The ACC saga - a new approach.

[Berries]

Any chance you could give us a similar analysis of your observations of the motorcycle fatality stats from the other thread?

Well ok, but only because I read so much stuff on KB that bears no relationship to what I see in real life when it comes to crash causes. And I am enjoying the bunfight between you and Shrub.

So anyway, I have had a closer look at the 49 fatal crashes last year. Nineteen were single bike only and 30 involved another party, some of which were bike vs bike.

Fault. Well in the single vehicle crashes fault of some kind has been attributed to every rider. This is not surprising as if you lose control you are at fault according to CAS, and in only one of those crashes where this did happen were any road factors mentioned – wet road and some surface bleeding. In multi vehicle crashes fault is less obvious using CAS. If five vehicles are involved then it is feasible that they are all partly at fault so the numbers don’t add up. I therefore looked at the crash reports and the codes so that only the two prime vehicles have fault attributed and I came up with the following. Rider at fault in 33 crashes, other vehicle/person at fault 11 crashes, shared fault three crashes and other (ie bike or road fault) two crashes. In the 30 multi vehicle crashes CAS shows the prime fault as rider in 15 and other vehicle in 13. More info may be gleaned from coroners or SCU reports but I don’t have access to all of them, and normally any relevant information would be backcoded in to CAS

To get the others at fault out of the way first. The AA said four car drivers were at fault. Well we have failing to give way coming out of a driveway or intersection, turning right in front of riders, swinging wide on a curve, losing control on a curve and a u-turn on a corner accounting for seven crashes, then two where the blame was shared where the car was doing a u-turn which may have been safe if the motorbike hadn’t been speeding, in one case 50 over the limit. One other where fault was with both parties and then two involving trucks failing to give way when pulling out of intersections, plus one other truck fault.

But they are the minority. Riders were at fault in multi vehicle crashes more than the other driver. A number of these would likely have been single vehicle crashes if a car hadn’t been coming the other way when a rider crossed the centre line on a left hand bend. Perhaps if there had not been a head on some of them would not have been fatal either.

Bike only crashes, well, it has to be said there are some idiots out there. But in many cases, it could have been me. In a lot of crashes it appears as if the rider misjudged the corner and arrived too fast, but under the speed limit, then panic braked or just left the road and hit something hard. There are a couple of high speed crashes, 170km/h suspected in one, and a 150km/h pursuit in another, but the rest were normal road speeds. A few bikes with no WOF for a number of years, but no indication as to whether the bike had any faults apart from in one crash. Alcohol was factor in a few crashes as well. One thing to remember is that there are usually no witnesses to a single vehicle crash, apart from the first on scene who might say that the bike overtook them at speed a few minutes earlier.

I guess many people on KB will know some of the riders involved and like Shrub said somewhere else, some of you may have actually been at the scene. So just a few facts for you based on the 33 ‘at fault’ riders –

Average age 35
32 of them male
One bike under 250cc
Three bikes 250 to 599cc
Fifteen bikes 600 to 1000cc
Nine bikes over 1000cc
Five with engine size unknown although at least a couple were over 900cc.

Full licence 15
Learner 4
Restricted 2
No bike licence 6
Disqualified 4
Suspended 1
No licence 1

Of those riders involved in fatal crashes who were suspended, disqualified or who didn’t have a bike licence, 92% were at fault. I guess it is an attitude thing, often they were the ones with the bikes with no WOF. Road conditions - ice was a factor in one crash, wet roads in seven, the other 25 were all dry. In 71% of all the fatal crashes the speed limit was 80 or 100km/h, ie non urban.

So they’re the facts according to TPTB. Throwing in my own opinion now, there were only two crashes that would appear to have been unavoidable, a tyre blow out causing a loss of control, and an oil spill that took out four bikes. The rest, well they are sad for all involved, but apart from a couple of idiots they were all needless deaths, whether you blame the rider or the car driver.

