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motorbyclist
2nd August 2008, 23:28
Restricted entry; what do you guys think?

Basically as of next year to get into ANY bachelor/degree programme you have to meet pre-requisites, which may force you to go back to school or do a 6 month course before being allowed into your desired course.


AUSA seems to oppose it as it makes things 'unfair'... a good example would be smaller schools not being able to offer alot of subjects, thus preventing some from getting into their preferred course. then there's those who don't decide until half way through 7th form what to do. I fell into both those categories come the end of 2006, barely scraped into engineering due to a lackluster maths performance, was required to do a 4 week maths course, and then proceeded to do surprisingly well.

The University wants it due to new funding system meaning they only have x amount of money to go round and don't want to stretch it too far over too many students.

Many courses already have restricted entry anyway.

It is meant to make the degrees better/more worthwhile as you aren't going to waste the first 6-12 months learning stuff you've already learnt - or should have learnt - in high school, thus giving an extra semester or two to learn more, or possibly shorten the course. again i fall into the frustrated "already learnt this shit last year" camp cause i was smart enough to keep my options open and do all the sciences/maths stuff at high school, but if i decided to do commerce, law, any languages, fine arts, history etc next year i would be stuffed.

Basically more money and better degree for those that get in, tough luck if you cant.

Whaddaya reckon??

bomma
2nd August 2008, 23:46
sounds like the govt is sticking another vibrator in the already congested orifice of the student population.....a restriction to enter into a BA?!?! How hard is it to learn to say "Would you like fries with that"?!?! just another scam to get more money out of the students.....

rachprice
3rd August 2008, 09:43
Nah I reckon they should...there are so many people that fail every paper and waste money doing something they shouldn't be doing, the just want the lifestyle (guess dunedin might have more people like that than auckland)
Bursary was piss easy to get 3 c's and I dont really know much about NCEA but it appears to be piss easy as well, credits from stuff that is not academic at all (which is fine but when going to uni, not so much so)

N1CK
3rd August 2008, 10:13
Nah I reckon they should...there are so many people that fail every paper and waste money doing something they shouldn't be doing, the just want the lifestyle (guess dunedin might have more people like that than auckland)
Bursary was piss easy to get 3 c's and I dont really know much about NCEA but it appears to be piss easy as well, credits from stuff that is not academic at all (which is fine but when going to uni, not so much so)

Hey, I go to college not uni. What non academic stuff do you get credits for??

tommorth
3rd August 2008, 10:20
i rekon its a good plan if you really want to do somthing you will make the effort to do the pre req

PirateJafa
3rd August 2008, 10:49
Hey, I go to college not uni. What non academic stuff do you get credits for??

You can get credits for doing a "learn to sail" course ffs.

rachprice
3rd August 2008, 10:51
Hey, I go to college not uni. What non academic stuff do you get credits for??

As I said don't really know much about it (I was the last to go through bursary), just want people have told me

dino3310
3rd August 2008, 12:48
i have to go back to school and get minimum level2 in maths and physics before i can start a civil engerneering diploma, i thought that sucked till i saw :gob::sweatdropsome of the shit i would have to do for the civil diploma, with out learning the maths and physics i wouldn't get very far on the diploma.

Real_Wolf
3rd August 2008, 13:32
I dunno, its a plan with its benefits and its problems.

Depending on how they implement it.

For example, if they say "You must have these courses at this level to get in" and don't budge, thats just plain stupid, especially for the people who didn't take like maths or something in 7th form (year 13).

But, if they say "You must have this sort of a grade to get in", and make 'judgements' that are fair for people who haven't taken that course, but who obviously CAN learn, then thats fine. It will weed out all the people unable to learn, and those that are a bit behind can easily catch up doing a tiny bit more work. It won't cut out the 'did this last year' stuff, but it will bring it down from like half a semester to maybe a week.

Of course the problem with the above is that NCEA is so retarded (I went through it), that you can't really judge just how well someone learns from what they get. For example, Geography has this one paper, where like 30% got Excellence, 50% got Merit, and the rest was split between not achieved and achieved. Merit is meant to be like B+, and Excellence is the top mark you can get really, so A-> A+, and its like that throughout with stupid things.

They COULD make you take a short simple test, thats not like a knowledge test, but like a test of something relevant, like a small bit of math, with maybe a thing on 'how to do it', then you have to understand and do it, to show that you can learn it. For example getting into a math course, they have a small bit of info on how to differentiate, and then they ask you to differentiate something. If you can do that with the info (some could do it without, some wouldn't understand), then you can egt into the course. Of course thered be more than that, but thats an example.

