Why it's important not to have other road users lift their game

[Ocean1]

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"You can't blame the roads. It's just the courtesy and the patience."

I disagree. I reckon you can blame the roads. The courtesy and patience I see in Blighty is pretty much on par with here.

That’s not to say I think the roads here need fixing, but of all the driving variables between here and other, similar cultures with similar vehicles the roads themselves represent the biggest difference. Like you, I’d be interested in seeing the full data set, distance travelled, traffic density, fleet age, etc. But I’m picking the distances travelled at reasonable speed on dual carriageway B roads is reasonably high here.

The dissapointing thing is that we're unlikely to ever see data collected for anything other than justification of transport policy decisions. The difference in collection methods alone would corrupt the model beyond anything useful.


Edit: this explains some of that fatalities / pop list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...les_per_capita

[shrub]

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So sorry.... would it have been more excusable if it was just a Give Way sign he bowled through without looking??

Pfft... I've had my say, you're right (as always) and I'm just another of the five percent fuckwits that keeps you such an outstanding member of the 95% club. Funny thing is, no matter how good the rest of you get...... 50% of us will always be below average.

The thing is mate, it's not about being right or being wrong, or even being a good or bad driver. It's recognising that there are and always will be drivers that do dumb and dangerous shit, and no matter how many laws are passed, billboards go up or TV ads get run, they will be there. That means bad drivers are a constant factor that we can't change.

Because you and thousands of others see no reason to stop at every stop sign, when I see a car coming up to a stop sign there is a very real chance someone like you is behind the wheel and I ride accordingly. I use strategies to increase the chances you'll see me, and because there is a good chance you won't see me I have my fingers over the brake, watch your speed and rate of deceleration and find an escape route in case you don't stop.

The same applies when the woman who thinks that 2 metres is a safe following distance is behind me in traffic. She's real and there are thousands like her, so if I don't want to be her bonnet emblem I keep an eye on my mirrors, and always check before I brake. Or when the guy on the sportsbike, who likes to have his wheels on the white line in rh corners because that's the fastest line, is coming the other way on a windy road. If I want to make it to the pub to lie about my riding skill I need to know that there are a lot of people like him out there, and always make sure my line is well away from the cenreline, even if it's not the fast line.

There are many, many thousands of people out there who have dangerous driving habits. While some people do it because they don't know any better, and education and training can stop them; there are a lot that do it because they don't see why they shouldn't, and they will never change. I gave you a real life example of where 2 lives were fucked up because a guy did almost exactly what you claim to do, yet you didn't see any reason to change your behaviour. I guess you think crashes only happen to other people.

People who drive (and ride) dangerously will never go away, so we either let them kill and maim us, or we make sure that the way we ride compensates for their incompetency. Whining about how Someone Should Do Something About It, and that them Cuntstables don't prosecute people who don't stop at red lights is attractive because that makes it someone else's problem and then all we have to do is sit on our arses and complain, but it also increases the odds of getting a bed bath from a gay male nurse. Changing our attitudes and changing the way we ride is harder because we actually have to do something, but it means we have more control of the outcome, and then the only thing getting tenderly washed is our bike.

[shrub]

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I disagree. I reckon you can blame the roads. The courtesy and patience I see in Blighty is pretty much on par with here.

That’s not to say I think the roads here need fixing, but of all the driving variables between here and other, similar cultures with similar vehicles the roads themselves represent the biggest difference. Like you, I’d be interested in seeing the full data set, distance travelled, traffic density, fleet age, etc. But I’m picking the distances travelled at reasonable speed on dual carriageway B roads is reasonably high here.

The dissapointing thing is that we're unlikely to ever see data collected for anything other than justification of transport policy decisions. The difference in collection methods alone would corrupt the model beyond anything useful.

Ugly roads are real - you want to ride down here, we envy Nigeria for the quality of their roads, but they're also constant. A road is either good or bad, and in my experience they only change overnight if there's a major quake, so you ride accordingly. If you don't know the road you make sure you ride at an appropriate speed so you don't find yourself at 10/10ths heading straight for a pothole. And even if it's a road you know well, if it's been a while since you rode it you take it easy in case there's been damage or roadworks since you were last there.

