Oil types?

[Quasievil]

There was a guy on the old VFR forum who was an oil engineer, and who did extensive work on oil testing. His studies showed that the Mobil synthetic for cars was perfectly fine for use in bikes, and in fact more betterer, as it contained a better additive package, and was usually able to be bought cheaper! He found no evidence whatsoever of it causing clutch slippage, contrary to what has long been espoused on Teh Interdweeb.
Other than that, he opined that the best value oil for bikes was a reasonable quality diesel oil, as it was usually cheap (especially in bulk packs) and had exceptional longevity and detergent properties, due to the harsh demands of diesel engines.

Hello, Mr Mobil here (Im the BDM for Mobil Taupo to Auckland for Mobil) Im not an engineer but have access to them and I have been extensively trained by Mobil etc.

The official word is this, for bikes use bike oil (not car oil) for cars use Car oil not bike oil and so on............easy eh !
Mobil certainly wont endorse any car oil in bike scenario, because some engineer some where decided it was ok.

For your bike Magicmonkey I would have thought (from our range) a Mobil Extra 4T 10w-40 a semi synthetic.

But there are plenty of options out there.

If I can explain the differences between Mineral and sythetic oils for you in a easy easy way, think of it like this

The oil they use to make your engine oil (the raw oil) is called Basestock, Basestocks have different groups, group 1 to group 5, each group has different levels of quality the higher grades are used for synthetics and the lower grades are used for mineral based oil as well as a host of other things.
These are extracted in a refinery tower , lower basestock grades are taken from the lower/mid part and higher basestock grades from the top, the top tower basestocks are generally gas.

So know you understand this

the higher base stocks are gas and the PAO (polyalpholefin) is used to make synthetic oil, the advantage of this PAO as a basestock is this.........All the molecules are exactly the same size, please think of a row of marbles in a line all the same size)

The lower Basestock grades disadvantage is this.........all the molecules a different sizes (think of a beach ball, a volley ball, a rugby ball, and a few umbrellas)

now imagine this

Between the two surfaces of your engine, i.e. the piston and the cylinder, the temperature between these surfaces is very very hot (naturally) so to stop them fusing together and melting (and a heap of other things) we cool the engine with coolants etc but most importantly OIL

now Imagine this

To keep the two surfaces oiled so they stay lubricated and run over each of there surfaces in the most efficient way, which of the two oils will do it better ?????

1. A row of marbles of the same size?
2. Abeach ball, a volley ball, a rugby ball, and a few umbrellas

Clearly the answer is number one !!! (Mobil 1 read later)

Ok so with this smooth efficent running of your engine what are the advantages?

Higher Viscosity index.........reduces engine wear at temp extremes
Low temp performance...... Oil gets to where its needed faster
Lower volitilty .................... Reduced oil consumption
Increased Oxidative stability...... slows down the rate of oil thickening

so these give you avantages like, less Friction.......less friction means less energy........means less gas used......higher efficency......longer engine life (the list goes on and on but you get the point)

So why Mobil 1, it is the worlds leader in Synthetic technology.........we can legally say that as its true!!

Since the Castrol vs Mobil case in the states where Castrol decided to market Mineral oil as Synthetic (they won WTF) many companies now offer a synthetic option which is highly refined beach balls rugby balls and umbrellas, they are legally allowed to do this.

Mobil have stuck to the PAO for its base stock (I will note however some Mobil synthetics have a small group III content to balance the additive packages)

Anyway I hope that helps you understand oil a bit better.

[CookMySock]

It's very important to match the recommended SAE spec. That is, you should not be using a 15W40 oil where a 10W30 is required in high-speed motorcycle engines, or they will wedge the thicker oil up and spin a bearing inside a housing.

All modern oils should exceed the required API spec by a wide margin, unless it's a very modern fuel-injected engine, or a very heavily loaded one.

You should be able to mix oils from different manufacturers, provided the SAE spec is similar. You can quite safely add a 300ml top-up of 5W30 to a 10W30 fill, but you should never add any quantity of a 20W50 oil to a motorcycle crankcase, for any reason.

Thin oils for high-revving engines is the rule, unless the engine has been properly clearanced to suit the thicker oil. Ie, better engine rebuilders will ask you what engine oil you will be running, and build the engine to suit.