Phurrball
3rd August 2008, 17:39
An interesting idea to restrict entry - but for the wrong reasons.

Auckland is like many NZ tertiary institutions in that it has seen an explosion in student numbers - Why? The EFTS funding system is to blame.

Thank you last National government for promoting a 'bums on seats' funding regime...

(Why was it that Te Wananga O Aotearoa beacme so huge so fast? [Not suggesting there is no merit there, but rather that EFTS allows this kind of massive growth] Why do we see so many ads for tertiary education providers? I could go on.)

The trouble is to do it without disadvantaging any groups - which is AUSA's point I believe.

A change to restricted entry is a move to stem the result of the flawed EFTS funding regime - but it's not the right way to go about it IMHO. As Andrew alludes, there are many talented people that don't do too well in a school setting - how long should we hold someone's poor grades at high school against them?

I've not looked to closely at the proposed entry restrictions - but University should not be elitist. Education is a societal as well as an individual benefit. There needs to be a deeper look at the culture that has led to the present 'need' for a bachelor's degree to do anything, and the resources wasted on competition between equally good universities.

Lets not forget the politics driving this policy here - There seem to be similar tensions between VC McCutcheon and AU staff as there were between VC Fogelberg at OU when I was studying there (Staff strikes etc). The VC has been pushing this as far as I can make out, and as per there has not been sufficient consultation with stakeholder groups.

As for lifestyle studying - that is short lived, as if you fail too much, then no more allowance or student loan! (I can't think why anyone whould choose the artificial reality of tertiary study and being the only sector of society forced to borrow to live unless they actually wanted an education)

That's a my half-informed rant on it. Haven't had time to look into it too much - but I will stick in the boot though and say there are better NZ universities than AU.

NOT academically, it's up there with the best - but in terms of pastoral care of students and lifestyle, OU beats it hands down. I ought to know, as I've had a rocky road at both, and OU is much more supportive - AU just takes your money... (Though Law School here is excellent - shame about overall AU admin)

Ross

Ragingrob
3rd August 2008, 17:53
Uni should be restricted more than it is to reduce the number of numbnuts who are just wasting time and money, it should then be made free again so that the smarties of the country don't have to start their careers with massive debts.

The reduction of course fees is much more ideal than the proposed student allowance to all students by the govt. for these elections.

Honestly wtf, we pay what, between $400 and $800 for each papers, AND THEN they fucken tell us we need to buy the $140 textbook plus $15 course book, oh and print off any course slides... It's such bullshit.

Edit : Oh and 4 papers at Uni is a supposed 40 hour week (recommended by the Uni, not as if anyone spends that much time), many students take 5 papers some semesters for their conjoint degrees, so that's a 50 hour supposed week, and we're meant to get a job and earn money to pay for our course fees, books, rent, bills, food, beer, motorbikes how?!

Why the hell does the government think that putting students tens of thousands of dollars in debt is a good idea?

motorbyclist
3rd August 2008, 18:08
Hey, I go to college not uni. What non academic stuff do you get credits for??

getting a drivers licence, physical education etc - although to be fair the stuff i saw for Phys ed wasn't exactly a walk in the park, more a gruelling run for 5km



Honestly wtf, we pay what, between $400 and $800 for each papers, AND THEN they fucken tell us we need to buy the $140 textbook plus $15 course book, oh and print off any course slides... It's such bullshit.


+1!

(but i suppose you get the option as to buying new/2nd hand this way)

Ragingrob
3rd August 2008, 18:17
getting a drivers licence, physical education etc - although to be fair the stuff i saw for Phys ed wasn't exactly a walk in the park, more a gruelling run for 5km

How about the school (dunno which one) that gave out credits for picking up litter... :niceone: Good stuff there!




+1!

(but i suppose you get the option as to buying new/2nd hand this way)

I reckon Uni should work the same as school, hand out all the books, and then make people pay if they aren't returned or in shit condition, then UBS wouldn't even have to buy brand new books year after year either unless the edition changes.

