ZZR400 cold start clutch issues

[MaxCannon]

Recently picked up a ZZR400
It's in reasonable condition and was very cheap.

One strange issue is that cold starts are impossible unless I pull in the clutch.

I notice that when on the centre stand in neutral blipping the throttle when cold causes the rear wheel to spin, almost as if the bike is in gear.

Could the clutch be dragging in some way (perhaps thick cold oil ?) and having a similar effect as trying to start when in gear.

Starting from cold with the clutch in works a treat, just wondering if a change to thinner oil or a clutch adjustment is in order.

[breakaway]

What oil is it running? What is the status of the clutch springs?

Disclaimer: I have no clue

[MaxCannon]

Oils was just changed by the bike shop
I'd asked for a Semi synth but I don't know if thats what I got.
The invoice said mineral oil but doesn't specify the grade.

This issue wasn't there prior to the change but then again it's been a lot colder recently.

I'm wondering if it's normal for the back wheel to turn when in N on the centre stand.
Don't ever remember it happening on the GN.

[Squiggles]

I'm wondering if it's normal for the back wheel to turn when in N on the centre stand.
Don't ever remember it happening on the GN.

Yep, its normal for it to spin slowly

[MaxCannon]

Yep, its normal for it to spin slowly

Ah - righto then

[CookMySock]

take it back to the workshop and show them what its doing.

Are you starting it in gear ? My bike tows heavily starting in gear with the clutch in. This is hard on the starter.

DB

[xwhatsit]

Wheel will spin slowly in neutral, so that's OK. Is it just a simple case of it being one of those silly bikes with a clutch switch that won't let you start unless you pull it in?

[FROSTY]

heavy oil cold nights. The oil goes like treacle and keeps the clutch sorta engaged when theres no load on.

[xwhatsit]

heavy oil cold nights. The oil goes like treacle and keeps the clutch sorta engaged when theres no load on.
But but but...

I might be really confused here, but should it matter if the bike's in neutral? I mean, the clutch is out anyway. So whether or not the clutch is dragging shouldn't enter into it, right?

I'd understand about clutch drag being a problem if you were trying to start it in-gear, with the clutch in, but we're starting it in neutral with the clutch out.

[MaxCannon]

No clutch safety switch as far as I can see and it's not in gear.
Hot starts aren't a problem

Was a bit worried that the clutch was poked as there is already a big shopping list
Tyres
Brakes
Rear Shock

[FROSTY]

But but but...

I might be really confused here, but should it matter if the bike's in neutral? I mean, the clutch is out anyway. So whether or not the clutch is dragging shouldn't enter into it, right?

I'd understand about clutch drag being a problem if you were trying to start it in-gear, with the clutch in, but we're starting it in neutral with the clutch out.
I was simplifying it --In Neutral or in gear clutch pulled in--same sort of effect. its the oil that causes the drag.

[Max Preload]

Disengaging the clutch with the lever when the engine is cold so the bike will start is simply compensating for the oil viscosity which is causing considerable drag through the gearbox. However this shouldn't be an issue unless it's an extremely thick oil.

Exactly why won't it start cold without the clutch lever in? It won't wind over? Or does it wind over but just won't fire? There should be no appreciable difference between the winding speed of the starter with the clutch engaged or disengaged.

I'd be looking at the battery condition as a first port of call, not oil.

[xwhatsit]

Oh really? How interesting. I've put 20W50 in my bike (mostly an accident) and when it's been overnight in a stone-cold garage it does require a fair bit of kicking and coaxing to get started. Once its warmed up a bit it's normal. I'll try pulling the clutch in and see what happens :D

Cheers.

[MaxCannon]

Exactly why won't it start cold without the clutch lever in?

It just turns over then dies.
Nothing will make it go, choke or blipping the throttle it just stalls.
When you blip the throttle it makes an odd sound, can't really describe it.

I'm going to do some more testing over the weekend and see what happens with a cold start on the centre stand.

[Sketchy_Racer]

It's bad form to start a motorcycle in gear. Don't be lazy. Park with it in neutral, then start in neutral.

As mention cold oil is enough to create a fluid drag between the gears, clutch plates and moving parts inside your motor. Having it in gear putting that extra load on your starter motor is unnessary. Also if the motor is cold your going to put it in neutral to warm up for a bit anyway (right!) so why not put it in neutral when the motor is off. It's easier too!

[FROSTY]

And heres the full version :devil2: thanks sketchy


It's bad form to start a motorcycle in gear. Don't be lazy. Park with it in neutral, then start in neutral.

As mention cold oil is enough to create a fluid drag between the gears, clutch plates and moving parts inside your motor. Having it in gear putting that extra load on your starter motor is unnessary. Also if the motor is cold your going to put it in neutral to warm up for a bit anyway (right!) so why not put it in neutral when the motor is off. It's easier too!

[MaxCannon]

Thanks guys
Just to be clear - it's not in gear when I start it, it's in Neutral (I know cause the little green light is on and it doesn't try to launch through the shed wall when I press the starter).
Hence the confussion over why pulling in the clutch makes a difference.

Methinks I shall run it for a bit on the current oil and then change it myself so I know whats going in it.
I found Motul 5100 made for smoother shifting on the GN and the gearbox on the ZZR is pretty clunky at the mo.

[TimeOut]

My sons ZXR 250 always strated better with the clutch in. Even with a new battery and running Castrol GPS, it seemed to spin over fine but just wouldn't fire.

[mikey62]

My ZZR400 has also been having the odd problem starting on cold mornings. I find that if you catch it on the first firing then keep the revs up its ok but if you miss it then it takes a couple of bump start attempts to get it to fire. I've found that if I haven't run the bike for a couple of days then leave it out over night this can happen, otherwise its all good. Could just be an age thing.

On the clunky gears, get used to it. Older Kwakas are notorious for this, especially going from neutral into first and from first into second.

[MaxCannon]

Cheers for all the replies
A bit of an update
I tried a hot start in N with the clutch out and it still wouldn't run.
I'm thinking perhaps there is some sort of weird safety system that lets it turn over but not fire if the clutch is out.

So starting procedure is clutch in, turn over, it fires and runs sweet but won't idle on the choke. Have to hold the revs at about 1200-1500 for the first minute.
It's still a lot easier to make it go than the GN which used to be a pig in the cold, kept stalling no matter what you did.

I think I'm getting better at using the box now too, only a couple of embarrassing 1st to N shifts over the weekend.

[Max Preload]

I tried a hot start in N with the clutch out and it still wouldn't run.
I'm thinking perhaps there is some sort of weird safety system that lets it turn over but not fire if the clutch is out.

Not likely. There are features on some bikes that prevent you from attempting to start the bike in gear with the sidestand down and the clutch out, or kill the engine if it's running and you put the bike in gear with the sidestand down, but there would be no purpose to any safety system that doesn't prevent the engine winding over when in gear - it'll still jump off the sidestand and as yours winds over but just won't start that eliminates that.

I still say load test the battery.