Buckets fuel rule

**kel** · 23rd May 2013, 17:39

This got a pretty good thrasing out on the ESE thread so I thought I'd start a poll to see what people think.

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating

24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

10-17-1 Allows for Avgas and FIM unleaded meaning super good but expensive Elf, VP etc are OK to use. Pump fuel E10 has also been added to 10-17-1 but our class supplementary “Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited” means we can’t use it.
I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. - I tried to propose this rule change to MNZ through the Auckland club but it seems it never got to MNZ.
Why change you ask, well several reasons
A. Cost; pump fuels are cheap compared to Avgas and FIM unleaded
B. Availability; This stuff can be bought at most petrol stations - actually this one is incorrect and should read; This stuff can be bought at North Island petrol stations
C. Toxicity; unlike Avgas all other pump fuels are lead free
D. Quality; the biofuel blends are generally good quality
E. Power; while the pump biofuels wont match the super expensive FIM fuel, if used in a correctly set up motor they can produce good power even similar to Avgas (E85 rather than E10).

So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.

Now the other obvious problem is that fuel additives are prohibited. All two strokes have an additive in the fuel called oil, but hey you’d have to be a complete wanker to protest that one right.

**crazy man** · 23rd May 2013, 18:27

Originally Posted by kel

This got a pretty good thrasing out on the ESE thread so I thought I'd start a poll to see what people think.

We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating

24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.

10-17-1 Allows for Avgas and FIM unleaded meaning super good but expensive Elf, VP etc are OK to use. Pump fuel E10 has also been added to 10-17-1 but our class supplementary “Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited” means we can’t use it.
I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. - I tried to propose this rule change to MNZ through the Auckland club but it seems it never got to MNZ.
Why change you ask, well several reasons
A. Cost; pump fuels are cheap compared to Avgas and FIM unleaded
B. Availability; This stuff can be bought at most petrol stations
C. Toxicity; unlike Avgas all other pump fuels are lead free
D. Quality; the biofuel blends are generally good quality
E. Power; while the pump biofuels wont match the super expensive FIM fuel, if used in a correctly set up motor they can produce good power even similar to Avgas (E85 rather than E10).

So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.

Now the other obvious problem is that fuel additives are prohibited. All two strokes have an additive in the fuel called oil, but hey you’d have to be a complete wanker to protest that one right.

looks like rich has now won the gp lmao

**Yow Ling** · 23rd May 2013, 19:10

Avgas is a pump gas, available at the local Challenge and also at the track, but you seem a bit down on it.
Is this really just a crusade against Avgas or trying to include Ethanol blend fuels , with just a little dislike of Avgas ?

**kel** · 23rd May 2013, 19:31

Originally Posted by Yow Ling

Avgas is a pump gas, available at the local Challenge and also at the track, but you seem a bit down on it.
Is this really just a crusade against Avgas or trying to include Ethanol blend fuels , with just a little dislike of Avgas ?

I've done my dash with Avgas. After breathing in way too much exhaust fumes during dyno time plus with the amount I spill on myself, I think my lead levels are just about right. Plus Im tight. I want access to a cheaper, safer fuels that can still deliver reasonable power.

**Kickaha** · 23rd May 2013, 19:59

Originally Posted by kel

I've done my dash with Avgas. After breathing in way too much exhaust fumes during dyno time plus with the amount I spill on myself, I think my lead levels are just about right. Plus Im tight. I want access to a cheaper, safer fuels that can still deliver reasonable power.

As far as safe goes avgas doesnt even rate a mention when you're talking bike racing as there's a lot more things likely to fuck you up, for the amount used it's not that expensive and is readily available (at least in the South)

By all means get E85 approved but dont give avgas the arse while you're doing it

**Grumph** · 23rd May 2013, 20:15

E10 and E15 when it comes on stream. Yes.
E85 No.....

If you're going to legalise E85 you may as well go the whole hog and legalise Methanol.

Billy on the other thread remarked that there are a lot of things available at the pump which shouldn't be race fuels. Quite true.

So IMO specify that any pump fuel on which road tax is paid at the pump is usable PLUS Avgas....as while it is available at the pump down here, I understand it's nominally for marine use and road tax is not usually charged.

**TZ350** · 23rd May 2013, 20:19

I think the fuel rule in 24.2.5 should be deleted so we have the same fuel choices, like the real road racers do and I would welcome something cheaper than Av Gas.

**Yow Ling** · 23rd May 2013, 20:26

Originally Posted by TZ350

I think the fuel rule in 24.2.5 should be deleted so we have the same fuel choices, like the other road racers do and I would welcome something cheaper than Av Gas.

Sorry TZ, dont undersell Buckets

**TZ350** · 23rd May 2013, 20:30

Thanks ..... saved

I hope nobody else notices.

**Flettner** · 23rd May 2013, 20:36

I'm in , don't believe a word of it, E85 is good stuff. This will help air cooled engines no end ( twostrokes ). Although it's not cheaper as you you will burn it at approx twice the rate. Should be cheaper! I'm not sure of the cost of Gull pump E85? I mix my own at E90 with BP 98 octane petrol. My fuel costs approx 3 dollars a litre ( then burn at twice the rate ) yes a bit expensive! 350 single with cast iron sleeve, 16 to one comp, heavy squish and a tiroidal combustion chamber. No detonation even on a hard 40K open fast ride. Nice punch out of corners. It does seem to need about 5% extra fuel after 70 degrees engine temp, not sure why? The way the fuel vaporizes perhaps? I did run it in a carburetor engine for a while but this 5% problem made it hard to control ( with my setup ). Some plastics and rubbers don't like it, all common knowledge now and fiberglass ( tanks and reeds ) most certainly are out. Carbon reeds appear to be no problem. EFI systems, no problems, I had a pump split once, rattling around loose under the bike so I took it apart. Two years soaked in ethanol, It looked brand new. Bosch injectors are made for it.
Not saying no to Av Gas, just allow ethanol as well. Might be good for supercharged fourstrokes perhaps

By the way since running ethanol I have had no piston problems, no melt downs, zero damage, the underside of the piston gets pretty dark! Same rod kit as I started with, I don't clean the engine with running petrol after ethanol, just turn it off and leave it in the corner of the shed until it's dragged out for it's next thrashing.

**husaberg** · 23rd May 2013, 21:06

E10 E15 sure.
Def a no to E85 though it would mean an unfair advantage to the air-cooled 2t 125's and far too many big block four strokes blow ups sorry.
The Lead free is a red hering as far as i am concerned

**ac3_snow** · 23rd May 2013, 21:20

Could someone please explain what E10 and E85 actually are? My petrol knowledge is limited to the fact that I can get 91 or 95/98 from the gas station or 'av' gas from Onehunga.

**CHOPPA** · 23rd May 2013, 21:21

Cant see MNZ sending samples away for testing for buckets

**Buddha#81:Me** · 23rd May 2013, 21:30

I sorta missread the thread. I'm all for ex pump for cost and ease to obtain. We are lucky in chch to have challenge waimak, gaden city heli (with race licence) & ruapuna selling av gas. I just run BP 98.