But no, I guess everything is to do with profit making and screwing up younger generations these days.

klyong82
3rd August 2008, 18:57
Interesting... well there is alway AUT University to consider and with the campus in the process been renovated down in Manakau pretty suce its gonna welcome with open hands of the students that are rejected by AU. :shutup:

MGST
3rd August 2008, 18:59
As Andrew alludes, there are many talented people that don't do too well in a school setting - how long should we hold someone's poor grades at high school against them?

Ross


University is the next school after college, right? so if people don't do too well in a school ( college ) setting, what makes you think they will magically come right 3 months later at University?

I can see both sides of the picture, but in order to keep it simple and easy to understand, and most importantly NOT be accused of leniency towards some people, there needs to be a hard and fast " get these makes and your in, otherwise your on your bike". THen no one can say they didn't realise this, no one told them that, etc

Better still, GO GET A TRADE :dodge:

MattRSK
3rd August 2008, 19:01
I am planning on doing engineering next year at Canterbury, this is the first I have heard of restricted entry. Having traveled to Christchurch to met with liaison staff and being told I would be accepted no issue, this comes as quite a surprise.

I left school at the end of sixth form and have since completed an electrical apprenticeship. My sixth form certificate marks are just under the requirements for university entrance. I would hope that they would judge entry requirements on the study I have completed, and excelled at, outside of high school.

Would this make the adult entry void?

Certain people won't know what they want to do straight out of school. I imagine this would just add more pressure to decide early on.

N1CK
3rd August 2008, 19:29
You can get credits for doing a "learn to sail" course ffs.

I don't know anything about this one, but there could be some type of evaluating and writing at the end. ?? Instead of just sailing.


getting a drivers licence, physical education etc - although to be fair the stuff i saw for Phys ed wasn't exactly a walk in the park, more a gruelling run for 5km

Never heard of the drivers licence one. That one is a bit rude. :eek5:

The P.E stuff however contains a lot of thinking and writing, after the actual phys ed, and can get quite intense.


Anyway, this stuff is off topic.

Squiggles
3rd August 2008, 19:31
We must remember that there are already courses set aside for students who didnt make the grades for UE, they do a semester of uni and passing gets them in (believe its called a Cert. of Proficiency but not sure and cant remember what papers you do)...

What if they were to keep that system, but say, you chuck in a paper or two from the faculty you want to get into in there, (The faculty's Gen ed paper and 1 normal perhaps? ) Then, if you didnt make the grades at school, theres still a pathway, and if you cant make it in that enviroment, then how are you going to make it through 4 years worth?

Real_Wolf
3rd August 2008, 20:40
I'm not sure, but I think that the "over 25 is a different category" setup will still apply.

I think that whatever they do, they should at least try to find out whether or not you CAN learn. Alot of people don't learn at college cause there doesn't seem much point, and when your at university, its not what you know, its what your able to learn that matters. I knew absolutely nothing about wave particle duality until I learnt them, but if I wasn't scientifically inclined, I might not have been able to learn that at all, like alot of people who take alot of subjects can't learn what they need to.

I'm reminded of a 'what university course to take' thing at college, where someone asked the economics people whether they wanted people taking 7th form accounting or economics, and they went "No, we don't, they teach it all wrong, then we have to go back and re teach it anyway"

Ragingrob
3rd August 2008, 23:03
I'm glad I sucked at economics in school then :2thumbsup

Zealot
3rd August 2008, 23:25
I'm fine with the restricted entry. I'm doing a BE/BSc, and the standard in science is pretty low. In terms of difficulty, science seems to be about the same as engineering, but the workload is lighter, at least at 2nd stage (although 3rd stage geog was easy too). There are also a lot of people who don't seem to care about the papers they take.

I can recall going to compsci220 lectures and having ~20 people in the class. Come test time, the class had ~120 people in it.

Hopefully restricted entry will raise the bar a bit.

motorbyclist
4th August 2008, 00:17
University is the next school after college, right? so if people don't do too well in a school ( college ) setting, what makes you think they will magically come right 3 months later at University?

completely different environment, different attitude, different friends, different learning style, material is actually relevant to what you want to do and paying through the nose for it provides a strong incentive to do well

not saying everyone is capable of it, as many are not, but a lot of "bad students" at high school do in fact magically come right (or atleast up to the bar)


We must remember that there are already courses set aside for students who didnt make the grades for UE, they do a semester of uni and passing gets them in (believe its called a Cert. of Proficiency but not sure and cant remember what papers you do)...