There were ‘only’ 49 crashes, not enough to make valid assumptions about the riding population as a whole, especially when the difference between getting killed and getting away with it can be a matter of millimetres or seconds. The main stat in my view is this. In two thirds of the fatal crashes involving motorbikes last year the rider was deemed to be at fault. This corresponds with my own view of motorbike crashes in general, that 1/3 are the rider on his own, 1/3 are multi vehicle where the other vehicle is at fault and 1/3 are multi vehicle where the rider is at fault. Stop blaming the cagers is all I would say. You can’t influence them, so just look after number one.

[MSTRS:Me]

Stop blaming the cagers is all I would say. You can’t influence them, so just look after number one.

Excellent post.
It might be fairer to say - Blame whoever you like, but never forget who is in control of the motorcycle...

[Katman]

Stop blaming the cagers is all I would say.

Thankfully there are signs that seem to indicate the beginning of a widespread realisation that what we have been lead to believe for far too long is not, in fact, the case.

Just like alcoholism or drug addiction, we first must be honest with ourselves and admit there's a problem.

[shrub]

I am enjoying the bunfight between you and Shrub.

So am I. Katman is a worthy adversary, although he doesn't get that I actually agree with almost everything he says. The reason I haven't had an off in 25 years has nothing to do with car drivers and everything to do with the fact that I hate pain even more than I hate looking at a broken motorcycle belonging to me, so I ride to avoid both. I think your stats suggest that 99% of bikers do the same, or at least to the best of their ability because we all know that when we're on a bike we're vulnerable. Riding well is a matter of life and death, and I challenge anyone to find more than a few loonies who disagree.

But your stats about the percentage of people who didn't have the correct licenses speaks volumes: it would suggest that a lot of crashes happen to idiots who don't take motorcycling seriously, and that leads me on to where I differ from Katman.

Yesterday I took the cage to Bunnings to buy some shit, and in a 10km return trip I had to brake hard when a car pull out in front of me, I had to take evasive action when a halfwit changed lanes without indicating and some stupid woman in a people carrier tailgated me. This suggests that a big part of the problem is that too many people don't take driving seriously enough. Even at 50 kmh I am hurling a steel and glass box weighing over a tonne down the road at 15m every second, and surrounded by other steel boxes. I just can't afford to chat to my passenger, eat my pie (mmmm...pie....), adjust my stereo or drift off into oblivion; yet most car drivers do.

It is my belief that it's a miracle that the road toll isn't a brazillian a year because most car drivers don't take driving seriously enough. And that's where Katman and I part company - he believes that the only thing that needs to change is rider behaviour and attitude, whereas i believe that the only thing that needs to change is the attitude and behaviour of ALL road users.

If ALL road users were educated about a little more than the terrible danger of driving at 61 kmh, or driving pissed, then the road toll would plummet. If all road users were shown that they're not just responsible for their own safety, but the safety of the poor prick going to Bunnings in his Bluebird, the lycra boy on the treadly and the bloke riding his bike, then maybe we'd see a change. If ALL road users were shown that driving a car or riding a bike is something that actually takes a lot of skill, then things would change.

But that won't happen.

[Katman]

And that's where Katman and I part company - he believes that the only thing that needs to change is rider behaviour and attitude, whereas i believe that the only thing that needs to change is the attitude and behaviour of ALL road users.

We seem to be getting closer and closer to full agreement then because I have never said that rider behaviour and attitude is the only thing that needs to change.

I agree entirely that improvement across all road users needs to be made but I still maintain that the greatest improvement to our own safety will come from looking within.

I applaud anyone making efforts to improve driving habits but as this is a motorcycle forum the emphasis here needs to be on how to improve riding habits.

[bogan]

If ALL road users were educated about a little more than the terrible danger of driving at 61 kmh, or driving pissed, then the road toll would plummet. If all road users were shown that they're not just responsible for their own safety, but the safety of the poor prick going to Bunnings in his Bluebird, the lycra boy on the treadly and the bloke riding his bike, then maybe we'd see a change. If ALL road users were shown that driving a car or riding a bike is something that actually takes a lot of skill, then things would change.

couldn't agree more with that statement, it could happen, but it would have to be forced, 10 yearly driving tests complete with mandatory remedial classes for people who fail or those with heaps of infringement points. Is that a price we will be prepared to pay for safer roads do you think?

