Sprawl vs compact development?

[Hellzie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jpN8kI0-pY


We saw this film at the weekend. Very good and worth tracking down a copy: examples and exemplars talking about European cities (why they "work") and (mainly) American cities (why they suck). the key seems to be that if you design your cities for cars, then your city sucks. If you design them for people (a concept called "prospect/refuge" where the spaces are people sized: example is a city square should be no more than 100sq m because thats the human scale) then they win. Key issues there are infrastructure, planning and thinking about how people will use the spaces. Oh, Portland OR is another example of urban planning gone well. One of the most interesting was Bogota Colombia: massive extremes of wealth and poverty. Also Brasilia in Brazil which was a planned city (like Canberra) which looks beautiful from the air but is a nightmare if you live there (like those Mrkn cities where you can't walk anywhere).

Detroit too: used to be 135miles square and had 2M people. Now has <700000 people. think about what that does to service provision, infrastructure, who left, who is stillthere etc.

Sorry, told you it would be incoherent.

What an awesome film! Watched it last night. I liked what Jan Gehl said about the staying power of the city. Measuring the success of a place can be likened to a party. A good party is one that you want to stay a long time, and the same goes for a place. You know it's good when people stop and just enjoy it, rather than just passing through or going about their business. Interesting way of looking at it.

[oneofsix]

We drive to the gym and go up the escalator to get there.

You have to save your energy for the gym, after all it is time on the machines that count not the calories burnt getting there. It is often said the best way to use the gym is to walk/run there and then turn around and walk/run home again. Living down here the gym is a lot warmer especially when I take the heated car to get there.

All the issues people bring up about higher density can be resolved. Privacy, space, light, storage. All can be resolved and catered for.

Can all be resolved but will they? Given the cheap arse, cut corner ways development has been done in NZ are you surprised people are reluctant to trust it to happen until they have seen it else where. Perhaps something else it requires is a return having local shops that were killed off by big box stores and malls, even local gyms.

[Paul in NZ]

Have a look see here

http://www.ferndaletrust.co.nz/index.php

(I note uptake has not been strong here during the recession but I've not been there for a few months so that may not now be true)

I prefer this idea

http://www.ngarara.com/site/index.php?page=home

[Swoop]

The one thing that really worries me is what the heck will I do with my toys and hobbies? Kayaks, fishing stuff, sports stuff, camping stuff, ancient motorcycles and tools n equipment dictate a bigger than double garage minimum.

Something took my interest a few years ago over in the Albany area of Akl. Industrial style units with a full apartment on a closed-in mezzanine level.
Massive amounts of space (easily fit a good sized boat + 2 cars + associated junk) plus a normal household without the "quater-acre-nightmare" (mowing the bleedin' lawns!) to worry about.

I was quite tempted with this concept. Obviously targetted towards the small business owner or import/export market.

[Hellzie]

Have a look see here

http://www.ferndaletrust.co.nz/index.php

(I note uptake has not been strong here during the recession but I've not been there for a few months so that may not now be true)

I prefer this idea

http://www.ngarara.com/site/index.php?page=home

Ferndale - first impression - I would liken it to a tranny. A man putting on heels and then calling himself a woman. That's not sustainable. You have to get the basic sustainability principles right first.

Ngarana looks like it's going about in a more honest way.

[Paul in NZ]

Ferndale - first impression - I would liken it to a tranny. A man putting on heels and then calling himself a woman. That's not sustainable. You have to get the basic sustainability principles right first..

Ouch! Maybe a little unfair as its an older development and they have gone to some lengths to do things differently. Having said that - every time I go there and try to convince myself to sell what I have and build a new house there I go....errrr.....nah...... Its just missing that certain something...

[oneofsix]

Ferndale - first impression - I would liken it to a tranny. A man putting on heels and then calling himself a woman. That's not sustainable. You have to get the basic sustainability principles right first.

Ngarana looks like it's going about in a more honest way.

Sorry but both sub-divisions seem to still be sprawl rather than compact. They are both converting new ground to housing. What if Ngarana could take their concept and go vertical with facilities included in the vertical.