Steve

[Flip]

There is fa difference between a 15W40 and a 10W30. The lower number (in say 15W40) describes the viscosity of the oil at 40 deg C as being the same as a straight 15 weight oil and the higher number at describes the viscosity at 100 deg C as a 40 weight oil. The viscosity index (VI) additive that they use to achieve this is like gorilla snot is not particularly share stable and is busted up in MC gearboxes, that’s the major (but not the only reason) bike oil thin quickly with age.

The serviceability rating or the SF, SG, SH etc is the quality of the oil to survive punishment and still protect your motor and it’s tested in real motors so it’s not theoretical. The higher the 2nd letter the better the oil. There is a bit more to it than this because as motor tek has improved the motors require special or new additive like detergent's in the 50's and low potassium to protect the modern cats nowdays, as long as the 2nd letter is the same or higher its fine to put in a better quality oil than the motor maker recommends.

The thing to understand is that all motor oils are basically compatible with each other, it's best not to mix them because you will thin out some of the additives and some of the bits they add in synthetic oils just don’t work well in dino feed stocks and vice versa. Woffel woffel woffel but in an emergency its fine to mix them, not quite the right oil is much better than no oil.

Basically:
• Don't put heavy gear box oils in your motor.
• Mixed fleet lubes ie light diesel oils are fine for bikes.
• You usually get what you pay for.
• A lower quality oil that is being regally changed is better than a super expensive oil that is worn out and stuffed.

Finally all motor oils are tested in standard industry car motors not bike motors.

[Corse1]

Just changed oil in mine. 2 litres of VSX4 15W 50 fully synthetic and 1.5 litres of SX4 15W 50 synthetic fortified. Same brand and same weight/viscosity. I'm not going to sweat it. change every 3-4k kilometers

[AllanB]

It's very important to match the recommended SAE spec. That is, you should not be using a 15W40 oil where a 10W30 is required in high-speed motorcycle engines, or they will wedge the thicker oil up and spin a bearing inside a housing. Steve

You'll like this one then Steve ......... Honda Hornet 900 (or 919 in the USA) from new in 02 the factory book says 10w 40. In the USA this changed in 06 or 07 to 10w30 out of the blue. The reason is some legal shit law about being energy conserving for fuel or something, so Honda changed the oil weight!

And YES you may go from mineral to semi-synth or full or full to semi or any combo. Just drain the old stuff well and change the filter. There is heaps of bullshit on the net about oil. I wasted hours of my life reading most of it! Lots of the big oil makers have sites with FAQ sections dealing with subjects like this.

As a side note some bikes react differently to different brands of oil. mine is one of them. The Hornet has a shall we say average feeling gear box. This has been greatly improved by using Motul 5100 (I was running Castrol semi-synth - never again).

[Blackbird]

As a side note some bikes react differently to different brands of oil. mine is one of them. The Hornet has a shall we say average feeling gear box. This has been greatly improved by using Motul 5100 (I was running Castrol semi-synth - never again).

Now that's interesting Allan - had EXACTLY the same experience with my Blackbird and stuck with Motul after that. Just goes to show that there is some variation in oil characteristics between brands. I suspect that the Hornet and 'bird had pretty much the same design of gearbox.

[avgas]

Pick an oil to suit the characteristics of the bike. And always flush with a good diesel oil first (10 km run in this oil is the best way to flush it).
I found for big singles, Visco 5000 (5w50) was AWESOME, changed the bike completely to have a bit more pick-up, but the torque was affected.
I would recommend the 10w40 for a 4 cylinder as its a nice middle of the road, with a bit of performance when it gets warm. 15w40 if its more a sports tourer. 15w50 seems to suit the big off roaders. BMW's love the stuff.

Oh avoid stuff that has additives in it too.

[steelestring]

Now that's interesting Allan - had EXACTLY the same experience with my Blackbird and stuck with Motul after that. Just goes to show that there is some variation in oil characteristics between brands. I suspect that the Hornet and 'bird had pretty much the same design of gearbox.

