LAMS Harley

[davereid]

Issue 279 of "Live to ride" includes the interesting suggestion that Harley Davidson are considering making a 655 cc version of the 883 Sportster for an Oz LAMS compliant Harley, which if the KB experts are correct would become NZ compliant.

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.

You could only assume that other manufacturers will be playing the same game.

That 600cc super sports (that makes way to much power for LAMS) will be available in a suitably re-chipped LAMS version.

How are the cops going to tell on the side of the road what bikes are LAMS compliant ?
Will it just become a defacto 660 cc limit ?

[tigertim20]

as for how theyll know, they wont. much like they often cant tell a number of common, illegal mods that already exist on both cars and bikes. if you arent doing anything to attract attention, and you are polite if you do get pulled over, theres fuckall chance youll get done.

as it is, plenty of people will mod bikes, get a legal 650 and swap over a litre twin into the chassis etc etc, just the same as lots of people have slammed 400's etc into their 250s

[pc220]

Based on power to weight, wont all Harley Fergasons be LAMS approved?

[scumdog]

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Issue 279 of "Live to ride" includes the interesting suggestion that Harley Davidson are considering making a 655 cc version of the 883 Sportster for an Oz LAMS compliant Harley, which if the KB experts are correct would become NZ compliant.

Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.

You could only assume that other manufacturers will be playing the same game.

That 600cc super sports (that makes way to much power for LAMS) will be available in a suitably re-chipped LAMS version.

How are the cops going to tell on the side of the road what bikes are LAMS compliant ?
Will it just become a defacto 660 cc limit ?

There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

[Katman:Me]

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Of course its childs play to convert an 883 to 1200, and there are plenty of go fast parts for the 1200.

Since about 2008 it hasn't been quite within a child's budget though.

[SMOKEU]

That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win.

[Shadows]

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There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

There's still a couple around that I know of.
500, and like all relatively gutless bikes, once you get used to having to go hot into corners in order to get the most out of them, they're definitely a bit of a "blast" to ride. I found they were built for people far more svelte than myself though.

[Shadows]

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That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win.

Yeah, kind of what I was thinking. A great way for a learner to make life difficult for himself.

[davereid]

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That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win.

Yeah I did laugh when the NZTA said in the LAMS explanatory documents that they wanted to limit the size and weight of motorcycles that learners could ride.

Of course instead of limiting the size and weight, they limited the cc rating. Which of course has no essential relationship to size and weight.

LAMS in A.C.T. does not include a CC limit, and as a result you can buy some lovely larger capacity cruisers, including much of the HD range.

But the NZ law specifies CC limit, and power-to-weight.

Thats OK for new bikes that the manufacturer publishes the data for. The NZTA will know the figures.

But what about my 230 km/hr Manx Norton ?

Not that I would loan it to a learner.

But what I want to know is, if the law specifies a certain cc rating and power to weight, will it be legal for a learner to ride it, or will it have to be on the magic list ?

How do you get your old bike on the magic list ?

How does Scumdog know when he pulls me over that my bike is on the magic list ?

[tigertim20]

I was under the understanding that the bike MUST be on the list, but that there will be a process through which you can make a submission to have an unlisted bike approved for you to ride. As manufacturers alter their bikes every year, each model year will require subsequent reveiw of the approved bikes, Im sure it will happen that for example, the 2013 gt650r will be legal, but the 2014 model will up the power enough to be banned.
none of that matters though because the world will end in 2012 right?

[\m/]

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That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 250, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win.

Fixed for you

[HenryDorsetCase]

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There was the wee Buell Blast built a couple of years ago, 500cc from memory.

What happened to them??

in the death throes of Buell, they decided to scrap them. There was an ad campaign about two months before H-D killed Buell showing Buell Blasts which had been put thru a crusher and turned into cubes and they were using them as coffee tables.

It all became moot soon after when H-D shut it down.

Try and get the CW with the candid interview Steve Anderson did with Erik Buell. Buell is diplomatic, but pulls no punches.

H-D basically had no idea what they had, mandated a bunch of stupid shit, then fucked him over. Not cool. Sure, they had their own problems, but still not cool. Wish I'd bought some stock though when it as $7 a share. Its $38 today.

[scumdog]

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That sounds great. A 655cc bike, with about the same amount of power as a 400, yet with the weight of a 1200cc bike. Win.

But I bet they sell though...all those guys who bought a Honda because there wasn't a Harley suitable for their licence catagory will now be able to side-step gayness and go 'straight' to a Harley!

[lakedaemonian]

A number of Aussie Harley dealers were having a look at the option of sleeve down displacement in 883 Sportsters to comply with the new LAMS laws internally within each dealership or somehow as a small group.

From having worked in manufacturing, I think that while it was a worthwhile exercise to consider...the cost to sleeve them down in kit and labour cost, then the cost to remove the kit and the difficulty in being able to charge MORE for a sleeved down and less powerful 883 than a stock 883 would have been a huge loss leader.

But it shows the desire for dealers in the HD network to be able to eventually offer a one stop shop motorcycling cradle to grave option for riders.

If I could have my way, I'd like to see HD produce a bike that's in the 500-700cc range that achieves the following:

*is perceived as a "real Harley"(NOT a Buell Blast built specifically as a learners bike first and last)
*is learner legal...trying to find one displacement size that suits the most international markets to allow for economy of scale
*is electronically programmable...much like manufacturers build in performance improvements to be unlocked in MY2013, MY2014, MY2015 but actually exist in a locked format in MY2011 and MY2012.

I know Sportsters have had a rep of being a "girls bike" which I think mostly comes from folks who have little to no experience riding Sportsters....hell I can ride any bike I want, but my last bunch have been Sportys.....and I'd probably be keen for a smaller Harley for a commuter if I liked it.

The funny thing is that when you go back to the renaissance of motorcycling in the 60's/70's the smallest 883 Sportster would still be bigger than almost all of the biggest bikes made during that era...which I think is insane.

In a world where giant SUVs are starting to shrink with rising fuel costs...we may see some of the same in motorcycling....quite possibly a return(for some) to motorcycle commuting...rather than motorcycling being mostly a leisure activity....the race for bigger motors and tires has to end somewhere...hopefully before it gets HUmmer SUV ridiculous

Speaking of Hummer.....I don't for a second wish the return of the Harley Topper or Harley Hummer...if HD made another Topper I'd probably top myself

But I think with a global focus for HD(we are nearly at the point of majority of sales being outside North America).....rising energy costs....and generally smaller in stature and less wealthy folks around the world we could see an HD model(or even model family) fall in a half step or a full step under the Sportster.

I have no insider knowledge.....dealers find out when customers do.....but I think it's easy enough to connect the dots to see what the future likely entails.

The only question I have is how well will Harley-Davidson riders handle a a Harley built outside of the US(much like Triumph building in Thailand)?

Here's some very recent info from Matt Levatich HD's COO:

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...n-harley-brand

Just my 0.02c

[davereid]

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Im sure it will happen that for example, the 2013 gt650r will be legal, but the 2014 model will up the power enough to be banned.

Yes this complicates matters. Of course I may be able to buy a 2012 model, sold new in 2014. How will the LAMS system cope with that ?

Or the Hyosung Dealer may say, these bikes are actually assembled in my workshop, ergo I can tweak the ECU back a little and certify it as LAMS compliant and have a bike that learners can legally buy.

As long as the NZTA says its LAMS, then I guess its LAMS even if its not.

With regard to the 883 becoming a 655, its actually a pretty small piston diameter change, due to the motor being such a long stroke.

If HD were convinced that it would sell enough I'm sure it would be done at the factory.