Emergency Braking

[p.dath]

This thread is to discuss the braking page on the Wiki.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/wiki/Braking

Braking is a contentious issue, and I think the forum has better tools for performing a discussion than the wiki.

[p.dath]

OutForADuck made this comment:

THIS IS ALL MY OWN OPINION AND PLEASE ACCEPT OR REJECT IT AS PART OF YOUR OWN SKILL SET, BUT I FELT STRONGLY ENOUGH ABOUT SOME OF THIS "NEW" RIDER ADVICE TO COMMENT

On any road you will stop much quicker using both brakes.

Throttle position under emergency braking , don't worry about it too much. Except for ensuring it is closed, or you will drastically reduce your braking power

Downshifts under normal braking - blipping can smooth things out but modulating the clutch by letting it out slowly and feeling what the bike is doing is a far more important skill. The clutch is not good gradual control and expensive when you wear it out. You should try to learn how to ride smoothly shifting with the clutch (or without when you get better) as if the clutch was a switch. Blipping the throttle will allow you to do this effectively.. Takes practice but becomes completely automatic after a while

Covering the front brake all the time is generally a Good thing, But don't stress about it and its only really important in traffic situations so don't bother when your on the track or out on that country road.

1/2/3 finger braking is generally a bad thing, especially for inexperienced riders. On a modern well maintained bike using all four fingers on the front brake is a recipe for disaster. All modern bikes will allow you to lock the front wheel with only two fingers, even at speed and under panic with four fingers you are going to be in trouble. Combine this with the way our hands work and you'll realise that the first and second fingers are controlled by muscles that have evolved for fine control whereas the third and fourth fingers use much larger and more isometric muscles. If you don't believe me try writing using a pen held only with your thumb and little finger and then try with your first finger and thumb

Most experts say to apply the rear brake momentarily before the front. If braking is done the other way, it causes the back of a bike to sag and reduces weight over the front tyre. However it's irrelevant as for most riders (inexperienced or otherwise), when they grab the brakes their hand reaches the front lever quicker than the foot presses the back. If you can form a habit of always applying the rear brake first then the back you will be in a good position. The reason for this is many fold, Firstly its an additional braking forec and even on sports bikes will help. Secondly it works as a stabiliser, helping to keep the bike pointing straight while you brake, thirdly it compresses the suspension (especially the back, but also the front) which lowers the bike and allows you to brake harder before the rear looses traction, also because it compresses the front as well it helps enormously with the progressive loading of the front tyre helping to reduce your chances of locking it, Lastly (maybe) it does all this even if you lock it up (very common with new and old riders alike) so you get the benefits even if you are still trying to get the skills

Use the rear brake only for slow speed maneuvers (around walking speed). A bike is much easier to manouvere without the front end bouncing up and down. REally good advice, execpt the ONLY part

On extremely slippery surfaces such as mud, wet grass or ice, use only the rear brake. The reason for this is that it if the front wheel "washes out" under braking, it almost always results in the bike falling. I'll agree with all except that you can and should learn how to lock the front and recover. The feelings you get from locking the front wheel are very similar to letting go of the front brake and if you don't train to leanr them you will pull harder and longer and then you will fall over. But if you can "feel" the front locking (or tucking as we often say) then letting go of the brake momentarily will result in it hooking up again (unless you found that diesel patch we all hate, but then you were doomed anyway

Learn to sit up during hard braking. and take all the weight through your hips and off your arms, locked elbows and weighted arms will result in locked control of the bike

Always be on the lookout for an escape route.

Emergency StoppingAs soon as you stop after an emergency, look behind. There's a high chance you'll have stalled the bike and/or not be in 1st gear. If a car/truck etc is immenently heading towards you at speed then get off the bike and run.

Everyone is different and has a preference to how they brake but the most important thing is practice, practice, practice.

[p.dath]

My thoughts are that we should re-write the section on emergency braking, and base it on factual data rather than personal experience. This is because everyone has different views on the subject, and it is hard to debate those personal views. On the other hand, facts are more clear cut.

I would like to put forward this article as an initial discussion point:
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf
This article was written by the "Promocycle Foundation" (who works as consultants in the field of motorcycle safety) where they conducted 298 emergency stops, and determined the most important factors when performing an emergency stop.
I think this would form a good factual basis for the wiki article.

[YellowDog]

Revised Emergency Braking Section:

1. Buy a bike with ABS.
2. Squeeze the front and stamp on the back brake as hard as you like.
3. Enjoy living longer.

But yes I do agree with a lot of what you have said; especially with the front braking, which can be extremely dangerous, particularly at low speeds.

[scracha]

I think this would form a good factual basis for the wiki article.

Was basing it partly on experience, partly on motorcycle magazines but mostly on DSA advice given to me when I was an instructor (for a very short time) in the UK. Find a study that covers the issue using more than a handful of riders and in adverse weather and surface conditions. For every study that says one thing, there's a dozen others that have a different conclusion.

Aside from the issue of "front first vs back first" which I mention in the Wiki as being contentious (most studies say front then back, but I personally think it's dependent on bike type and center of gravity) I don't think I contradict the study you reference in any way? I'm of the front first opinion. I could argue
Why would I want to compress the rear?
Why would I really give a stuff about reducing the chance of the rear reducing traction?
How does the rear brake compress the front?
How does it place more braking force over the front wheel...you know...the wheel that in dry conditions is providing around 95% of the braking force".
I could go on but the front vs back first argument has been going on for years. The fact that it's still often debated should probably be mentioned in the wiki.

