyone, and definately not you. If you do decide to piss off tonight for whatever reason though, I won't be crying a river over it *though I do enjoy your company*. Fini.:hug:

[Macstar]

Crickey! I took a week off KB and have made my way through this thread. Two things:

1. Exams are on their way for uni students...
2. Dush - it's been too long since your last ride

I reckon there's a bit of misguided stress-for-passion in this thread - but that's just my opinion!

[Hanne]

I'll talk on this thread more tomorrow at the chiller. Your opinion was stop stirring shit up to me, when I was the one being stirred up haha.

What I said was that it was an overreaction to start talking about company reps coming down to the quad and suing people because they didn't like what was being said.

[Squiggles]

I reckon there's a bit of misguided stress-for-passion in this thread - but that's just my opinion!

I reckon this is all your fault for buying a honda :lol: :jerry:

[Macstar]

I reckon this is all your fault for buying a honda :lol: :jerry:

Shucks! Had I known....

[Squiggles]

Shucks! Had I known....

exactly, this event may have set off a chain of events... leading to the apocalypse!!!

[klyong82]

exactly, this event may have set off a chain of events... leading to the apocalypse!!!

:corn::corn::corn::corn: fun and games people!!

[CookMySock]

Want me to fill you in on a little secret? I wasn't at the standGood. Why then are YOU arguing with me ? My comments were directed at those blokes who etc etc re-read ^ .

DB

[shingo]

Good. Why then are YOU arguing with me ? My comments were directed at those blokes who etc etc re-read ^ .

DB

Probably for the same reason you argue with people, just to get a rise out of them.

[Chrislost]

What I said was that it was an overreaction to start talking about company reps coming down to the quad and suing people because they didn't like what was being said.

uhhh.
your taking the piss right??
"company reps coming down to the quad and suing people"

did somebody say that? :lol:
:2thumbsup

[FROSTY]

I think its important to look at who you are talking with when discussing open face lids/gloves etc.
For a young lady the possible (perceived) concequence of a face plant and grinding her nose off on the concrete may (should) have more effect that telling her to wear stout shoes and good gloves.
Its the old story its not what ya say its how ya say it

[NordieBoy]

"Now miss, put this full face helmet on and I'll hit you in the face with this 4x2"
Thud!
"Now that wasn't too bad was it? Now we'll try it with the open face..."
Hello!
Where did she go?

[ital916]

uhhh.
your taking the piss right??
"company reps coming down to the quad and suing people"

did somebody say that? :lol:
:2thumbsup

I was taking the piss when I made that comment but hanne seems to have taken it seriously haha.

[boomer]

Yer faggots the bane of destruction of the pillars of common sense.....really disgusts me...

Take a look at this List A of hypothetical chronological situations:
- acknowledgement: Be careful, scooters/mopeds are motorcycle and there are risks
- advice: Budget $xxx for jackets, gloves, helmets, etc
- warning: Open face helmets are dangerous
- imposition: Don't buy open face helmets
- prohibition: Those who are not wearing full face helmets should be banned
- outrageous: motorcycling is too dangerous and should be banned

Or this List B of hypothetical chronological situations:
- acknowledgement: there are health risk in increased sugar intake
- advice: it is advisable to control your sugar intake by staying away from certain food
- warning: sweet candies and chocolate bars carry high percentage of sugar
- imposition: We should control sweet food sales
- prohibition: selling sweet food around schools should not be allowed
- outrageous: we should make laws to tell people what they can and cannot eat for their own sakes.

Similar process...I hope none of youse ever have powers to make changes in the society because I for sure still want to decide for my own fate.
God gave me free will. Who are you to take it away?

im hearing that!


Who is this group of people giving there opinions as advice!???


IDJIOTS !

[EJK]

No harm Dush, but.... You are kinda sounding like skiddy tbh...

[ital916]

im hearing that!


Who is this group of people giving there opinions as advice!???


IDJIOTS !

Well marmoot fucking summed it up innit, this is what I was saying, who are we as the people at the stand to tell "newbies" what and what not to buy, once the risks and pros and cons of the products are told to people let them make up their own mind. Free will, let people use it, I think it's stupid how the ideas about open face helmets were told to people. If the girl knows the risks but still loves open face helmets, then that is her choice! *not any girl in particular just an example*. EJ you've gone from adding constructive criticism to just back seat heckling.

