Old multi-cylinder bikes of the 50s to later on. Japanese, British, Euro, etc

**husaberg** · 28th December 2013, 18:04

Originally Posted by Kickaha

Might have been Ferry Brouwer I think they built a 350/3 and a 500/3

Likely was a clever bloke, i think Kenny roberts set up was based out the back of the Dutch Yam importer as well in a "workshop" for a fair while as well.

**dangerous** · 28th December 2013, 19:13

Originally Posted by Kickaha

The transporter that he built was based on a citroen station wagon,he's also done some stuff with solar race vehicles

pure tast this man... TR6 if Im not mistaken

**Kickaha** · 28th December 2013, 19:16

Originally Posted by dangerous

pure tast this man... TR6 if Im not mistaken

I don't think the pommy pile of shit was his

**husaberg** · 28th December 2013, 19:26

the side car looks like it tips its hat to the batmobile as well

**husaberg** · 29th December 2013, 06:26

Originally Posted by dangerous

what are we debating here? cos ya all lost me

Radial = pots in a radial format
Vee = pots in a V format
Paralell = pots side by side
Square = pots in a square format
Ell = pots in a L format
Tandom = KR
Transverse = any formate with crank (cranks) laying paralell with the bike
Flat = the pots are on their farking flat

all reguardles off number of cranks

LOL another layout to argue over
Trapezoid

**Grumph** · 29th December 2013, 08:30

I'd call it the result of a designer with too much free time - and too much Saki on board...

If one aim was more transfer port space, looking at the pic showing the cases from the right, I'd call it a fail as they still look shallow and small....

**husaberg** · 29th December 2013, 08:46

Originally Posted by Grumph

I'd call it the result of a designer with too much free time - and too much Saki on board...

If one aim was more transfer port space, looking at the pic showing the cases from the right, I'd call it a fail as they still look shallow and small....

I see it as like all designs a compromise. Although in the Black and white pic in my post it does look like it does overhang the crank so maybe its not so bad? it could also be 6 transfer port as well?
In this case in order to both keep it reasonably narrow and keep the wheelbase down.
i would like to see some inside pics myself

I only just seen the inside pics of A "real" KR250 the other day. Its so bloodly clever.........
I like it far far better than a Rotax or its ilk. IMO its a better compromise........
I would do a v angle version though.........If i would get around to it lol.
Having said that i like the look of a repackaged longitudinal boxer "Koing but different" sort of 45 degree and stacked on the gearbox.

**Bender** · 29th December 2013, 09:50

Those Kwakkas sure are sexy.

**husaberg** · 29th December 2013, 12:48

...........

Yendor, on Dec 12 2006, 14:07, said: Hi Phillipe and thank you for the welcome. I did work with Rudi for a while and whilst with him I had the opportunity to ride the solo at the French GP at Paul Ricard. It used the same engine as the outfit but suffered cooling problems due to the somewhat limited space for a radiator compared with the sidecar version. This lead to several exiting moments on the Mistral Straight when the cooling system reached bursting point and relieved itself through the radiator cap straight up under the screen and back into my face, the resulting steam cloud rendering me temporarely blind whilst flat out :rotfl: The wheels were six spoke Offenstadts with three spokes removed

Due to its light weight and extremely low build the handling was superb, but the brakes, which I believe were Dunstall, were hopeless. The rear suspension was catilever using a modified Citroen car unit much the same as the three wheeler. The workmanship, as with all Rudis project was superb. With further developement I think it would have been quite successful. Unfortunately the pressure of Rudis GP campaign and the fact that I left prematurely to join Kawasaki meant the end to my involvement.

Chris, Rudi Kurth's first "CAT" outfit was powered by a Crescent 3 cylinder based on a powerboat outboard engine . He used that in 1974 and the chassis , although a very low monocoque , still kept the basis of the "classical" sidecars i.e a front "earles"-style fork . The later "CAT" outfit that I was thinking of was a totally different design , with just a central piece with the three wheels attached by triangular car-style suspensions....that was the one fitted with a Yamaha triple, he used it in 1976 I think....I would need to dig deep into my old magazines to set things straight in terms of chronology, I'm not certain now who first experimented with car-style suspensions on the sidecars, Rudi Kurth, Rolf Biland with his first Seymaz , or even for you Brits the Boret brothers with their Renwick König

Anyway, to come back to the original topic, from what you are saying Chris it does appear than the earliest Yamaha triple experiments indeed took place in Britain....you always learn something on this forum !

**pete376403** · 29th December 2013, 12:49

Did the KR750-4 ever race? or even run in testing?

