LAMS approved bikes

**Shesti** · 17th July 2012, 12:12

They tried to introduce a system that's working in Europe...but the difference is that somebody that don't know shit about bikes has made this list.
A lot of bikes on the list are too powerful for a beginner.
Some examples:

Husaberg:
ALL on the list
Extremes:
TE300 2 stroke (probably healthy 60hp at the wheel with 100kg of weight)
FS650C & E - more than 65hp or so at the wheel with 112kg of weight

KTM:
probably ALL on the list
Extremes:
EXC300 - same as Husaberg TE300
EXC525 - very similar power/weight ratio as one above

Yamaha:
A lot on the list,
Extremes:
WR450F - healthy 60hp with 120-ish kilos

The list goes on and on...

And 204hp/1000kg is too much for learners legal bike.

In Europe for example it is allowed to ride Suzuki SV650, but variant with 34hp, which brings you to 34hp / 165kg bike + 75 average rider = 240kg
This brings us to 141hp/tone, actually, I think the rules there are 100kw/136hp per 1000kg.

150-ish kw per tone is too much for a learner, and this law (in this driving conditions) will definitely increase death and crash rate among young motorcyclists.

Just mu 2 cents...

**p.dath** · 17th July 2012, 16:48

Originally Posted by Shesti

And 204hp/1000kg is too much for learners legal bike.

I think that is a reasonable power limit. What do you think the power limit should be then?

Also not that the "weight" part of the equation includes the weight of an "average" rider. From memory I think this is 80kg.

**Leed** · 19th July 2012, 10:15

where do we buy these mythical "PROHIBITED" 250's anyway - they havent manufactured them for over 15 years (you cant include the RS)
the only ones you can find in NZ are likely dogs that are non road legal (ex-raced) versions from around 1992 anyway

the Transport Agency can't even do math on the specs

for example.... lets import an RGV from Japan today (same as 1988-1993 or any time period) - because I cant find one in NZ (eg. Kawasaki KR-1)
manufacturer's quoted power output 45PS (approx 34kW), dry weight 139kg (excluding any fuel approx 14kg)
weight + rider = 139+90 = 229kg (per tonne factor = 1000/229) = 4.37
specific power output (manufacturer) = 34kW * 4.37

THEREFORE power output per tonne = 148.5 kW/tonne !!! < 150 kW/tonne !!!

this is less than their blanket banning rule of the prohibited models - some pencil pusher flicked though an old PB issue and became their 'expert consultant'

ohh but an RVF400 is okay, but where is the ZXR400 in the list (ZZR400) where is all the other 400's which are sensible
agree with SHESTI that there's several on the list that are probably over their rule but are learner approved

WHY BAN SOMETHING YOU CAN'T PURCHASE - ANYONE KNOW OF A KR-1 FOR SALE !! how long ago was even a single one seen on Tardme

**Asher** · 19th July 2012, 10:28

Originally Posted by Leed

where do we buy these mythical "PROHIBITED" 250's anyway - they havent manufactured them for over 15 years (you cant include the RS)
the only ones you can find in NZ are likely dogs that are non road legal (ex-raced) versions from around 1992 anyway

the Transport Agency can't even do math on the specs

eg. lets import an RGV from Japan today
power output 45PS (approx 34kW), dry weight 139kg (excluding any fuel approx 14kg)
weight + rider = 139+90 = 229kg (per tonne factor = 1000/229) = 4.37
specific power output (manufacturer) = 34kW * 4.37

THEREFORE power output per tonne = 148.5 kW/tonne !!! < 150 kW/tonne !!!

this is less than their blanket banning rule of the prohibited models - some pencil pusher flicked though an old PB issue and became their 'expert consultant'

ohh but an RVF400 is okay, but where is the ZXR400 in the list (ZZR400) where is all the other 400's which are sensible
agree with SHESTI that there's several on the list that are probably over their rule but are learner approved

