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View Poll Results: The discretionary enforcement tolerance in passing lanes should be

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  • the same as everywhere else

    17 16.50%
  • higher than the normal tolerance (eg 40%)

    60 58.25%
  • open ended - police should not enforce the speed limit n passing lanes

    26 25.24%
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Thread: Police discretion re ticketing in passing lanes

  1. #1
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    Police discretion re ticketing in passing lanes

    The NZ Police speed enforcement guide states:
    "When speed camera enforcement is taking place in the area of passing lanes, vehicles should not be targeted within 250 (two hundred and fifty) metres of the finish of any passing lane."

    Paula Rose has explained it as follows:
    "The policy was introduced to reduce the risk of vehicle crashes and the consequences of those crashes. The merging of vehicles at the ends of passing lanes is potentially hazardous. It requires vehicles to travel at similar speeds and merge 'like a zip'. Prior to this policy being introduced, there were reports of drivers in the process of merging suddenly braking and taking evasive action when they saw a speed camera vehicle ahead. These driver reactions led to higher risks of vehicle crashes than vehicle speeds alone. To minimise that increased crash risk, the policy was introduced to take the speed camera vehicles away from the immediate vision of drivers in the process of merging."

    In another thread one of our resident traffic police officers wrote:
    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat
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    There is no Police policy against ticketing in passing lanes. The only reference to passing lanes is in the Speed Camera Policy, an entirely different policy which doesn't apply to mobile radar enforcement.
    However, mobile radar enforcement from marked cars increases the risks Rose sought to minimise. In a country with just 2 degrees of separation it would not take many tickets to be issued in this way for word to get around. Once people become aware that marked police vehicles are deploying speed detection devices at the end of passing lanes they are likely to take the same risky evasive action rather than complete their overtaking manoeuvres safely every time such a vehicle approaches, regardless of whether it is operating a speed detection device or not. This would actually create more accident risks than operating visible speed cameras at these sites.

    I have used this argument as one part of a many-faceted defense I have successfully deployed on the rare occasions of receiving speeding allegations in passing lanes. However, I do not believe it goes far enough. For a variety of reasons, safety being at the fore, I believe that the speed limit tolerance throughout entire passing lanes should be 40% higher than the actual speed limit, but what do you think?

  2. #2
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    they should be ticketing people who speed up in passing lanes then slow down to their normal 85ks

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimO View Post
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    they should be ticketing people who speed up in passing lanes then slow down to their normal 85ks
    I love your thinking but foresee difficulties would be raised by enforcers wondering how they could tell if the vehicle approaching them at 100 was doing 85 a few minutes earlier.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimO View Post
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    they should be ticketing people who speed up in passing lanes then slow down to their normal 85ks
    You've done the Canterbury Grand Prix too, huh...?
    I'm gonna hit the highway like a battery hen, on a silver black mountain bike.. (Meatloaf)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Miller View Post
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    I love your thinking but foresee difficulties would be raised by enforcers wondering how they could tell if the vehicle approaching them at 100 was doing 85 a few minutes earlier.
    They can't ... so they ticket those doing 110-120 km's in the passing lanes ... rather than watch those passing at 90-100 km's outside those areas ...
    Nothing screams poor workmanship more than wrinkles in the duct tape ....

  6. #6
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    the problem is the people who (I will be honest, I have done this a few times) get to a passing lane, and just fucking GAS it to a ridiculous speed, to get past as many people as possible. If you are seen doing say 140, well, thats really not necessary is it? and probably fair enough you get a ticket.

    I do have an issue with getting pinged for 110 at the end of one though, but hey.

    Heres a novel idea. use the energy you use raising all these things on KB on something else instead, like starting an action group to get concrete answers on what exactly police are instructed to do in these seemingly debatable circumstances. It may yield a better result than whining aimlessly on a messageboard.

    Yes, Im serious.
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    holy shit! That's one good looking tranny!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigertim20 View Post
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    the problem is the people who (I will be honest, I have done this a few times) get to a passing lane, and just fucking GAS it to a ridiculous speed, to get past as many people as possible. If you are seen doing say 140, well, thats really not necessary is it? and probably fair enough you get a ticket.

    I do have an issue with getting pinged for 110 at the end of one though, but hey.

    Heres a novel idea. use the energy you use raising all these things on KB on something else instead, like starting an action group to get concrete answers on what exactly police are instructed to do in these seemingly debatable circumstances. It may yield a better result than whining aimlessly on a messageboard.