[shrub]

couldn't agree more with that statement, it could happen, but it would have to be forced, 10 yearly driving tests complete with mandatory remedial classes for people who fail or those with heaps of infringement points. Is that a price we will be prepared to pay for safer roads do you think?

It all comes down to how its pitched - we're willing to pay with more speeding tickets etc, because that has been pitched to us. If Our Masters were willing to look at skill instead of the blunt instrument of speeding tickets, we'd all be a lot safer; and that's where we need to come in. We have a much higher stake in raising the overall skill level of all road users than anyone else because a minor clip in traffic pisses car drivers off, but at best injures a motorcyclist. We need to develop a voice that will influence decisions, and while I applaud Katman et al for recognising that we are the first stage in increasing rider safety, it cannot stop there.

[bogan]

It all comes down to how its pitched - we're willing to pay with more speeding tickets etc, because that has been pitched to us. If Our Masters were willing to look at skill instead of the blunt instrument of speeding tickets, we'd all be a lot safer; and that's where we need to come in. We have a much higher stake in raising the overall skill level of all road users than anyone else because a minor clip in traffic pisses car drivers off, but at best injures a motorcyclist. We need to develop a voice that will influence decisions, and while I applaud Katman et al for recognising that we are the first stage in increasing rider safety, it cannot stop there.

Dunno bout willing, but we put up them cos they are avoidable and you only get em for breaking the law. You're right about it being pitched though, all the adds etc that get pinned on crashing due to speed are simply driver inattention, pity they don't do many targetted adds for that, however the intersection wheel was very good.

I agree with you about the first step being us, and as katman says it needs to be done first before we as bikers call for cagers to become safer. However, most of us are also cagers and can call for such things without involving the biker issue at all. I think rather than develop a voice for it we use the existing ones, namely the AA, surely they have covered things like regular driver testing before?

[warewolf]

It is my belief that it's a miracle that the road toll isn't a brazillian a year because most car drivers don't take driving seriously enough. And that's where Katman and I part company - he believes that the only thing that needs to change is rider behaviour and attitude, whereas i believe that the only thing that needs to change is the attitude and behaviour of ALL road users.

If ALL road users were educated about a little more than the terrible danger of driving at 61 kmh, or driving pissed, then the road toll would plummet. If all road users were shown that they're not just responsible for their own safety, but the safety of the poor prick going to Bunnings in his Bluebird, the lycra boy on the treadly and the bloke riding his bike, then maybe we'd see a change. If ALL road users were shown that driving a car or riding a bike is something that actually takes a lot of skill, then things would change.

+1

Inattention and careless lazy driving is not enforced, even if it happens right under the noses of the cops and includes blatant law transgressions. Sometimes the consequences of habitually driving that way is fatal. Driving or riding well is not something that is encouraged.

[warewolf]

I applaud anyone making efforts to improve driving habits but as this is a motorcycle forum the emphasis here needs to be on how to improve riding habits.

Hmmm so you must love BRONZ then for their Ride Right Ride Safe courses, eh? Surely that must count as taking ownership & responsibility for ourselves. Shame LTSA & ACC don't want to support such initiatives.

[shrub]

I agree with you about the first step being us, and as katman says it needs to be done first before we as bikers call for cagers to become safer. However, most of us are also cagers and can call for such things without involving the biker issue at all. I think rather than develop a voice for it we use the existing ones, namely the AA, surely they have covered things like regular driver testing before?

My problem with us getting safer first is that, from my observation, most motorcyclists are significantly more skilled on the road than most car drivers are. Sure there are idiots out there, and any Saturday or Sunday they cluster on the road to Akaroa, or park outside pubs and get pissed, but they are in the minority. I know a lot of bikers and almost without exception they take their riding very seriously, ensure their bikes are maintained to a high standard, wear the best gear they can and don't have crashes. If we wait for the power ranger on his shiny new Gixxer to learn that getting your knee down on the open road is the mark of an idiot, or for the bad ass hard core biker to learn that getting pissed and riding is stupid, we'll be waiting forever. And we can't expect the noob on the GN to master counter steering, or the born again on his Harley to learn road positioning and how to read traffic because skill takes time and/or training.

