Emergency Braking

[sinfull]

To reduce the tendency for the bike to pitch forward and top out the rear end and make it feel light.




Because of the reduced stability.




It squats/pulls down the rear end and keeps the bike flatter.

Try this for yourself to demonstrate. Do a hard complete stop using both brakes up to a set of traffic lights, say. Keep holding both brakes on after you have come to a complete stop for a couple of seconds... now release the rear brake pedal only. You will probably feel the back end of the bike rise up.




It gives the bike more stability and a pushing down into the road feeling rather than a rising and floating feeling. This encourages you to go harder on the front brake.

All the new ABS systems coming out are also linked systems for this reason. It is to increase stability by reducing a bike's tendency to pitch forward and lift the rear end if using front brake only.

Have you actually seen this guy ride lol talk about defy gravity !

I hope that one day if the need arises, i can have the calmness you portrayed in the above post, to gently touch the back brake, so to enduce the correct pitch, while i avoid the gentleman or lady who has just PULLED THE FUCK IN FRONT OF ME !

Have you ever seen the dude you quoted in your post defy gravity ? If not, you should lol, elbows and thighs

Touch the rear to stop the bike pitching forward when you apply the front brake my arse !!! Yes my arse pitches forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A/ If you are worried your arse may lose traction, soften the rear rebound so the rear travells north faster (if it slaps your arse, harden it up a tad) (but did you realllllllly try to emergency brake )
B/ stay off the rear brake, It's only good for white lines or grass !

[scracha]

who wrote that shit.. if i had time i'd comment.

Me ya coont...before other folks edited it

Negative. Read the study at the beginning of the thread. The Motorcycle road code says to apply the rear brake as well.

So what...other more important..sorry...countries with larger populations say use the front brake first.

>hy would I want to compress the rear?
To reduce the tendency for the bike to pitch forward and top out the rear end and make it feel light.

But wouldn't I want to keep the centre of gravity high and have the bike to pitch forward to increase the force over the front wheel?

>Why would I really give a stuff about reducing the chance of the rear
>reducing traction?
Because of the reduced stability.

But if I don't use much rear brake won't the rear wheel keep spinning and have a nice gyroscopic effect to stop it going sideways. I'm not Jay Lawrence and always find my bike going sideways if I so much as touch the rear brake when racing.

>How does the rear brake compress the front?
It squats/pulls down the rear end and keeps the bike flatter.

So I'll ask again, how does the rear brake compress the front?

Try this for yourself to demonstrate. Do a hard complete stop using both brakes up to a set of traffic lights, say. Keep holding both brakes on after you have come to a complete stop for a couple of seconds... now release the rear brake pedal only. You will probably feel the back end of the bike rise up.

Soo...umm...how does this compress the front?

>How does it place more braking force over the front wheel...you know...the
>wheel that in dry conditions is providing around 95% of the braking force".
It gives the bike more stability and a pushing down into the road feeling rather than a rising and floating feeling. This encourages you to go harder on the front brake.

But I want the "pushing down in the road feeling" on the front tyre, since that's why there's nice long forks to absorb all these forces and lots of pistons and twin discs to slow it down ?

All the new ABS systems coming out are also linked systems for this reason. It is to increase stability by reducing a bike's tendency to pitch forward and lift the rear end if using front brake only.

Disagree. They're linked because bikes stop quicker using both brakes. Not just for lazy riders like me that only use the front in the dry (I struggle to reach the rear on sportsbikes and I'm more worried about it locking up then the minimal additional braking force it gives me) but research on our poorly trained motorcycling cousins shows that a hell of a lot of them go splat because they're only using the REAR brake. ABS is more stable because when a wheel locks up it releases. Show me an ABS system on a sportsbike that applies the rear first and I'll perhaps give the "back brake first" theory some weight.

[mossy1200]

You forget that bikes with linked brakes send more power to front than rear due to calipers and disc size.
Rear brakes have small disc and single pot calipers and use of the rear is an assist to stoping unless you want to almost stand on the rear lever.
Rear brake lowers the bike and loads force onto the front without increased tendancy to fully compress the front shocks as quicky therefore the rear wheel is less likely to lift off the ground than if you suddenly jam on the front.If you think this is wrong apply some rear at 100ks and then say your bike doesnt lower front and rear.
Cruisers will often get better results than a light sports bike as they have longer wheel base and softer shocks.But if you also look at the nature of a sports bikes rear brake system as being light on stoping power you will relise thats it was never intended to do much more than help out with the task of stoping.
I guess you could lobby with manufactures to have rear brakes removed from production if you think they are a waste of time.Then we could save a few hundred on each bike we buy.

[sinfull]

Disagree. They're linked because bikes stop quicker using both brakes. Not just for lazy riders like me that only use the front in the dry (I struggle to reach the rear on sportsbikes and I'm more worried about it locking up then the minimal additional braking force it gives me) but research on our poorly trained motorcycling cousins shows that a hell of a lot of them go splat because they're only using the REAR brake. ABS is more stable because when a wheel locks up it releases. Show me an ABS system on a sportsbike that applies the rear first and I'll perhaps give the "back brake first" theory some weight.