[chasio]

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And it'll get you a "failed to stop" ticket prety much every time you're seen.

I've been pinged 3 times for it.

What a bugger. I do it at a couple of junctions in the city more-or-less every day and never been pinged. Must admit there are no doughnuts shops in the area, though. Is there actually a law for foot down? I kind of doubt it is that explicit. But point taken.

My wife got a failed to stop ticket at a shit-house designed junction close to where we live. She had been driving the road very regularly for 5 years and she had never noticed it was actually a Stop sign, probably as it's on a 2 foot pole for some reason. She is honestly one of the best and safest drivers I have ever been driven by, but she had been making this mistake, unconsciously, for years.

When she told me I (a) nearly fell off my chair and (b) told her how close to being taken out I have been at that junction for precisely that reason (multiple cases of me giving way when with priority or other evasive action). She now stops there.

I can understand mistakes (at whatever percentage), but what I can't understand is a person who pathologically decides that they know best at every junction, regardless of signage. Our brain makes shit up all the time and we assume we see things that are in fact invented. How can I know what ALL the hazards are at a particular junction? If it's a stop I don't agree with, it's probably a black-spot. So I don't blame the pencil pushers: I blame the idiots that have caused accidents there.

[chasio]

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I disagree. I reckon you can blame the roads. The courtesy and patience I see in Blighty is pretty much on par with here.

Partially I agree with you. But I do believe that the over-riding attitude to road-use in the UK and most of Europe is collaborative and here it is competitive. And for me, that's a key factor.

What would happen if we all left for Aussie (give it a few years...) and you put 4 million Brits** in NZ? Due to the collaboration factor, I believe that there would be fewer accidents here if that happened. More proportionally than in the UK (attributable to road design & maintenance plus other factors), but fewer than we have now.

My $0.02 anyways

Chasio

** Chosen over e.g. Germans or Dutch etc. as Brits are used to driving on the left

[caspernz]

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But I do believe that the over-riding attitude to road-use in the UK and most of Europe is collaborative and here it is competitive. And for me, that's a key factor.

This is oh so true! Until a Kiwi has spent a bit of time in Europe driving or riding, this will remain just something that us imports comment on. It's hilarious in a sense, over here you put your indicator on and often some small minded prick will try and close the gap you're aiming for. In Europe, by and large, the driver in the same situation just eases off a little. Hey, we're still all moving in the right direction... Oh well, I've driven trucks for 25 years on three continents, so the whole hurry hurry approach has long since gone by the wayside for me. Maybe it's the pioneering spirit that makes lots of Kiwi drivers so damn combative?

[Ocean1]

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Ugly roads are real - you want to ride down here, we envy Nigeria for the quality of their roads, but they're also constant. A road is either good or bad, and in my experience they only change overnight if there's a major quake, so you ride accordingly. If you don't know the road you make sure you ride at an appropriate speed so you don't find yourself at 10/10ths heading straight for a pothole. And even if it's a road you know well, if it's been a while since you rode it you take it easy in case there's been damage or roadworks since you were last there.

Quite. I did suggest that I don't see any easy fix. The fact remains; our roads are constructed on budgets drawn from very few taxpayers per kilometre, around some seriously wrinkled geography, and that imposes restraints on design features that affect safety.

I could suggest that we lose some signage that seems strategically placed to threaten anyone making use of natural escape avenues. Wouldn't cost much.

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What would happen if we all left for Aussie (give it a few years...) and you put 4 million Brits** in NZ? Due to the collaboration factor, I believe that there would be fewer accidents here if that happened.

Firstly, we'd all eventually learn to drive like Aussies. Corners would frighten us.

Secondly, the 4 million Brits would quite possibly learn to drive like Kiwis. We're essentially culturally similar, and like I said, the biggest difference is roading design.

[GingerMidget]

Wellington drivers. Freakin sweet baby jesus. Given how much it rains here, you'd think they would know how to drive in it?!

Apparently not.