**dangerous** · 29th December 2013, 16:34

Originally Posted by husaberg

LOL another layout to argue over
Trapezoid

wanker...

well theres many a desine similer to that like the 'ross yoke stirling' or the one I cant remember that has a single crank 2 rows a pots pistons being triangle shaped (in use today) Ill have to read up on ya Kawa, cos I dont see any advantage

**husaberg** · 29th December 2013, 20:25

Originally Posted by dangerous

wanker...
Ill have to read up on ya Kawa, cos I dont see any advantage

well its narrower than the kawa 3
Shorter than the conventional Square 4. With more room for transfers and reeds(why the RG500's had 6 transfers)
I guess the layout would also lend it self to the rider being able to tuck in neatly
has many disadvantages too, i guess, thats why there we are not all running around on them.

Originally Posted by pete376403

Did the KR750-4 ever race? or even run in testing?

No idea...........edit race no tested yes

the trapezoid story was broken by REVS in Sydney. I've just asked ex editor Mike Esdaile. Here's his answer:

"The Trapezoid 750/4 photos and part of the article were from a story Brian Cowan did for REVS with pix from Greg McBean.
"I got the 'scoop' because I asked Neville the right question.
"British MCN had speculated on it - saying it was a square four.
"So I asked Neville, was Kawasaki developing a 750 square four?
"He said 'no'.
"So Cowan and I pondered this for a while, and next time I called Neville, I asked: "is Kawasaki developing a 750cc two-stroke four cylinder race bike
of ANY engine configuration.
"He paused, then said 'yes'.
"We talked some more then he offered us the exclusive, if we would send someone to Melbourne.
"So I sent BC and Greg and voila...
"It was fitted into a KR750 chassis and they were trying to develop that at the same time Greg was racing the KR250 & KR350 in 1978. They also had the KR750/3 for Internationals and in between all that Neville was trying to get the 750 4 sorted.
"I understand they had some vibration issues that caused some problems."

By 1978 the KR had seen the best of its days and factory support had all but diminished, efforts back at the factory had turned to an all-new four-cylinder race engine, the 602S. This featured a strange, trapezoid cylinder arrangement that allowed the engine to be even narrower (50mm) than the triple that preceded it. Two of the reed-valve 750cc engines where produced and rumoured to produce around 145bhp, one engine was slotted into a KR like chassis and showed much promise, Australian Hansford riding it in practise at the Italian 750 round, but electing to use the older triple for the race after vibration with the four proved troublesome. The 602S was returned to Japan never to be seen again and with end F750 racing being forecast some time before work began, it is more likely that this design was really the basis of Kawasaki’s entry into 500GP racing, albeit when they did return it was with a square-four, disc-valve machine.

The project for this bikes was called "602S".

Kawasaki lost interest in this one due the cancellation of the F750 class. If you want to know more about it talk to Ken Yoshida - he was "the father" of this one as well. I have met him a couple of years ago and had a good and very interesting talk with him.

Kawasaki also had a project in the shadows that was altogether revolutionary, built around a liquid-cooled two stroke “trapezoid” configuration. A trapezoid, shown at the head of this story, has one side shorter than its opposite. The Kawasaki trapzoid engine, with the front bank of cylinders narrower than the rear, is shown below left of the trapezoid diagram.

Pictures exist of this engine in mule chassis like both the H2 and the Z1 (the second and third photos above). But emission standards in the United States had begun to close the door on the big two-stroke. Kawasaki’s H2 was gone by 1977, and Suzuki’s Water Buffalo was finished by 1978. If Kawasaki entertained any serious plans to up the ante on its quick two-strokes, the success of the Z1 proved it unadvisable. The street-going trapezoid Kawasaki never saw the light of day.

Later, in 1978, Kawasaki brought forward a trapezoid two-stroke again, but only for racing purposes (pictured above right). The inboard/outboard relationship of its cylinders was the opposite from the street prototype (the racing engine, shown left, had its narrower bank of cylinders to the rear), but it was clearly a continuation of the concept. Designated the 602S and intended to capture the World Formula 750 title, it was tested by Gregg Hansford, but never entered in competition. Those familiar with the machine say the “trapezoidal” geared crank configuration allowed for quick adoption of a vast range of different cylinder firing order.

Unfortunately, having never been fully developed for street or racing use, the Kawasaki trapezoids remained trapped in time by the new rules of the EPA and the demise of Formula 750, the last season for which was 1979.

Down below is meant to be a 750 3 frame that once housed the Trapezoid 4 note the width.....

**cotswold** · 11th January 2014, 08:07

**F5 Dave** · 11th January 2014, 12:11

Ok so here's a question; old tanks like on the first clip of the kawa, what's the porpoise of the round hollow with the cap screwed in discs at the rear sides of the tank?