Agree to disagree !! Under hard braking my arse tends to waggle round horrendously as it is ! Perhaps it has to do with the fact i have mediocure standard supension, but i wouldn't like to add a touch of the back brake to it !

Rear brake lowers the bike and loads force onto the front without increased tendancy to fully compress the front shocks as quicky therefore the rear wheel is less likely to lift off the ground than if you suddenly jam on the front..

It is something you have said twice now and sinking in springs to mind !
I'm tending to want to give it some thought whilst coming down the pit straight at manfeild !!!
But not however when some Coooont pulls out in front of me !
Which Mossy, (my learnered and possibly faster on the track friend) is what the thread was about ! Emergency braking for learners !~

I say again learners should take it to the track and try these ideas !
I quite possibly may have learnt something new today and will be testing this theory at the track ! Writes it down, writes it down before i have to go back to this post to remember tonight bwahahahahahaha !

[mossy1200]

Agree to disagree !! Under hard braking my arse tends to waggle round horrendously as it is ! Perhaps it has to do with the fact i have mediocure standard supension, but i wouldn't like to add a touch of the back brake to it !


It is something you have said twice now and sinking in springs to mind !
I'm tending to want to give it some thought whilst coming down the pit straight at manfeild !!!
But not however when some Coooont pulls out in front of me !
Which Mossy, (my learnered and possibly faster on the track friend) is what the thread was about ! Emergency braking for learners !~

I say again learners should take it to the track and try these ideas !
I quite possibly may have learnt something new today and will be testing this theory at the track ! Writes it down, writes it down before i have to go back to this post to remember tonight bwahahahahahaha !

The thing is if you use the both then in emergency you also use both.
The real effects are in the wet.Moderation on the rear is the key.
Also I used to own cbr1100x and was always front brake only guy prior.
Then when upgraded bike started notice difference from using one to both.More at higher speeds.
Now I ride bonneville on the road and the front brake(one only) is not brilliant
so I use both and even use the back to control rate of decent.If you ever ride a new t100 you will understand how poor the front brake is by itself.

[sinfull]

The thing is if you use the both then in emergency you also use both.
The real effects are in the wet.Moderation on the rear is the key.
Also I used to own cbr1100x and was always front brake only guy prior.
Then when upgraded bike started notice difference from using one to both.More at higher speeds.
Now I ride bonneville on the road and the front brake(one only) is not brilliant
so I use both and even use the back to control rate of decent.If you ever ride a new t100 you will understand how poor the front brake is by itself.

Just bought an interstate today lol (goes back to the post where it says find an escape route)

[mossy1200]

I guess the idea is to find what works best for you and your bike then use that method all the time so that its second nature in an emergency.Its easy to cruise and go with the flow but you need to ride like everyone is likely to take you out at any moment.Cause than can and often do.
Lazy riding doesnt promote a great responce if you need to stop quick.

[dipshit]

(but did you realllllllly try to emergency brake )

Was attending a rider training day recently when the instructor was getting us to do front brake only emergency stops from 100kph. My shortest stopping distance was my first run when i used both front and rear in my normal fashion. It was a good stop - as short as anybody else managed to do that day.

Several front only runs overshot my first mark. I just wasn't getting the feedback and stability and stuck to the road feeling i could get with both.

[sinfull]

Was attending a rider training day recently when the instructor was getting us to do front brake only emergency stops from 100kph. My shortest stopping distance was my first run when i used both front and rear in my normal fashion. It was a good stop - as short as anybody else managed to do that day.

Several front only runs overshot my first mark. I just wasn't getting the feedback and stability and stuck to the road feeling i could get with both.

And after reading Mossy's post again and letting it sink in, i could see where the point your making IE: Having the bike settle on the suspension, could help in stopping distance but again, practice ? I got the track ! Perhaps the WIKI should just have the address of this rider training day, rather than any number of learners point of view ?
I can appreciate the debate thats gone on here today and have perhaps learnt from it (won't know till i test this)
But can still see problems if a learner rider reads the thread and then comes across an emergency situation, where he thinks back brake first ! Helllo, sideways !!!!
My suspension is set hard in compression clicks (not altered it since track) but yet to be tested in an emergency on the road ! For some unknown reason i'm not so interested in road riding anymore !

[dipshit]

But wouldn't I want to keep the centre of gravity high and have the bike to pitch forward to increase the force over the front wheel?

No. Not for stability and quick stopping anyhow. The trend to pitch the front down is for steepening the rake for helping to turn into corners. It isn't necessarily the best thing for stopping quickly.

But if I don't use much rear brake won't the rear wheel keep spinning and have a nice gyroscopic effect to stop it going sideways. I'm not Jay Lawrence and always find my bike going sideways if I so much as touch the rear brake when racing.

That's why i think sometimes you race guys don't actually know everything like you think you do.

So I'll ask again, how does the rear brake compress the front?