What if they were to keep that system, but say, you chuck in a paper or two from the faculty you want to get into in there, (The faculty's Gen ed paper and 1 normal perhaps? ) Then, if you didnt make the grades at school, theres still a pathway, and if you cant make it in that enviroment, then how are you going to make it through 4 years worth?

+1 again

personally, when heard about restricted entry i thought "so what?"

there's already a lot of restrictions, and alot of exceptions. good working example is those who don't make it into engineering being allowed in later down the track if they can hold atleast a B+ average in a science degree

bomma
4th August 2008, 23:49
but shouldnt uni entry be available to all?? if i want to go to uni just to socialise and waste MY time and MY money why the hell should i not be allowed to?!?! Like Ross pointed out this doesnt happen much and any persons doing this wouldnt last too long without support or some passing grades but shouldnt this option be open to me??

also currently, there are already restrictions in place for entrance into many "hardout/pwnz0r" courses such as engineering.....my grades from school werent good enough to get me into engineering and those were the brakes....i think the system in-place for assessing entry qualifications is fine. like i said, you dont need excellences to get into a BA...i mean really "Would you like fries with that?" SEE ITS THAT SIMPLE

also just coz im a dumass at school doesnt necessarily make me a dumass.....i would have failed 7th form physics if i hadnt gotten tutoring coz my teacher was an idiot and we spent most of our class time watching junkyard wars and blowing up bottles with dry ice.....my grades didnt reflect the learning that took place in school....how "intelligent" a person is is very subjective to their environment......

Squiggles
6th August 2008, 23:37
but shouldnt uni entry be available to all?? if i want to go to uni just to socialise and waste MY time and MY money why the hell should i not be allowed to?!?! Like Ross pointed out this doesnt happen much and any persons doing this wouldnt last too long without support or some passing grades but shouldnt this option be open to me??

Yer, but it is true that the fees we pay are already heavily subsidised by the gubbermunt, which essentially means that only a portion of your courses come from "your money"... And to think we'd let you waste your time and money without telling you what to do :lol:

Personally, I believe you've got to want it to get it, if you want to go to uni, you'll do what is required... i want to get a degree, so i was willing to work hard to get in (even though there is currently no entry requirements for science), i intend to leave with that degree. Some people come in, and just sort of hang round, never leaving, never passing (when they fail they dont even try harder next time round). They just sit in limbo for 5 years, no idea what they want, no desire to find out, meanwhile others cant get into the lectures/labs because of those limbo'ing.

I dont agree with going straight from school to uni either though, you've got to get out there first to know fully what you dont want to do with your life, and perhaps you might just find out what you do want... I dont want to be a tiler, gardener, groundskeeper, builder, housemover, or an electrician. I might still be a courier, teacher or pyrotechnician, but we'll see :done:

motorbyclist
6th August 2008, 23:51
Y
Personally, I believe you've got to want it to get it, if you want to go to uni, you'll do what is required...
I dont agree with going straight from school to uni either though, you've got to get out there first to know fully what you dont want to do with your life...

so you'd suggest open entry with lower subsidy (higher fees) to scare off those who aren't serious?



btw, you actually tried courier work yet? my neighbours work at fastway (higher up running something, ex drivers but my mate still drives occasionally when inbetween work) and it's not the best job, particularly when you have to pay for damaged goods that were munted by idiots loading them on/off trucks. the loaders don't pay so literally throw stuff around, landing you with the bills for damage.
plus traffic/stress etc etc... unless it was on a bike i'd say being a gardener would be better, and gardening is shit

vindy500
7th August 2008, 02:49
how about different fees for different results, i.e in second year if your average was A then you pay less fees than the person who got a C average....


i guess thats what schols are for tho huh..




*enjoys his step up scholarship*

motorbyclist
7th August 2008, 03:16
unfortunately i didn't get any scholarships, being 2nd best in all my subjects meant nothing from the school, never got the paperwork/information about sitting sholarship exams despite my asking several times, and there being no scholarships available to mechatronics students... and my parents earn too much, despite also supporting my younger siblings and paying off the mortgage

there's those bonded merit govt ones you get for doing well but apparently i'm not doing well enough despite meeting all criteria; all the smarter students got in first:(



bit OT here:

big problem with NCEA is that a student who did "Physics" may have done a completely different set of achievement standards (ie, mini papers) to another student who also did "Physics"

and within that is unbalance in the work requirement and/or difficulty for a given number of credits across different standards. ie a 500 word essay in english gets the same number of credits as a 3000 word fully referenced report in biology

and then there's the issue of dodgy schools like cambridge with had multichoice tests for internal assesments