WHY BAN SOMETHING YOU CAN'T PURCHASE - ANYONE KNOW OF A KR-1 FOR SALE !! - havent seen a new one since 1989

Yes they said because of increases in technology they needed to change the laws yet only ban 20 year old bikes

The jap rgv's had 45hp but the unrestricted models for other markets had around 62hp or 46kw so would make it 201kw/t

**Leed** · 19th July 2012, 10:39

Beaurocracy gone wrong...

the current state of high power motorcyles (increase in power outputs) has happened in the 600-1000cc area (since ~1997) NOT LEARNER BIKES... eg...
..... 1980 approx 380kW/tonne
..... 2012 approx 740+ kw/tonne
^^^ these are FULL license bikes NOT learner 250's (where there has been zero advance in over 20 years)
it's the big bikes that are out of whack - how is it sensible to graduate from a Ninja250 to a ZX-10?

if you are going to make a license jump to a 740+ kW/tonne motorcyle (when you achieve a Full license),
THEN you may as well learn on something that is in excess of > 200kW/tonne !

the 250cc technological improvements progressed no further than what was availbale in 1989 - the NZTA claims make it sound like these 250's are somehow modern and magical (they imply dangerous)

but all of the 250's that will ever come into NZ from JAPAN are 45PS (~34kW... 148kW/tonne (rider)) so are below the set maximum limits
the fact is they have made a rule that is 20 years out of date - like men carrying flags in front of automobiles
many of us have had the oppurtunity to learn on these PROHIBITED MODELS - and are still around to prove it

THIS and the fact so few are for sale, means the caviat of this rule is a mostly pointless...
a list of approved bikes of large capacity is however good idea (step foward) for learner riders (and the sales industry !)

RGV are proven slower than KR-1S

so RGV shouldnt be banned

**Asher** · 19th July 2012, 12:21

While i dont disagree with them allowing learners have a greater choice of bikes (except for not allowing 2 strokes

), their reasoning doesnt make much sense at all.

**MarkW** · 19th July 2012, 13:59

In the mid 1990's there was an organisation of Motorcycle Riding Schools in New Zealand and we went to the Ministry of Transport (as it was in those days) and suggested a number of practical improvements to the Licensing system for motorcyclists. One of the suggestions was that a kilowatt per kilogram limit made more sense than a straight cc limit. And the 150kw per 1000kg was what we suggested - in 1996.

Finally, 16 years after the suggestion was made it is actually going to happen - and as it has sat in Wellington for 16 years is it any wonder that the list includes motorcycles that haven't been available for a couple of decades.

The LAMS list isn't perfect by a long shot - but it does give more flexibility than what we currently have in place. So, accept it and improve it. Be CONstructive rather than DEstructive.

**george formby** · 19th July 2012, 14:14

Originally Posted by MarkW

In the mid 1990's there was an organisation of Motorcycle Riding Schools in New Zealand and we went to the Ministry of Transport (as it was in those days) and suggested a number of practical improvements to the Licensing system for motorcyclists. One of the suggestions was that a kilowatt per kilogram limit made more sense than a straight cc limit. And the 150kw per 1000kg was what we suggested - in 1996.

Finally, 16 years after the suggestion was made it is actually going to happen - and as it has sat in Wellington for 16 years is it any wonder that the list includes motorcycles that haven't been available for a couple of decades.

The LAMS list isn't perfect by a long shot - but it does give more flexibility than what we currently have in place. So, accept it and improve it. Be CONstructive rather than DEstructive.

They must have been having a clean out, and that explains why I can get Jas an IT 490. Not many on trade me, sadly.

**Leed** · 19th July 2012, 14:26

Originally Posted by MarkW

In the mid 1990's there was an organisation of Motorcycle Riding Schools in New Zealand and WE went to the Ministry of Transport ....

...usual story of 'consultant' not being the same thing as 'expert'.