*comment removed due to the probability of pissing everyone off*. The idead is that we neither should have or can impose our opinons on the choices given to motorcylists. We can say hey I don't like it but you know the risks go for gold. Not I don't like it, it sucks, It will kill you, I know this cos a friend of a friend died,therefore if you wear one you will die.

[Squiggles]

Even at the friday night chiller, I got screamed at again cos the club in it's infinite bloody wisdom as knowers of everything motorcycling good or bad couldn't see around the bloody open face helmet example used in the thread.

That whole post is so sad its not even funny :finger:

[The Stranger]

Well marmoot fucking summed it up innit, this is what I was saying, who are we as the people at the stand to tell "newbies" what and what not to buy,


once the risks and pros and cons of the products are told to people let them make up their own mind.

Who are we? The voice of experience, that's who. Who better for a noob to listen to?

You're confusing the 2 issues.
Did anyone force her to buy a full face helmet?
Or did they very strongly recommend it?
If she was forced to buy the full face helmet then I am right there with you.

You guys were not a sales situation, there was no need to hold back the truth, let her know straight.
I bought an open face helmet for pillion use, then saw a photo of a person with no bottom jaw. Needless to say it's never been used on a bike, I wouldn't wear it and as such wouldn't let a pillion on one of my bikes with one on.
Had the salesman been straight up with me, I would have preferred this and wouldn't have bought it.

Do you have your salesman hat on per chance?

[The Stranger]

Well marmoot fucking summed it up innit,

Well he did sum it up, but missed another point.
ACC have a stated position of pricing motorcycles off the road.
Our resistrations are higher for that reason.
We are one of the only classifications where the no blame policy has been waived, again, to help them meet that end.
So far we have been lucky, however, the higher the safety standards, the lower the cost to ACC the better the chance of keeping motorcycles on the road.

[ital916]

That whole post is so sad its not even funny :finger:

:woohoo: finally an emotional response, for a second there I thought you were an android sent from the future to diss hondas. Nwo why don't you take that finger of your and stick it in yourself and make your self happy. I didn't mean that post to be angry, but communicating via posts can confuse emtions. I'm going to agree to disagree and let this thread die, the last thing I want is to make enemies of the good friends I have made in the club. :grouphug:. Lets do something communally friendly, like diss hondas.

[Sofa]

:woohoo: finally an emotional response, for a second there I thought you were an android sent from the future to diss hondas. Nwo why don't you take that finger of your and stick it in yourself and make your self happy. I didn't mean that post to be angry, but communicating via posts can confuse emtions. I'm going to agree to disagree and let this thread die, the last thing I want is to make enemies of the good friends I have made in the club. :grouphug:. Lets do something communally friendly, like diss hondas.

I thought last night everyone pretty much agreed to disagree at the chiller...? No one was screaming at you. Kyle clearly stated that he was just telling a story and you went off your rocket at him. This whole thing was just between you and Andrew, face to face, and now you're trying to let something die that should never even have been created and that should never have involved anyone else in the club.

Stephen had every right to say what he said, you musn't have been trying very hard to make it not sound angry.

Rob and Soph

You seem full of opinions but don't seem to be able to accept anyone else's...

:sunny:

[EJK]

Hey Dush, it's not only me who think this thread is a bit self opinionated tbh lol

Well, I can't say more cause I wasn't there last night...

So I'm out ;)

[ital916]

I thought last night everyone pretty much agreed to disagree at the chiller...? No one was screaming at you. Kyle clearly stated that he was just telling a story and you went off your rocket at him. This whole thing was just between you and Andrew, face to face, and now you're trying to let something die that should never even have been created and that should never have involved anyone else in the club.

Stephen had every right to say what he said, you musn't have been trying very hard to make it not sound angry.

Rob and Soph

You seem full of opinions but don't seem to be able to accept anyone else's...

:sunny:

:chase::chase::chase::chase:, yeah sorry guys, that post was kinda angry sounding but wasn't meant as angry. I'm gonna jet for a while and lay low with brick. *he's still laying low from stabbing that guy with the trident*.