Compresses the whole bike down.

But I want the "pushing down in the road feeling" on the front tyre, since that's why there's nice long forks to absorb all these forces and lots of pistons and twin discs to slow it down ?

In this vid at 2:20 a Honda tech starts talking about the stability and preventing dive from using both brakes together on their linked ABS system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqwIm8pH8z0

Disagree. They're linked because bikes stop quicker using both brakes.

And isn't that the whole point of it?

Show me an ABS system on a sportsbike that applies the rear first and I'll perhaps give the "back brake first" theory some weight.

I don't think I apply the rear brake first. I would say virtually at the same time. Just touching the rear brake... not trying to stop the bike with it... at the same time as easing on the front brake and then going harder and harder on it.

Take a look at the attachment below. A big heavy BMW with linked ABS and a Duolever front end that doesn't dive much under brakes anyhow absolutely cleaned up a 675 in a braking test. I really don't think a high centre of gravity and lots of pitch forwards is the best for stopping quickly.

[p.dath]

And after reading Mossy's post again and letting it sink in, i could see where the point your making IE: Having the bike settle on the suspension, could help in stopping distance but again, practice ? I got the track ! Perhaps the WIKI should just have the address of this rider training day, rather than any number of learners point of view ?
I can appreciate the debate thats gone on here today and have perhaps learnt from it (won't know till i test this)
But can still see problems if a learner rider reads the thread and then comes across an emergency situation, where he thinks back brake first ! Helllo, sideways !!!!
My suspension is set hard in compression clicks (not altered it since track) but yet to be tested in an emergency on the road ! For some unknown reason i'm not so interested in road riding anymore !

Did you read the research article that was sited? The testing they did was pretty comprehensive, and they did more emergency brake tests than most of us will ever do in our life times. It guess its hard letting facts speak for themselves.

[sinfull]

Did you read the research article that was sited? The testing they did was pretty comprehensive, and they did more emergency brake tests than most of us will ever do in our life times. It guess its hard letting facts speak for themselves.

And i say again, Practice ! Or should i tell my daughter that it's ok to do as P.dath says cause it's what is written down !!!! No i did not read it ! Why would i read a research artical about a test rider (with obviously a high skill level) testing theories ? I'll leave that up to you theorists !
No i'm sorry my friend ! I hit the front first because i have slid sideways into a car, i have also slid sideways into a ditch ! both on cruisers, both due to using the back brake ! Have you ?
No ! Perhaps not !

[p.dath]

And i say again, Practice ! Or should i tell my daughter that it's ok to do as P.dath says cause it's what is written down !!!! No i did not read it ! Why would i read a research artical about a test rider (with obviously a high skill level) testing theories ? I'll leave that up to you theorists !
No i'm sorry my friend ! I hit the front first because i have slid sideways into a car, i have also slid sideways into a ditch ! both on cruisers, both due to using the back brake ! Have you ?
No ! Perhaps not !

Actually it was a whole bunch of test riders on a couple of different bikes, and they analysed the factors from all of them to determine the best method of stopping in the shortest time.

The best way of saving your daughters life would be to get her to practice the approach they found best.

Then again, you could try doing 800 odd emergency braking tests like they did across a couple of different bikes with many different riders and come to a better conclusion.
As I said, they probably did more emergency braking stops than most of us are likely to do in our whole lifetimes.

[scracha]

As I said, they probably did more emergency braking stops than most of us are likely to do in our whole lifetimes.

Used to demonstrate about 4 every Saturday morning and a few more if I was working Sundays and evenings. Commuting in and out of Edinburgh also resulted in far too frequent emergency stops.

That's why i think sometimes you race guys don't actually know everything like you think you do

First time I've been called a "race guy". I've only been racing 3 seasons. Until I started racing I pretty much rode on the road every day (14 years)

I never once recommended using only front brake BTW (on the track I avoid it cos it normally results in my ending on the grass but i've never told anyone to only use the front on the road)

In the original wiki thingie I gave my arguments for front momentarily before back. I acknowledged that some studies say back before front. I explained that some bikes react differently to others. I used the phrase "practise, practise, practise". If you guys want to change the wiki then go ahead. I felt my original post was pretty balanced.

[sinfull]

Then again, you could try doing 800 odd emergency braking tests like they did across a couple of different bikes with many different riders and come to a better conclusion.
As I said, they probably did more emergency braking stops than most of us are likely to do in our whole lifetimes.

Perhaps i might just do that many in the next 6 months or so ! While you sit and read your theories p.dath !
You will i hope note, that my interest in the wiki has deminished in the last day or so !
I first thought Cool, somewhere for newcomers to motorcycling to pick up tips !
But it turns out it's somewhere for theorists to post their theories !! (Oh with many back up articals they may have read, i might add)
Something i might add to the Wiki !!!
Don't sit and read too much, as it will only distract you from the fact, that you will only learn where your or your bikes capabilities lie, by riding your bike !

You i believe (i could be wrong, but not too often) are all talk, with very little practical experience behind you !