If we wait for every biker to get his act together we'll be riding flying bikes and taking holidays on the moon before that happens, and in the meantime too many of us will be taken out through inadequate skill by other road users. As the stakeholders with the most to gain from a universal improvement in road skills and driver attitude, we need to get involved in pushing for change now, and demanding change in rider and driver skill concurrently. Instead of saying "we've all lifted our game, now we want everyone else to do the same" we need to say "there are too many idiots and incompetents on the road on bikes and in cars, we want to see that change. Now".

If we make it a universal demand for a change in driving skill and attitude we may just get car drivers, the AA, truck drivers and even cops on our side. It's recognising that we're not the whole problem, we're part of the problem, and if we're going to do something we might as well address the whole problem.

[Katman]

If we make it a universal demand for a change in driving skill and attitude we may just get car drivers, the AA, truck drivers and even cops on our side.

You seriously need to get it in your head that we will not be listened to until we prove ourselves worth listening to.

While we can have such poor statistics thrown back at us we will achieve nothing.

[bogan]

My problem with us getting safer first is that, from my observation, most motorcyclists are significantly more skilled on the road than most car drivers are. Sure there are idiots out there, and any Saturday or Sunday they cluster on the road to Akaroa, or park outside pubs and get pissed, but they are in the minority. I know a lot of bikers and almost without exception they take their riding very seriously, ensure their bikes are maintained to a high standard, wear the best gear they can and don't have crashes. If we wait for the power ranger on his shiny new Gixxer to learn that getting your knee down on the open road is the mark of an idiot, or for the bad ass hard core biker to learn that getting pissed and riding is stupid, we'll be waiting forever. And we can't expect the noob on the GN to master counter steering, or the born again on his Harley to learn road positioning and how to read traffic because skill takes time and/or training.

If we wait for every biker to get his act together we'll be riding flying bikes and taking holidays on the moon before that happens, and in the meantime too many of us will be taken out through inadequate skill by other road users. As the stakeholders with the most to gain from a universal improvement in road skills and driver attitude, we need to get involved in pushing for change now, and demanding change in rider and driver skill concurrently. Instead of saying "we've all lifted our game, now we want everyone else to do the same" we need to say "there are too many idiots and incompetents on the road on bikes and in cars, we want to see that change. Now".

If we make it a universal demand for a change in driving skill and attitude we may just get car drivers, the AA, truck drivers and even cops on our side. It's recognising that we're not the whole problem, we're part of the problem, and if we're going to do something we might as well address the whole problem.

I see what you are saying, and I agree, however I can also see what the cagers will say when bikers tell them to sharpen up, "why, you guys are killing yourselves in far greater numbers than we are"

The angle of cager vs biker accidents is always going to fail imo, as bikers are always going to be killed in greater numbers. However group them together and target innatentive motorists of all types and we might get somewhere.

[shrub]

I see what you are saying, and I agree, however I can also see what the cagers will say when bikers tell them to sharpen up, "why, you guys are killing yourselves in far greater numbers than we are"

The angle of cager vs biker accidents is always going to fail imo, as bikers are always going to be killed in greater numbers. However group them together and target innatentive motorists of all types and we might get somewhere.

I think car drivers will be happier if we say "we want to see the road toll down and think we should all do our bit".

I think targetting inattention would produce great results

[caseye]

shrub, Kat you guys are closer than you think, only thing missing here is agreement from either of you that the way forward is for bikers to stand up and say" yep we screw up alot" then and only then, the car drivers will acknowledge their own deficencies and allow that together, car, bike, truck , bus etc drivers can do something about making thier own driving habits safer for all others out there.
Shit I hate having my bike in pieces.Still, won't belong now. Look forward to riding south and cathcing up again Katman.