[Phurrball]

D man, I hate to say it, but you're guilty of being the author of your own misfortune by creating this thread.

You're passion, while commendable, comes through in a way that seems a little raw and untempered and paints you into an uncomfortable corner, and ya can't seem to put the brush down...

Remember that the vocal and behavioural conversational cues that humans have evolved with over millenia of F2F conversation won't come through in cyberspace text - you're communicating in a forum that almost guarantees misunderstanding for that reason (and it does not allow for quick, easy clarification).

Bear that in mind and you might be a little less troubled by the responses you get.

[HungusMaximist]

Haven't got the time to read the thread but whatever it is, we forgive you Dushy.

It's characters like yourself that gives our club that 'edge' factor... :msn-wink:

[Metalor]

Awwww.. are you guys fighting and making up? How cute!

[motorbyclist]

Time to bust out my ACME Chairperson's hammer eh?

Andrew, fetch me the westie spanner.


Where is that guy anyway? :pinch:

:dodge:

sorry guys, just had a week of tests and assignments with little or no time for sleep, let alone KB


I'm going to agree to disagree and let this thread die,

but i only just got to read the thread!

oh and i thought you wanted to discuss it at the chiller (which i didn't until after reading this thread), but now your removed post seems to show you changed your mind on that one when everyone disagreed with you... nice...

prepare for a well contructed argument to back up my claims, along with my side of the sign-up stand story and my "experience argument"

[Ragingrob]

:corn::corn::corn:

Now that the rugby's finished, back to the Bold and the KBeautiful.

:corn::corn::corn:

[skidMark]

:corn: :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn:

[motorbyclist]

so at the stand, dushi (drider), myself (andrew), and david (piratejafa), were all standing around talking the usual shit when a girl *omg shock horror - get in there dushi!* came up and asked if she could join if she didn't have a bike

of course this is fine we tell her, she then asks how much a scooter is likely to cost, and we give the usual response of a few hundy for a chinese one that will last a few weeks tops or over a grand for something that won't depreciate too bad and isn't likely to have the brakes fall off

next is which is safer, which again got the (my) standard response of "you hit the road at 50kph or 100kph and it doesn't matter what you're riding: it'll likely still hurt - but the bike is more stable and has better brakes so i'd say the bike is a better preventative safety measure, but it does cost more and a scooter isn't going to get to 100kph very often

then there was gear....

dushi began his usual rhetoric about atgatt and i left him to it and continued talking shit with david until i heard speak of open face helmets being considered an option.

at this point i jumped in, like the dick i can be, and busted out the "don't buy an open face helmet" story, using lines such as "why buy half a helmet?", would you run into a brick wall (or the side of a 4wd) wearing one?" to help her understand what i'm talking about. then used anecdotal evidence of some of the full face helmets i've seen where the rider has slid on their face, grinding off the jaw guard, which would have otherwise been their face. dushi disagrees, saying the "they aren't as bad as people think and you make out! *insert brand here* helmets are very well built blah blah blah, and you wear jeans and sneakers to uni!". i come back with "but you'e a safety nut advocating open face helmets, wtf, and 'less damage than i make out' is far worse than no damage at all. i value my face much more than my legs, as much as i do like eating through a straw while running"

words were exchanged, girl looked on in horror and bemusement at the two arm waving engineers having a right go at each other over the two helmets. hanne had the common sense to get her to sign up before she got scared off as we had clearly forgotten about her. i started being a prick seeing as i am right, high fived david after using dushi to prove dushi wrong (which he won't admit) and then dushi stole my bike's seat and buggered off somewhere to sulk

no-one post until i'm finished plz

[motorbyclist]

now first off, don't get me wrong - this is just my opinion and my reasoning behind it. i do realise how may of you seem to overreact to expressed opinions as people trying to somehow impose restrictions on others.

i don't take any advice nor answers without first considering them to see if the make sense, and check for actual evidence for and against that advice. as such consider this my justification for my opinion, not an attempt to force anyone to wear only a full face helmet and nothing less.