Squiggles
7th August 2008, 07:20
btw, you actually tried courier work yet?
.......
plus traffic/stress etc etc... unless it was on a bike i'd say being a gardener would be better, and gardening is shit

Not yet, i just about did but came to uni instead, got my goods&services license tho. Was going to do it on a GN :2thumbsup

klyong82
7th August 2008, 09:22
I dont agree with going straight from school to uni either though, you've got to get out there first to know fully what you dont want to do with your life, and perhaps you might just find out what you do want... I dont want to be a tiler, gardener, groundskeeper, builder, housemover, or an electrician. I might still be a courier, teacher or pyrotechnician, but we'll see :done:

I agree with your thought ... going to university nowadays to many people seems to be something that everyone does and they don't know why. I ask them what ya planning to do and 6 or 7 out of 10 most of the time will say I don't know - I am taking this paper because my friend is doing it or my grades allow me to do so or the career advisor think I am suitable or etc etc..

I think the restrictions is a good thing to only allow people who wanna be there to persue a tertiary education while the rest in the labour force or technical college or an apprenticeship.

. Anyway you should be a pimp as you fit the criteria....bike pimp.

teamsuperoxide
7th August 2008, 17:32
Restricted entry is a bit of double edged sword.
On the one hand it will improve the quality of University education but on the other there will be people who miss out with poor high school marks that would have excelled in the University environment.
I'm definitely one of the latter. I dropped out before 7th form, enrolled in IT at AUT, dropped out of that when the computers plotted to kill me but discovered chemistry in the process and I'm now about to finish a MSc in Inorganometallic Coordination Chemistry. However after two years teaching students in stage-one chemistry I welcome restrictions. University is used by a lot of kids as the dole.
I think its up to the high schools to help student decide what they want to do with there lives. I’m not sure about all subjects but I definitely know that in the sciences what is taught in high school is far removed for University level and University level is generally more interesting.

motorbyclist
7th August 2008, 17:50
I agree with your thought ... going to university nowadays to many people seems to be something that everyone does and they don't know why. I ask them what ya planning to do and 6 or 7 out of 10 most of the time will say I don't know - I am taking this paper because my friend is doing it or my grades allow me to do so or the career advisor think I am suitable or etc etc..

i can think of A LOT of people who fit that description, most of whom are doing arts, and a few who are doing science (and are unsure of what they want to do with the degree)

i mean, how many art historians do we need? political science? english? philosophy?

a lot of these subjects don't actually lead to anything more than teaching it. not saying they should be binned, but under the current system they get fees subsidised and some manage to get a student allowance to do something that doesn't actually offer anything back to the economy

languages are a good example of papers many people do and never use except maybe for that one trip to the one country that speaks it (that said if i learnt japanese finding bike parts would be alot easier... and i could take my mechatronics degree over there and make a small fortune)

klyong82
7th August 2008, 20:01
i can think of A LOT of people who fit that description, most of whom are doing arts, and a few who are doing science (and are unsure of what they want to do with the degree)

i mean, how many art historians do we need? political science? english? philosophy?

a lot of these subjects don't actually lead to anything more than teaching it. not saying they should be binned, but under the current system they get fees subsidised and some manage to get a student allowance to do something that doesn't actually offer anything back to the economy

languages are a good example of papers many people do and never use except maybe for that one trip to the one country that speaks it (that said if i learnt japanese finding bike parts would be alot easier... and i could take my mechatronics degree over there and make a small fortune)

Well not like that I just feel that only if you genuinely have a desire to obtain a tertiary qualification that is ok and does not matter what you are studying....but it is just those that have no clue what they are doing there I think it is wasting their time and tax payers money ...

This might not be directly related but I have always felt strongly about the NZ brain drain whereby after the government provide student allowance and student loans to educate students they fly off to another country to seek work....I suppose this restriction will help to reduce this...

Real_Wolf
7th August 2008, 20:05
If i could read japanese, I'd be able to understand what one of the lights on my dashboard is. Of course, its never come on, and the previous owner has never remembered it coming on.