I know my stopping distances in the wet and dry and various speeds, due to my dad making sure I could do all of that before sitting my restricted. This is in both my car and ute, but how many other people get that kind of training? I'm betting its two fifths of fuck all.

Do I speed? yes. , but I feel confident in my abilities. Especially on an empty road with high visbility Or around tight twisty ones with zero corner visibilty

[Clockwork]

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.....
My wife got a failed to stop ticket at a shit-house designed junction close to where we live. She had been driving the road very regularly for 5 years and she had never noticed it was actually a Stop sign, probably as it's on a 2 foot pole for some reason. She is honestly one of the best and safest drivers I have ever been driven by, but she had been making this mistake, unconsciously [and apparently safely], for years.

....

This just illustrates my point about too many intersections having Stop requirements where it is just not needed.

[chasio]

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This just illustrates my point about too many intersections having Stop requirements where it is just not needed.

She had been negotiating the junction successfully, it is true. I'm sure much of the time she actually did stop simply because she needed to: it's pretty busy up there. And yet I have had to take evasive action on numerous occasions at that very same junction because of folks who failed to stop when they should have done. So I'm not convinced simply because she never hit anything, that the 'Stop' is unnecessary. Even if I had not had that experience, the angles of vision (you have to look back over your shoulder to ensure the road is truly clear) and complexity of the junction make a Stop at that point seem entirely reasonable to me.

Heck, in the early days of living around here I had to sprint out of the way (when crossing on foot) as someone blew through the stop sign at around 40kmh. I was crossing at a pedestrian island and there was no way in hell the driver could have known I would be there given their approach speed, and vice versa: they were approaching from behind my back and the road design means the pedestrian island (where I was crossing in broad daylight) is invisible until you're nearly on top of it. My point with this is that not all hazards are other vehicles, and that is all the driver had allowed for. But that stop sign caters for unsighted pedestrians, as well.

[FJRider]

It never ceases to amaze me, how often the "not stopping for STOP signs" is seen to be not that big an issue.

UNTILL ...they are the victim ...

[Clockwork]

Hey I agree, it should be a big deal. But the way they throw them around these with days is part of the problem, their currency is becoming devalued.

Drivers who fail to look at Stop intersections also fail to look at Give Way intersections. The results are the same. Its not the intersection that's the problem!

[davebullet]

You spend approx half an hour with a license tester then your good for the next 50 off years until retesting commences at 75.

In that time I will forget the road code, road rules, pick up bad habits, never have to face the gruesomeness of a nasty crash etc...

Instead of the above, the authorities reduce speed limits, put up wire rope barriers, more traffic lights, stupid red light turning arrows etc...

We need to up everyones game by ongoing driver training and re-assessment. Why not relicense everyone every 5 years with a defensive driving course and other similar proof of learning / skills?

NZers think driving is a right when it should be a privilege.

[rastuscat]

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Changing our attitudes and changing the way we ride is harder because we actually have to do something, but it means we have more control of the outcome, and then the only thing getting tenderly washed is our bike.

You've earned a Rastuscat hug. Come over here you widdle darling...........

I would +1 this, but it epitomises the several hundred posts I've been writing for several months now. +1 doesn't cut it.

Own the problem, and you own the solution. Hand the problem to someone else (blame the road, blame others) and you give the solution aay as well.

Yes, often it's external factors which cause the crash, but riding defensively can often mitigate those factors.

Don't know how to multi quote, but Ocean1 is also on the money.

The dissapointing thing is that we're unlikely to ever see data collected for anything other than justification of transport policy decisions. The difference in collection methods alone would corrupt the model beyond anything useful.

Our data collection is poor, as it's done for several reasons by people who have various motivations and degrees of enthusiasm. That's the real world. I disagree that it's the collectors who are totally to blame, however. Blame those who look at the figures and assume they are correct and who write policy based on them.

Donuts.

[Tink]

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So then it's your fault if some drunk idiot drives through a red light at 100kmh and wipes you out as you're riding through a green light at 50kmh. Contrary to what Katman will tell you, not all SMIDSY's are the fault of the rider.

Yup I should have looked and listened better! Car or bike our awareness of other traffic / peds. / animals / hazards needs to improve.