first of all, why an open face helmet can be considered a better purchase:

you can have better access to your face for conversation
you can have better access to your face for food
you can have better access to your face for cameras
they suit the harley/scooter rider uniform/fashion
fogging free


now, i call all of these shit reasons as a helmet is primarily for safety, and fashion is the slackest excuse for anything - form should follow function, not the other way around, and i personally think a full face is better looking in both cases. looks more badass in matt black, hides an ugly gob, and for girls... well lets just say that i reckon a girl in full riding gear that still shows some form can be just as hot as a miniskirt and extra-low cut top, and leaves alot more to the imagination - i mean, where's the thrill in removing the stuff if you're already seen 98% of her anyway?
fogging up is easily solved by lifting the visor a crack.
face access is solved by taking the goddamn helmet off when you aren't riding; it isn't hard, and you shouldn't be eating while riding anyway

no i'm still not finished

[motorbyclist]

well, lets see


much more complete protection in a crash (see phurrball's post earlier on in this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1584532&postcount=9)and my explanation below)
better protection from bugs, gravel etc, provided the visor is mostly closed - and yes i am aware there are open face ones with full visors
they don't cost anything extra if you're buying a quality helmet
fits the sportsbike uniform/fashion - just like an open face this is a shit reason except sportbikes (naked and faired) are about performance/function, with form/aesthetics a result of that - so the helmet is arguably part of that fashion due to it's being more functional.



now let's think about this. why do we buy a helmet?

for safety for or for looks?

well if you buy one for the for look (ie just to meet the legal requirement), then by all means buy the open face.

but, for a large portion of us, and atleast in the case of this girl asking about safety gear, it is for protection in a crash

so wtf would you only buy half a helmet?

we have very little control over how or when we crash. infact we very often do things that actually make things worse. our best bet is to look at statistics and learn from the mistakes of others and apply our resources as best we can to cover the most likely eventualities.

frankly any argument from dushi about the quality of an open face soup bowl is completely irrelevant. no matter how good the helmet is, if it doesn't cover your face, it ain't going to protect your face. i always assumed them for the sake of this argument to be very good at protecting the rest of your head anyway.

fact is that landing face first, or later sliding onto your face, is a 'more often than uncommon' occurance. your face/front of head is very important. you need it to see, eat, taste, smell, and most importantly (jk) pull in the girls:niceone:. without full control of ones face we can lose our ability to talk unimpaired, to convey emotion, and we all know that people who look weird facially are much more difficult to talk to than say, someone in a wheelchair.

no i'm not done

[skidMark]

:woohoo: finally an emotional response, for a second there I thought you were an android sent from the future to diss hondas. Nwo why don't you take that finger of your and stick it in yourself and make your self happy. I didn't mean that post to be angry, but communicating via posts can confuse emtions. I'm going to agree to disagree and let this thread die, the last thing I want is to make enemies of the good friends I have made in the club. :grouphug:. Lets do something communally friendly, like diss hondas.

After your first post your going to have to do more than that to make right with your minions.

Perhaps a bake sale next week.

Then a sausage sizzle... oh no hang on, thats honda riders only.:eek:

[motorbyclist]

if you manage to crash such that you hurt your face in spite of a full face helmet, you would've been fucked wearing an open face. statistically, and obviously, your less likely to hurt your face in an accident when wearing full face, especially in one in which your face hits an object.

now i do admit to wearing jeans on my 21km, open road to suburb to motorway to city commute through auckland. i am fully aware of the risk i am taking. i am yet to have a commuting accident, and in no way assume it isn't going to happen - BUT, i wear jeans and sneakers as pants/boots are somewhat inconvienient. if it is wet i often will wear full gear as the chances of an accident are much higher - not because i don't want to get wet, my gear isn't entirely waterproof.

i always wear full gear (no back protector due to not owning one) when i go for a ride due to accident risk, or go somewhere where the gear isn't a problem

so how could i possibly argue against an open face helmet?

well for starters, i value my face alot more than my fucking legs and the full face is more practical for my riding.
but more importantly, we were talking to a newbie rider about safety - and i will be the first to advocate safety to newbies as i know they very rarely actually understand the risks involved nor the injuries you incur.

i wear less than atgatt, but ALWAYS have gloves, jacket and helmet, even on my pocket rocket. i know the risks and take my chances fully informed, just as many other riders do.


how am i less of a hypocrite than dushi?