    Yes, Im serious.
    I'm not surprised you've gassed it to get past as many people as possible. You're probably responding to an illegal situation that has built up over the last few miles or so: 1st people driving at less than the speed limit not moving left to allow others past when they could; 2nd people who don't intend passing following too closely to allow someone who does to pick them off one at a time; 3rd the entire queue speeding up as soon as you get to the passing lane. All three are illegal and combined they create a very common, frustrating situation, if not dangerous. Gassing it to get past at the safest possible place (a passing lane that is designed especially for it) is perfectly understandable. And, so long as the other vehicles continue to follow too closely to allow you to rejoin the queue it's either all or none isn't it?

    As to doing something about it; I have OIA requests in to the various enforcement authorities for details of tickets issued. I already have the national crash statistics detailing the factors recorded as contributing to accidents. So far the enforcement authorities have not provided the ticket details but I haven't given up. When I get them I will publish a chart correlating accident factors against ticketing for those factors. My initial expectation is that there will be no correlation. Few tickets will be issued for the factors that contribute to most accidents; many tickets will be issued for factors that contribute to few accidents. As an example, "exceeding the speed limit" is recorded as a factor in just 5% of accidents. Various authorities and methodologies are used to ticket against this including the Highway Patrol, Local Authorities, RADAR, LASER & Speed Cameras. According to one of our resident traffic rule enforcers (rastuscat), one group that has an especially low focus on "exceeding the speed limit" is his group. Yet even he admits to issuing considerably more than 5% of tickets for it (about double IIRC.) Once we add the speed cameras etc to the mix I'm pretty sure we will find that enforcement is not even slightly focused on the factors actually recorded as contributing to accidents. However, I'll wait till I've completed the research for a definitive conclusion.

    I believe this is more likely to succeed than trying to get straight answers to what exactly police are instructed to do. Even if straight answers could be obtained there is no guarantee that all Popos do what they are instructed to do. Our resident Popos have confirmed that their group is just like every other group of humans - a mixed bunch. That is why I am basing my work on actual tickets issued - it will tell us what is actually happening, as opposed to what certain authorities say should be happening.

  8. #8
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    Gee you really had my attention until the 40% part. I think you'd have more luck winning lotto.
    10% may have been a reasonable request but 40% is pure fantasy. Also claiming this increase is for the purpose of improved safety really does bring your credibility and motive into question.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoon View Post
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    Gee you really had my attention until the 40% part. I think you'd have more luck winning lotto.
    10% may have been a reasonable request but 40% is pure fantasy. Also claiming this increase is for the purpose of improved safety really does bring your credibility and motive into question.
    But at 110kph there is already a 10% tolerance, that would make options 1 & 2 the same.

    Besides, if one asks for 40% one might get 20%

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Miller View Post
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    I believe that the speed limit tolerance throughout entire passing lanes should be 40% higher than the actual speed limit, but what do you think?
    cool does that include multilane motorways?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellywrestler View Post
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    cool does that include multilane motorways?
    I can remember way back when they used to have a higher limit anyway but that was before the 100kph limit for 'open road'. I think they should bring back a 120k limit for motorways and expressways, with a 110k limit for multi-laned highways.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellywrestler View Post
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    cool does that include multilane motorways?
    Nah you times that 40% by the amount of extra lanes i.e. the 3rd lane is 80% tolerance 4th is 120% tolerance
    Science Is But An Organized System Of Ignorance
    Speed Kills!??... I Must Be A Zombie Then!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellywrestler View Post
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    cool does that include multilane motorways?
    Maybe, but I have to think about it. Overtaking lanes are specifically designed for overtaking. Also, they are often the only place you can pass safely for many kilometers. On a multilane motorway you can pass anywhere along it i.e.; it is like there is always a passing lane so the particular place where you pass isn't dictated or limited and you can take more time over it. Also you tend not to get the problem of slow queues building up on motorways that then speed up (entirely and as a queue) when you go to pass them. If you do get build up on motorways it is probably too busy in general for high overtaking speeds to be prudent. If the increased tolerance included motorways you'd get people roaring along the entire length at 140 then telling the Popo "I was just overtaking someone." The purpose is not to make 140 the defacto speed limit. It is a discretionary, absolute top-end tolerance for the very specific situation of a momentary peak speed when overtaking on our scarce, expensive passing lanes. So, on reflection, for the purposes of this poll I'll keep it to passing lanes.

    And maybe 140 is too high. I only gave it as an example. If it wins out as the preferred option I can run another poll to see what people think the special passing lane tolerance should actually be.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Miller View Post
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    ... I can run another poll to see what people think the special passing lane tolerance should actually be.
    About 220 should do it...
    Now that I'm older, I thought it was great that I seemed to have more patience. Turns out I just don't give a shit...

  15. #15
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    About 120 for passing lanes (and inside lanes on motorways) would be logical I reckon, incendentally a lot of police would let you off doing those speeds anyway. For straight open road ones anyway, it's a bit excessive for the curvy uphil ones (though the kaimais is pretty enjoyable at those sort of speed ).
    "A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal

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