Yip.. was a mobil freak forever (mobil 1 for the 4g63t also) and by the off chance I couldnt get it from the bike shop I was @ and bingo!!!!
Motul 5100 gears on the zxr and the zx6 are smooth as silk... I can definitely tell when my oil is getting slightly poked by the gear changes.
I have just mixed 2 motul 5100 together and was wondering about useing them.... both are about the same 10-40 and 15-50 same additives ect also.
What do ya reckon?
I used the fully synthetic motul flash stuff in the little zxr and it screamed with pleasure!! If only I could afford that stuff every oil change
But I have not bought myself round to use the mix yet....

[CookMySock]

2 litres of VSX4 15W 50 fully synthetic and 1.5 litres of SX4 15W 50 synthetic fortified. Same brand and same weight/viscosity

Erk, I wouldn't be doing that. I think that will pinch something. Will you tell us if it does, or will you keep it quiet? I don't think thick oils like that should be used in bike engines.

Honda Hornet 900 (or 919 in the USA) from new in 02 the factory book says 10w 40. In the USA this changed in 06 or 07 to 10w30 out of the blue. The reason is some legal shit law about being energy conserving for fuel or something, so Honda changed the oil weight!

Mechanically, that should be fine. Going to a thinner oil doesn't hurt anything - maybe you might loose a little oil pressure at idle on an older engine. Going to a thicker oil is where the harm can be done. Rings emphatically do not like thick oil - they gunk up and stick in their grooves, and a real thick oil will pinch a bearing or tuck a ring if you rev it cold.

As a side note some bikes react differently to different brands of oil. mine is one of them. The Hornet has a shall we say average feeling gear box. This has been greatly improved by using Motul 5100 (I was running Castrol semi-synth - never again).

I had exactly the same experience. I took my hyo 650 from castrol gps up to castrol synthetic, and the whole bike felt completely different. Engine vibration was way way down (dissapointingly so - its a vtwin) and the gearbox became soooper smooth, except for now it decided to have false neutrals. Bugger!! So I went back to GPS.

Steve

[Quasievil]

Oh avoid stuff that has additives in it too.

So what youre saying is Antiwear agents anti foamers etc are no good ?
Tha would surprise alot of people, what do you base this on exactly?

[CookMySock]

So what youre saying is Antiwear agents anti foamers etc are no good ?
Tha would surprise alot of people, what do you base this on exactly?

Most likely what he meant was, "avoid engine oils with inadequate base stocks, and excessive additive packages", like mobile one for example.



Steve

[Quasievil]

Most likely what he meant was, "avoid engine oils with inadequate base stocks, and excessive additive packages", like mobile one for example.



Steve

Is Mobile one a cellphone company..............Idiot

What is not recommended is modifying any oil with products like Wynns and STP

[CookMySock]

Is Mobile one a cellphone company..............Idiot

What is not recommended is modifying any oil with products like Wynns and STP

I'm just pulling your chain, you dolt.

I agree not to unduly fortify oils.

Steve

[Woodman]

It's very important to match the recommended SAE spec. That is, you should not be using a 15W40 oil where a 10W30 is required in high-speed motorcycle engines, or they will wedge the thicker oil up and spin a bearing inside a housing.

All modern oils should exceed the required API spec by a wide margin, unless it's a very modern fuel-injected engine, or a very heavily loaded one.

You should be able to mix oils from different manufacturers, provided the SAE spec is similar. You can quite safely add a 300ml top-up of 5W30 to a 10W30 fill, but you should never add any quantity of a 20W50 oil to a motorcycle crankcase, for any reason.

Thin oils for high-revving engines is the rule, unless the engine has been properly clearanced to suit the thicker oil. Ie, better engine rebuilders will ask you what engine oil you will be running, and build the engine to suit.

Steve

Disagree, if you are running your engine at high revs a lot then its a good idea to up the running viscosity to a 40 or 50. The thing to look out for is the s rating, most car oils now are up to sm rating.
do you really think that a thicker oil will pinch something? has this happened to someone you know?

[CookMySock]

do you really think that a thicker oil will pinch something? has this happened to someone you know?

Thicker oil will push a larger oil wedge in front of it at high rpm, and put a lot of rotational force on the outer bearing shell. Eventually you will spin the outer in the housing, destroying it.

Anyway, that is my understanding of it. Explain why this is wrong?

Steve