he wears full gear, including back protector, for all of his 5 minute commute, and i commend him for this. i give him shit for being a safety nut but i cannot in any way fault him for doing it. BUT he did tell the girl that she could wear jeans and shoes, just as i do, and then went to say an open face "wasn't that bad"

he also insists banzai buy a new helmet af ter dropping it twice. he's dead right, but somehow this is worse than an open face?

i'm sorry, but in my books this makes no sense. you can't go saying "omg you cant talk about wearing a safer helmet to protect a head because you don't wear atgatt" right after suggesting a girl wear jeans and shoes. you can't also say "i'd be happy to wear that particular open face helmet if i could" and then preach how we should wear atgatt because you'd only be wearing half a fucking helmet

what we wear/do has no bearing on the validity of our arguments anyway.

the fact is, for the gear we wear, for whatever reason, especially if it's for safety, we should wear the gear that does a complete job of it

not finished yet

[motorbyclist]

now here's an interesting one....

i said to dushi that maybe he'd better stfu before he makes more of an ass of himself.

he was arguing using only knowledge from his employer and 6 months of riding, against my 7 years of riding on and off road, plus being from a family of bikers on both sides.

why does this matter? because he doesn't realise that in 7 years i have had many accidents offraod, a few onroad, and plenty of time to receive and review information

nor does he realise that the training he receives at motomail is going to have a large bias to selling the product rather than actually teaching them the whole story of what is/isn't good practice. if the latter was the case they wouldn't even stock draggin jeans nor open face helmets or anything short of full armoured leathers.

it seems that he is just absorbing info and spitting it back out without processing - fanatically atgatt, his own expert on riding, yet only 6 months experience! crashes enough to make me worried, but that is partly due to the bike he was riding, and totally flaunting the whole learner system by going on open road rides, all while still going "atgatt!!!"

i have a stupid suggestion here, but i think dushi would be well served by riding with more minimal gear for a while. the most effective way to learn is from mistakes - the trick is to survive them unscathed. as such i do have him round to ride motocross bikes without any armour in the hope he'll learn how to avoid an crash, how to behave during one, and how to save a bike experiencing a skid.

my thinking being that with some experience as to what crashing unprotected is like, he might come to better appreciate what gear does for us. there's a reason i have had only one actual "crash" on the road (due to sleep) and i managed to avoid injury, and that is because i've had the time to learn how to crash, and thus how not to crash.

fact is, i have ridden in open face helmets before - and the first thing i did after than experience was buy a full face. i was 12 and i was able even then to realise how downright dangerous having your face sticking out was, along with how stupid an offroad trike is. now nearly 20 and still stick by that decision and have only had evidence to support it. family members getting hurt, full face helmets with significant damage to jaw guards, the advice and experience of my elders and all the other bikers i've met, even stuff here on KB.

my point?
if you were truly qualified to be arguing about gear then you wouldn't be arguing in favour of open face helmets

[motorbyclist]

maybe you should pull your head out of your ass and start thinking "what if" and re-consider your arguments:

your argument in favour of open face for safety is unfounded
your argument that you are qualified to argue in favour of open face is questionable
your argument that downplaying the risks (which you seem unaware of) infront of a newbie isn't a downright irresponsible idea is plain ridiculous - let them learn then decide when they can truly make an informed decision, which will be to go full face anyway if it's not driven by fashion reasons.


to be truly safe, one should always assume a worst case scenario. it's what engineers do and what bikers should do. i see you wear atgatt, but claim you will wear an open face helmet. that doesn't add up, which leads me to believe you haven't thought all this through and were simply arguing with me for the sake of not being shot down in your moment of glory infront of the girl.

i didn't want to ruin your moment, but as i said before, it is irresponsible to downplay the risks involved for a new rider, or in my case, to allow another to do so. i would hate to have said nothing and had her killed or maimed as a result - i would rather her take the bus than have an accident in an open face helmet. i'm not saying i'd take the keys off the girl if she bought an open face helmet, but that i'd strongly suggest to her to put it in the bin. i do hope you realise the seriousness of your job as a salesman to new riders. sure atgatt will price them out of bikes, but an open face helmet doesn't come into the price equation

[Sofa]

I'd just like to say, good job Andrew :) that took you ages! Totally worth it though, because your argument is totally valid :) I agree with you :jerry:

Can I just ask if you are going to comment on the other content in this thread? :)

Oh and sorry, didn't realise that you weren't finished :)

[motorbyclist]

ok

*puts flame retardent suit on*

could probably do with some proof reading to check for logical inconsistencies you guys will probably find

flame/post/troll away!