"Rear brake only", yeah, bit ambiguous so it should be reworded "Use just the rear brake during slow speed maneuvers"

Totally disagree about covering the front brake all the time for new riders. First thing they do is panic and grab a handfull.

Also disagree about 2 or 3 finger braking. For new riders, we're not talking about 6 piston radial calipers...we're talking ginny 250's and hyobags. 2 finger braking on one of these babies is likely to result in trapped fingers and hitting things a lot harder.

Throttle position in emergency stop has very little overall effect on braking distance and for a newish rider, it's far more important that they're concentrating on squeezing the brakes as quickly as possible and looking where they are going than worrying about if they've closed the throttle or what gear they're in.

I think you're missing the point anyhoo. The main points I emphasised for a new rider is to avoid hazards and practise practise practice,

1. Buy a bike with ABS.
2. Squeeze the front and stamp on the back brake as hard as you like.
3. Enjoy living longer.

Ha..I actually liked that. Yeah, there should be a bit about ABS in there. The Wiki thingie is just a starter and should be added to as peeps see fit.

Perhaps a bit about using the rear brake on some bikes to settle it into a turn. Also about using the back brake a little if running a bit hot in a corner. Maybe about using the front brake to slow down a LOT more than the rear. Still need to get the focus on anticipating hazards (thus avoiding emergency stops) and looking for escape routes.

There should be loads of other articles for new riders such as
"get professional instruction, don't just ask your mates or take your dad's word as gospel"
"don't ride along hugging the left hand kerb"
"you will more than likely crash so get some good gear"






Oh discussion thing. The Wiki thingie has a discussion part and I personally think we should be discussing it there.

[p.dath]

...Oh discussion thing. The Wiki thingie has a discussion part and I personally think we should be discussing it there.

But it doesn't work very well. It doesn't indicate you said what, and it is not threaded. There's no indication when new comments have been added. This forum works tonnes better at discussions.

[p.dath]

scracha, you seem quite knowledgable. Would you like to update the wiki article and incorporate some of the ideas above?

I think it would be good to also site some reference study (like they do on the real wikipedia) to support your view point. Otherwise I think we run the risk of people changing the article back and forward according to their view, rather than it being an authoritative article of fact.

Perhaps over time several references might be quoted showing the range of commonly held opinion.

[Hitcher]

1. Buy a bike with ABS.

All bikes come fitted with ABS as standard equipment.

[OutForADuck]

My thoughts are that we should re-write the section on emergency braking, and base it on factual data rather than personal experience. This is because everyone has different views on the subject, and it is hard to debate those personal views. On the other hand, facts are more clear cut.

I would like to put forward this article as an initial discussion point:
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf
This article was written by the "Promocycle Foundation" (who works as consultants in the field of motorcycle safety) where they conducted 298 emergency stops, and determined the most important factors when performing an emergency stop.
I think this would form a good factual basis for the wiki article.

Good article p.dath, was well worth the read. I was surprised for instance that de-clutching (even on the cruiser, where the back brake makes more of a difference) made for a faster stop.

[YellowDog]

All bikes come fitted with ABS as standard equipment.

Since getting and ABS bike I do use the back brake a great deal more than before. This is because I know it won't lock at a crucial moment.

Most people I know, other than when moving slowly, don't use the back brake at all.

IME - You are able to maintain greater control over the bike when using both front and back brakes appropriately rather than just the front (like most I know do). Changing down gear early is also a big help.

[Benk]

Downshifts under normal braking - blipping can smooth things out but modulating the clutch by letting it out slowly and feeling what the bike is doing is a far more important skill. The clutch is not good gradual control and expensive when you wear it out. You should try to learn how to ride smoothly shifting with the clutch (or without when you get better) as if the clutch was a switch. Blipping the throttle will allow you to do this effectively.. Takes practice but becomes completely automatic after a while

Hi guys, just having a nosey here, but I thought the clutch was used to smooth the power from the gearbox to the ground?

The clutch ISNT an on off switch, and isnt supposed to be. Thats why its a clutch. Replacing a clutch is cheap, replacing a gearbox is expensive.

[Benk]

"you will more than likely crash so get some good gear"

Good advice bro. What do you use?

[The Stranger:Me]

I would like to put forward this article as an initial discussion point:
http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

Ah, yeah, how many of us have outriggers, or for that matter a significant weight aft of the rear axle (of course the rear just gained additional stopping power)?
I would have to read it again to get actual figures, but from memory about 2/3 of the attempts were excluded as they were non compliant. If experienced riders can't get it right 2/3 of the time is it really an appropriate method. You can't rewind and take another shot, it may well be curtains.

Plus this topic has been done to death.

[sil3nt]

Is this statement wrong?

Most experts say to apply the rear brake momentarily before the front. If braking is done the other way, it causes the back of a bike to sag and reduces weight over the front tyre. However it's irrelevant as for most riders (inexperienced or otherwise), when they grab the brakes their hand reaches the front lever quicker than the foot presses the back.

Shouldn't it say apply the front first?

[NDORFN]

I don't use the rear brake at all, ever. Maybe if I was riding something with a particuarly heavy rear wheel I'd give it a very light tap to kill the momentum, but I'd never use the rear as a form of deceleration. I prefer to devote any momentary thought that's left after spending the majoriy of my attention on front braking and riding position to collision avoidance. That little split second it would take to tell my right foot to help out is a split second that can be spent telling my balls to pitch in and get some more lean on or get ready to make a safe bail.