FUNNY THING IS.... THE 'INSTRUCTOR' AT THE TIME (I sat) COULD NOT COMPLETE THE HANDLING SKILLS TEST on the 'PROHIBITED BIKE' ...
this happened to be because of a limited steering lock - so suitability has nothing to do with power output being inappropriate and riding experience didnt matter here either
Ergonomics is a big factor in suitability for learners (a bit harder to quantify a formula for though, eh?)

HOW DOES a RIDER get PILLION CARRYING EXPERIENCE ANYWAY?
this is, I feel, is a critical part of a obtaining a full license and has everything to do with SAFETY - where specific power outputs of extinct models has NOTHING to do with road safety AND NEVER DID

If you do own a PROHIBITED learner bike NOW (before 1 October 2012), you can pay some money to get an exemption (DL4 Application For An Exemption) - so long as you can say how long you might be on it (time limited), and specify what part of the law is unfair to your situation - GO FIGURE

the approved learner list contains...
400 BROS,
NT650V Revere,
NTV650V Deauville
....BLAH BLAH they will make this list up as they need, when they need (so much detail on this one engine variant for such few bikes in the overall list)...
there's no NT650 (BROS) on the APPROVED LIST.... you get my drift - THEY ARE IDIOTS pure and simple (miss the base model but specify variants)

ultimately TAX PAYERS paid money that the government has wasted to have that partial list made - and thats your 16 and more years of polishing a turd
They will bend and re-invent legislation but this wont stop old people dying on modern bikes
There was a time (~1985) when you got your full license in the mail after 30 days
My guess(es) is, there are the same if not more motorcycle deaths NOW (per annum), than back then - PROGRESS! but I'm sure nothing to do with the LEARNERS situation

**ants67** · 31st July 2012, 21:00

i cant get my head around how ltsa is doing its calculations as an rvf400 honda weighs 165 kgs dry and is around 59hp which when all said and done with fuel and oil etc and rider 90kgs works out to be around 170kw per ton my fz400r is very much the same in spec no matter how many times i do the calculations i cant get it down to 150kw per ton am i missing something or am i doing the calculation wrong . if any one can clear this up would be a great help cheers

**p.dath** · 1st August 2012, 08:04

Originally Posted by ants67

i cant get my head around how ltsa is doing its calculations as an rvf400 honda weighs 165 kgs dry and is around 59hp which when all said and done with fuel and oil etc and rider 90kgs works out to be around 170kw per ton my fz400r is very much the same in spec no matter how many times i do the calculations i cant get it down to 150kw per ton am i missing something or am i doing the calculation wrong . if any one can clear this up would be a great help cheers

According to Wikipedia, the "peak" power output of the rvf400 is 53hp (about about 39.5kw). So if it was 255kg all up with rider, that would make it 154 kw/tonne. If they used a figure with slightly less power, or slightly more weight, then it would pass.

Or they could have used a little bit of discretion, and said it is so close to the limit, and the chance of it being ridden continously at "peak power" was so remote, that practically it would be contiously below 150 kw/tonne the entire time it was on the road.

**ants67** · 1st August 2012, 18:16

Originally Posted by p.dath

According to Wikipedia, the "peak" power output of the rvf400 is 53hp (about about 39.5kw). So if it was 255kg all up with rider, that would make it 154 kw/tonne. If they used a figure with slightly less power, or slightly more weight, then it would pass.

Or they could have used a little bit of discretion, and said it is so close to the limit, and the chance of it being ridden continously at "peak power" was so remote, that practically it would be contiously below 150 kw/tonne the entire time it was on the road.

so before i make an application to appear on lams list i should go looking for the heavyist least powerful model varient of my fz that was avaliable for sale somewhere in the world and supply ltsa with those specs?

**p.dath** · 2nd August 2012, 11:03

Originally Posted by ants67

so before i make an application to appear on lams list i should go looking for the heavyist least powerful model varient of my fz that was avaliable for sale somewhere in the world and supply ltsa with those specs?

Unless your a manufacturer you can't really make an application, as they only accept the "numbers" from manufacurers.