[Hellzie]

Ouch! Maybe a little unfair as its an older development and they have gone to some lengths to do things differently. Having said that - every time I go there and try to convince myself to sell what I have and build a new house there I go....errrr.....nah...... Its just missing that certain something...

yes it looks like they've incorporated a lot of sustainability principles, but the fundamentals are wrong. Not sure if I expressed it clearly before but it's easier to look like a woman if you've got the right bits under the clothes to start with.

So a couple of examples of why it won't work -

We are excited about Ferndale's development - the subdivisional enclave has a sense of it's own identity, an area of calm and peace, being a place for families, couples, and individuals alike.

It's not a place for families, couples and individuals as they're only providing one house type - which ultimately only suits family types with a certain income and lifestyle.

Being just 2km from Waikanae town centre and 4km from Waikanae Beach, Ferndale is ideally located to take advantage of all that the Kapiti area has to offer - like an extensive range of award winning shops, restaurants, bistros, cafes and galleries. Close by are parks, river walks and the Nga Manu Nature Reserve. Ferndale is also central to a variety of community services, schools, clubs and organisations.

By car...... 2km and 4km is too far to walk. And the density doesn't support public transport. So those that can't drive (young and old) don't have access to those services.. and they're usually the ones that need them most.

So they're having to work really hard to make it work because the basic issues weren't resolved. Ngarara on the other hand, looks a lot more promising!

[Hellzie]

Sorry but both sub-divisions seem to still be sprawl rather than compact. They are both converting new ground to housing. What if Ngarana could take their concept and go vertical with facilities included in the vertical.

I would argue that not all greenfield development is sprawl. It's new ground, but it's not suburban sprawl. They're proposing a variety of housing types, and also other uses (village centres with commercial / retail and other community facilities, etc). To me, sprawl is monotonous, cookie cutter residential and car dependent.

Compact development is environmentally preferable, but there should be a balance, and there is still room for greenfield development. It just needs to be done right.

[Paul in NZ]

By car...... 2km and 4km is too far to walk. And the density doesn't support public transport. So those that can't drive (young and old) don't have access to those services.. and they're usually the ones that need them most.

So they're having to work really hard to make it work because the basic issues weren't resolved. Ngarara on the other hand, looks a lot more promising!

In reality its a LOT more than that too (just talked to Vicki and she reminded me)

One thing I didn't like was it was so far away from shops that you may as well have had a proper lifestyle block at Te Horo ;-( and yes - its expensive, probably too expensive for what you are getting IMHO.

The Ngarara one was what I liked too, much more village like. There was also a really really good proposal from the Pritchard Group (yes I was surprised too) around the local transmission gulley / kapiti bypass road. The big block of land freed up could have been developed similar to the Ngarara idea complete with cycle paths and extending the historic tram lines from QE Park to Coastland and the railway station. Brilliant, you could catch a train to Kapiti and tram right to the beach. There was also the mixed housing model.

[Winston001]

Balance, but most of all choice. Not everyone needs space. We're not given the choice right now. It's either lots of space (at an unaffordable price for most) or nothing. So you get people living in houses that don't suit their lifestyles....

No choice? The one place in NZ where you can find apartment buildings is...Auckland. And plenty of them. Similarly there are plenty of townhouses and ownership flats, exactly the type of compact infill housing required by retired people and working couples. Isn't this exactly what the ACC is aiming to encourage?

Suburbia sux....

LOL fair enough but for hundreds of thousands of families, the suburbs are where they want to be. Children need space. Safe space. And parents enjoy sharing that with them. The growth of gardening centres is direct evidence of our interest in mucking about on our own patch of dirt. Moreover, caring for our lawns and gardens is a way of keeping grounded, simple work away from the pressures of modern life.

All the issues people bring up about higher density can be resolved. Privacy, space, light, storage. All can be resolved and catered for.

Don't misunderstand, I actually agree with your ideas. There is no need however to reinvent a special New Zealand wheel. What do other cities do successfully? In Europe, Japan, Scandinavia? There must be some good ideas out there.