[motorbyclist]

I'd just like to say, good job Andrew :) that took you ages! Totally worth it though, because your argument is totally valid :) I agree with you :jerry:

Can I just ask if you are going to comment on the other content in this thread? :)

Oh and sorry, didn't realise that you weren't finished :)

tsk tsk!

yeah i would comment on the rest of this thread but as i read it people were answering things for me anyway. kinda a good thing i waited this long to post or there wouldn't be ay other posts though... it's funny how logical arguments backed by statistics ends most threads (cheese cutter arguments on non bike forums were my favourite to "ruin" with facts)

i agree with most or all of the comments in favour of full face helmets, especially the first 2 ones speaking from experience.

and phurball's pic with statistics saved me searching my bike pics folder; bling to be awarded once i'm able

EDIT: holy crap that wall of text took me half an hour to type!

[Ragingrob]

Bravo Andrew... Bravo, quite a rebuttal!

One point that I would just like to reiterate for Dushi, it is a point that pissed off me and other club members...

Now, when you have a problem with what someone's said or anything personal at all, DO NOT think that somehow it magically must be the opinion of the entire SMC, especially when it has nothing to do with the SMC at all. DO NOT start bashing the SMC as a whole based on your opinion of what we must all secretly be thinking. DO NOT then bring all this nonsense into the realm of KB, going on about things that you do not have a clue about.

All these things put the SMC in a bad light, when in reality this entire mess comes down to one individual, yourself. You've dragged the club full of innocent people and an online forum into this massive debate, all because you got your panties in a twist.

In all seriousness, I would say that an apology to the people of the club especially, and even also to some people online, would not go astray.

Overall, no hard feelings from me, but just maybe for next time - Think before you Thread.

[Squiggles]

Only reason for my last post was the revival of this thread... i think ill lock this tomorrow

[shingo]

Only reason for my last post was the revival of this thread... i think ill lock this tomorrow

Good call Stephen. I'd say Andrew summed it up pretty well, nothing further really needs to be said.

[motorbyclist]

no, don't lock it! i'm waiting for dushi's rebuttal!

:corn:

[ital916]

I'm not going to say much. As far as open face helmets go, I tell all who I talk to about the risk as they may lose their face, but if thats what they really want and accept the risk so be it. I wear a full face but on some days If I feel like wearing an open face I shall. Now if you don't like open face and have seen your uncle, your uncles uncle, your uncles uncles uncle or even your unborn child from the future getting there nose imploded then that is your view on them you don't have to wear them. The open face helmet was just an example that was used because thats what triggered the argument but it was not the backbone of my point. My point was on free will and opinons, how they collided and how they should be stated. I was trying to use O/F helmets as an example. I'm not going to say anything as It is pointless, I guess everyone who has their view will always fight for it. I concede that talking about this in the club is useless. By the way, I won't ride with minimal gear. I'll see you all later, Stephen lock the thread.

[ital916]

You've dragged the club full of innocent people and an online forum into this massive debate, all because you got your panties in a twist.


It's what happens in a club when a member has a disagreement to voice it. I didn't drag the whole club in, just the regular few who turn up. I've learnt that there's no point in voicing any kind of opinion in the club anymore. As far as an apology goes, I apologised if my posts came across as angry but at no point will you see me apologise for stating and believing in my views.

[Squiggles]

Trying to discuss/debate the issue at the time just eventuated in dushy bashing and a lot of stop stirring up shit. I'm sorry if my opinion didn't gel with that of the clubs but from the sounds of it a lot of club members need to pull their heads out of their asses. I admit I poke fun a lot in good jest but when serious issues arise I deal with it sensibly, a trait I can't see in many members. I don't mean to offend, but if that is how the club wishes to portray itself to the public, then I think the club will just a get a bad rep.


That is where you brought the club into this.

Fini.