I think it might be the "omg, your stuffed" light, so good thing it hasn't come on anytime

Squiggles
7th August 2008, 21:18
Quite possibly the speed light, supposed to come on when you go over 80k's

Do you think people take free entry for granted?

vindy500
7th August 2008, 21:21
Quite possibly the speed light, supposed to come on when you go over 80k's

Do you think people take free entry for granted?

my bike has a speed light at 80.


yes.

motorbyclist
7th August 2008, 21:51
If i could read japanese, I'd be able to understand what one of the lights on my dashboard is. Of course, its never come on, and the previous owner has never remembered it coming on.

I think it might be the "omg, your stuffed" light, so good thing it hasn't come on anytime

just ask banzai or any of the other several thousand japanese students who don't get govt subsidy to come here



about brain drain:

main issue is govt funding not offering a return on investment when engineers/doctors go overseas to get twice what they get paid in nz, but if a student does a degree that in no way leads to a higher tax bracket income, yet stays in NZ, isn't that an equal waste of money?

the NZ govt does give out "bonded merit scholarships" whereby if you leave the country for more than 6 months within x number of years your scholarship defaults to a student loan... but then you end up where you would be where you started anyway.

and looking at the numbers, i could be financially better off working in aussie and paying interest on the loan than staying here and paying it off interest free.... and that way they'd be taxing my income while i'm in a forgein country AND recieving more money back anyway so it's a win-win innit? well maybe a win-win if i come back after 5 years....


talking to some malaysian students in engineering, they get all their fees and expenses paid by their government to come to NZ to get a degree - only catch is they're contracted to work back home for 10 years....
i'd take that deal:mellow:

Ragingrob
7th August 2008, 21:59
My bike has the speed of light too... It's more than 80 though.

Yo Andrew, what difference in riding have those tyres made on your bike? Being a larger rear and all?

It'd be cool if the studylink hardware completely crashed and lost all data on student loans.

bomma
7th August 2008, 22:28
man i dont understand how we could possibly want a heavier restriction on uni entry!!!! how insane is it to tell a child that they must choose what they wish to do for the rest of their life prior to entering high-school or even university?!?!?! i mean look at TEMASUPEROXIDE!! he had no idea what the hell he was going to do until he tried everything available to him and now he's pwning all us n00bs....i started off doing a bsc in psych coz my aunty has a Phd in psych and she said it was awesome and only in second year did i pick up my BCom conjoint and decide to focus on HR.....and EVEN NOW im unsure if im going to pursue HR as a career......

and i disagree with the economist perspective of "if this person gets into uni, what will their ultimate value be in terms of ROI"......HONESTLY what's wrong with more seats on bums?!?! coming from a population of more than a billion people and having seen the lengths families in india go to to get their children into schooling and especially higher education i think its AWESOME that in NZ any person has these oppotunities......isnt the whole point of studying to find out what we like/dislike and what we are good/bad at??

i think that any restriction should reflect the difficulty of the particular degree and/or course....it doesnt take too much to do a bsc or a bcom (subjective to particular courses) but engineering or med or pharmacy etc should and do already have restrictions.....dont see any reason to change

man this has gotten into a friggin essay.....ill just shutup now

motorbyclist
7th August 2008, 22:51
My bike has the speed of light too... It's more than 80 though.

Yo Andrew, what difference in riding have those tyres made on your bike? Being a larger rear and all?


what? viffer doesn't have a speed of light..... you don't mean the oil light do you?:laugh:

i find the rear to be good in the sense that i hit pegs before i run out of rubber, but the rear does sit a bit square as a result so in the wet it can squiggle a bit (i need not explain how that ends), but overall a good tyre combo imho

though back when i had that nice pointy pirelli front and standard size rear it felt a bit more flickable and pitched into corners a bit faster

klyong82
7th August 2008, 22:57
about brain drain:

and looking at the numbers, i could be financially better off working in aussie and paying interest on the loan than staying here and paying it off interest free.... and that way they'd be taxing my income while i'm in a forgein country AND recieving more money back anyway so it's a win-win innit? well maybe a win-win if i come back after 5 years....


talking to some malaysian students in engineering, they get all their fees and expenses paid by their government to come to NZ to get a degree - only catch is they're contracted to work back home for 10 years....
i'd take that deal:mellow:

I know where you are coming from bro...but the fact is if you were working in aussie or elsewhere sure the money is more but what are the percentages that these graduates will be making contributions to their loan? I know many people who just left and each year the interest accummulates...for a fact I know the IRD has no way of tracking whether you are working overseas or not so it is totally up to the individual if they are paying off the loan.....but there is no end to this debate..