[avgas]

Something took my interest a few years ago over in the Albany area of Akl. Industrial style units with a full apartment on a closed-in mezzanine level.
Massive amounts of space (easily fit a good sized boat + 2 cars + associated junk) plus a normal household without the "quater-acre-nightmare" (mowing the bleedin' lawns!) to worry about.

I was quite tempted with this concept. Obviously targetted towards the small business owner or import/export market.

I love this concept and will do it when I get permission. Seen lots of cool stores converted into housing down in Kati also.

Which is why I raise the argument, if you only need 200m - why can't we get that subdivided. Get a whole loft/shed thing going on with your own little slice of heaven.
Some of us can't afford the $400,000 for 400m but can afford $200K for sub-200m to build our shed/houses on.
And cross-leasing is like marrying your neighbors. Give me freehold fee simple any day.

[Hellzie]

No choice? The one place in NZ where you can find apartment buildings is...Auckland. And plenty of them. Similarly there are plenty of townhouses and ownership flats, exactly the type of compact infill housing required by retired people and working couples. Isn't this exactly what the ACC is aiming to encourage?

There is choice in a wider Auckland context, but what I'm talking about it choice at a smaller scale - there should be a mix of options in all neighbourhoods (obviously to different extents, ie.. you don't need a big 4 storey apartment in a small rural village).

LOL fair enough but for hundreds of thousands of families, the suburbs are where they want to be. Children need space. Safe space. And parents enjoy sharing that with them. The growth of gardening centres is direct evidence of our interest in mucking about on our own patch of dirt. Moreover, caring for our lawns and gardens is a way of keeping grounded, simple work away from the pressures of modern life.

There is a place for the suburban house type (i.e. a standalone house with a (relatively speaking) large garden. But it doesn't suit everyone. I have lived in the city (in a terrace house), 10min walk from work (in the CBD). And I have also lived in a suburban standalone house (15min bike ride / 20 min bus if you catch it just at the right time of day / 1 hour grid lock drive). And I can say quite happily that the terrace house living allowed me to get away from the pressures of modern life much more successfully, and quickly, whenever I liked. And it had a garden. Big enough to call my own, small enough to not require a whole weekend of attention.

[Hellzie]

I love this concept and will do it when I get permission. Seen lots of cool stores converted into housing down in Kati also.

Which is why I raise the argument, if you only need 200m - why can't we get that subdivided. Get a whole loft/shed thing going on with your own little slice of heaven.
Some of us can't afford the $400,000 for 400m but can afford $200K for sub-200m to build our shed/houses on.
And cross-leasing is like marrying your neighbors. Give me freehold fee simple any day.

Hobsonville Point is kind of on the way there - the lots are more like 275 - 300 I believe? But I dont' think you can buy a section?

Totally agree with you though.. we just assume that everyone wants 400m2... we assume everyone wants 3-4 bedrooms, 2 garage, 2-3 bathrooms, 2 living rooms...

And the reason this is assumed - it's what's most profitable for Mr Developer because it's the easiest route to take in getting Consent from the council because of the ridiculously shit rules and zoning regulations.

[Brett]

Hobsonville Point is kind of on the way there - the lots are more like 275 - 300 I believe? But I dont' think you can buy a section?

Totally agree with you though.. we just assume that everyone wants 400m2... we assume everyone wants 3-4 bedrooms, 2 garage, 2-3 bathrooms, 2 living rooms...

And the reason this is assumed - it's what's most profitable for Mr Developer because it's the easiest route to take in getting Consent from the council because of the ridiculously shit rules and zoning regulations.

Councils largely dictate the sizes of the sites, along with cost of site acquisition - ie the price of the vendor on the land is based on how many sites it can be cut into.

Hobsonville point is pretty expensive for what you get! Although, nothing is cheap in Auckland anymore.Still....600k for a 180m2 3 beddy that far from town...no thanks. I am just finishing an architecturally designed, 230m2, 4 bedroom (Double rooms) with study, 2 bathroom, separate lounge, Tuscan brick and tile house with a reasonably high spec in The Gardens on 410m2, which we are selling for around the same price...and I know which I would rather have if I was looking for a home in that price bracket. But hey, everyone is different...and thank goodness for that.