Malaysians only if they get a scholarship and usually that is if you are a bumiputera (people of the land)....good deal mate....sadly I was not eligible even though i was an outstanding student..


man i dont understand how we could possibly want a heavier restriction on uni entry!!!! how insane is it to tell a child that they must choose what they wish to do for the rest of their life prior to entering high-school or even university?!?!?! i mean look at TEMASUPEROXIDE!! he had no idea what the hell he was going to do until he tried everything available to him and now he's pwning all us n00bs....i started off doing a bsc in psych coz my aunty has a Phd in psych and she said it was awesome and only in second year did i pick up my BCom conjoint and decide to focus on HR.....and EVEN NOW im unsure if im going to pursue HR as a career......

and i disagree with the economist perspective of "if this person gets into uni, what will their ultimate value be in terms of ROI"......HONESTLY what's wrong with more seats on bums?!?! coming from a population of more than a billion people and having seen the lengths families in india go to to get their children into schooling and especially higher education i think its AWESOME that in NZ any person has these oppotunities......isnt the whole point of studying to find out what we like/dislike and what we are good/bad at??

i think that any restriction should reflect the difficulty of the particular degree and/or course....it doesnt take too much to do a bsc or a bcom (subjective to particular courses) but engineering or med or pharmacy etc should and do already have restrictions.....dont see any reason to change

man this has gotten into a friggin essay.....ill just shutup now


Yeah bro seems like no end....i have strong opinions on this subject but i think i am gonna shut up tooo.........in the mean time I should be channeling my hard earn sales and profits to cayman islands so that the IRD dont tax me heavily to pay your student allowance :msn-wink: I dont mind if it is Nish though haha

Squiggles
8th August 2008, 19:38
the NZ govt does give out "bonded merit scholarships" whereby if you leave the country for more than 6 months within x number of years your scholarship defaults to a student loan... but then you end up where you would be where you started anyway.

Im on such a scheme, for the 4 years of my degree, all my fees are paid, and i end up with 10grand cash, the catch? I must teach in new zealand for the same number of years i had my fees paid, within the next 6... or it just becomes a student loan. I can also take a year off mid study which i intend to do after my BSc and before my diploma

They only offer this for Science & Maths teachers, possibly to PE or Maori, cant remember exactly... I dont know if there are any other areas such a scheme is offered, but it works, seeing as there is a high chance that by the time im done, ill be around the age when you're supposed to get married, have kids etc... so more likely to stay in nz long term too...

bomma
8th August 2008, 21:28
get married, have kids etc... so more likely to stay in nz long term too...

i can just imagine the lil squiggle-lings running around, fixing the gn, hanging other people's bikes off the ceiling of the shed, with their scruffy unshaven faces and baggy ripped-up hoodie.....ah pleasant future :clap:

Ragingrob
8th August 2008, 22:17
You just made my relatively boring night Nish, :niceone:

motorbyclist
8th August 2008, 22:32
Im on such a scheme, for the 4 years of my degree, all my fees are paid, and i end up with 10grand cash, the catch? I must teach in new zealand for the same number of years i had my fees paid, within the next 6... or it just becomes a student loan. I can also take a year off mid study which i intend to do after my BSc and before my diploma

They only offer this for Science & Maths teachers, possibly to PE or Maori, cant remember exactly... I dont know if there are any other areas such a scheme is offered, but it works, seeing as there is a high chance that by the time im done, ill be around the age when you're supposed to get married, have kids etc... so more likely to stay in nz long term too...

i didn't realise you were doing teaching too (that's a completely different scholarship btw, but same system)


i can just imagine the lil squiggle-lings running around, fixing the gn, hanging other people's bikes off the ceiling of the shed, with their scruffy unshaven faces and baggy ripped-up hoodie.....ah pleasant future :clap:

:rofl:

:killingme:
best SMC post of the year:clap:

BIHB@0610
8th August 2008, 22:52
Restricting entry on some courses may be a good idea - those that (as have been said before) seem to attract people who just go to varsity for the sake of it.

But in the case of planning/resource management, I'd have to question restricted entry (entry's been restricted into planning at The University of Auckland since at least the early 90s, when I chewed my fingernails off wondering if I'd got in).

We are now facing a dire shortage of RM planners - great if you're in it for the huge salary (supply-demand etc) but as planners tend to go into the profession "for the greater good", most of us are really concerned at the state of things! I think it should be horses for courses - open entry in some courses (e.g. planning!), restricted in others.

But don't have open entry into planning for another 10 years - will give me time to buy more Mumm and Gucci ..... p/t.

Hanne
9th August 2008, 22:54
a lot of these subjects don't actually lead to anything more than teaching it. not saying they should be binned, but under the current system they get fees subsidised and some manage to get a student allowance to do something that doesn't actually offer anything back to the economy

languages are a good example of papers many people do and never use except maybe for that one trip to the one country that speaks it

Surely in order to negotiate trade deals with foreign nations you need people to negotiate the terms of the deals, facilitate imports and exports etc.
We can't just assume that everyone else will do the hard yards and learn english to make contact with us. In fact such assumptions put us on the back foot. It is to our advantage to have multi-lingual people working in our companies as it opens up all sorts of possibilities to be proactive and make contact with foreign companies ourselves,giving us the competitive advantage.

From a personal point of view it is also to your advantage to be multi-lingual as it allows you greater freedom to work abroad. More choices when it comes to looking overseas to pay off that student loan.

Ragingrob
9th August 2008, 23:18
Yep I plan to use all three languages throughout my life both for personal interest and for career choices.

You're spot on there Hanne.

motorbyclist
10th August 2008, 02:19
Surely in order to negotiate trade deals with foreign nations you need people to negotiate the terms of the deals, facilitate imports and exports etc.
We can't just assume that everyone else will do the hard yards and learn english to make contact with us. In fact such assumptions put us on the back foot. It is to our advantage to have multi-lingual people working in our companies as it opens up all sorts of possibilities to be proactive and make contact with foreign companies ourselves,giving us the competitive advantage.

From a personal point of view it is also to your advantage to be multi-lingual as it allows you greater freedom to work abroad. More choices when it comes to looking overseas to pay off that student loan.

totally agree

i didn't say it was a dead loss, never said the course was a waste of time, but i did say -

- waste of time if you never actually use it. not everyone becomes a translator, some will only use that 3 years of study for a whole of 30 minutes plus a holiday. this doesn't just apply to languages, and i'm not tarring all students with the same brush here, but i am making a valid point whereby languages/art history/women's studies/*insert personal interest here* will in many cases not actually benefit the student as far as employment is concerned. heck i could do my engineering degree then work at a mcdonalds and be 'guilty' of what i'm talking about here, and i bet you'd all be going "what a waste of time".

- waste of government/taxpayer money if you never use it. ALSO a waste if you use it to go overseas. whether or not you pay your loan they still paid the remaining 75% of the course fees. not just languages either; this is the crux of the 'brain drain' issue with new graduates, along with leaving no skilled workers back home. so by funding your learning a language in order for you to open up opportunities to work overseas, the govt is funding this nation's economic failure. if i went overseas with my engineering degree it would be the same case

- also mentioned that it would be to one's personal multi-lingual advantage anyway, so :bleh: you agreed with me

so, in summary, unless you actually use your language/art history/engineering/medicine qualifications within NZ in such a way that it increases your taxable income, until you've paid enough income tax to cover your education and health care and your proportion of beneficiaries and govt workers, New Zealand is losing money by funding your university education. i'm talking financial return on investment.

you could try to argue the "benefits to society" of a more learned population.... and i'd probably agree:p up to a point when we start trying to weigh up the actual societal benefits against the economic loss

motorbyclist
10th August 2008, 02:28
lol that was like writing my wall of text to dushi about helmets but sounded much more bigoted; so try not to get defensive about my examples but actually examine the concepts. if politicians did that we would be moving forward so much faster. instead we (needlessly) have a power crisis, shit public transport, generally poor infrastructure and a resultant failing economy.

Hanne
17th August 2008, 20:39
lol that was like writing my wall of text to dushi about helmets but sounded much more bigoted; so try not to get defensive about my examples but actually examine the concepts. if politicians did that we would be moving forward so much faster. instead we (needlessly) have a power crisis, shit public transport, generally poor infrastructure and a resultant failing economy.

So when are you standing for parliament?
:p

Squiggles
17th August 2008, 21:23
So when are you standing for parliament?
:p

we aim to get in at the 2012 election :headbang:

motorbyclist
18th August 2008, 00:43
see china's growth? it's thanks largely due to being governed by a meritocracy full of engineers

compared to new zealand being run by hippies and the PC brigade with no concern beyond the next election