Market value?

[ldcroberts]

Incidentally, you're the only one that has mentioned a phantom bike

I was referring to what the valuers have been using to estimate the value, they say if a bike was for sale it would be at this price (highest valuation I've got from a motorcycle dealer is $9350 for my bike - again based on the hypothetical phantom bike for sale - not an actual bike that is actually for sale)

[Oscar]

However, compensation for damages is supposed to be based on what would happen in a fair market (not a bike market).

1. Sez who?
2. Explain the difference between a "fair market" and a "bike market".

[ldcroberts]

No you don't have to "Meet the market" ... or any sellers expectations. You have to prove that your used and very second hand wreck was worth more than you are currently offered by said insurance guys. To date ... you haven't proved such. Nor made any Stated) attempt to prove such. A whinge on KB is all you've done.

Ok to update you, I talked with a motorcycle dealer and got a valuation sheet typed up for my bike with kms at $9350, presented that to the insurance company, and they want to meet me half way between $9k and that - so their offer is now $9175

[skippa1]

Ok to update you, I talked with a motorcycle dealer and got a valuation sheet typed up for my bike with kms at $9350, presented that to the insurance company, and they want to meet me half way between $9k and that - so their offer is now $9175

That's terrible. I hope you turned it down and told them you intend to overhaul the whole insurance industry in NZ

[ldcroberts]

1. Sez who?
2. Explain the difference between a "fair market" and a "bike market".

For reference you can look up this on wikipeda under "market value", as well as look at notes from actual legal cases online where the jury is instructed to consider things based on a fair market.

The difference is basically a fair market has a willing seller, and a willing buyer, and everything that can be known about the item is known by both parties, and they negotiate a fair value together.

In the case of the bike market, for near new vehicles you almost always have an unwilling seller who has mitigating circumstances, and the buyer will ask questions about how it was treated, reasons for selling, etc, and only believe half of it. This results in a lower price for the buyer as the seller has to come down until it is sold, and the buyer is suspicious so they offer less and consider the amount they saved to offset the "risk" of later finding out something important about the vehicle that was hidden during the negotiations by the seller (a funny rattle at a certain speed, etc).

It's kind of like the difference between buying a bike off a mate you trust vs a stranger on trademe - that is a bit closer to a fair market but only from the point of view that you know more about the bike when you are buying it.

[ldcroberts]

That's terrible. I hope you turned it down and told them you intend to overhaul the whole insurance industry in NZ

Well that's what I have to decide this weekend. Do I really have the energy for that, hmm maybe, hardly worth it for a couple of hundred bucks, but it might be worth it just for the fairness it brings to everyone else.

[skippa1]

Well that's what I have to decide this weekend. Do I really have the energy for that, hmm maybe, hardly worth it for a couple of hundred bucks, but it might be worth it just for the fairness it brings to everyone else.

You should, you really should! It's for the good of us all, you have the ideal opportunity with your situation, great reference material and an eye for what's fair and reasonable.

actually thinking about it, we could all chip in to cover your costs as it's for all of us

[Oscar]

For reference you can look up this on wikipeda under "market value", as well as look at notes from actual legal cases online where the jury is instructed to consider things based on a fair market.

Care to name one case in NZ?
Or a statute where it applies?

[FJRider]

it's not smart to buy new with a view to on-selling quickly sure. If you intend to keep it for 10 years then buy new so you know it's been cared for.

Well ... at least you know how you rode and looked after it ... with all your accumulated years of motorcycling experience ... (on non ABS bike(s ??)

Depreciation only happens on paper, you don't lose money unless you sell. I had no intention of selling, but now I have to.

On paper yes ... the folding stuff everybody likes ... and (again) ... YOU ARE NOT SELLING. You are being offered a replacement value. Your previous intentions are irrelevant.

If the guy who hit me is forcing me to effectively lose money through his actions, he's culpable for that too.

Nobody can/will FORCE you to sign the paper transferring ownership. Either accept or refuse the offer. (such is negotiation) Refuse and court action is probably your only remaining choice of options .. good luck with that.

It is between me and him, his insurance company can claim whatever policies they want, they have to honour his obligation at the end of the day.

Ummmm ... no ... Obligation does not necessarily mean a legally required action. Offers not promises were made. They can however say ... SEE YOU IN COURT .... Let the Judge decide ..

[FJRider]

1. Sez who?
2. Explain the difference between a "fair market" and a "bike market".

The OP is (now) an expert on market values ... and how such figures should be ascertained. How dare you question his experience and integrity ...

[Scubbo]

you're just so lucky you didnt get hit by an uninsured person... as is so common in south auckland -- silver lining!!!

[ldcroberts]

Care to name one case in NZ?
Or a statute where it applies?

I understand that it's international

Some information obtained:

Reparation is a principle of law that has existed for centuries, referring to the obligation of a wrongdoing party to redress the damage caused to the injured party. Under international law, "reparation must, as far as possible, wipe out all the consequences of the illegal act and re-establish the situation which would, in all probability, have existed if that act had not been committed."(2)

The right to reparation is a well-established principle of international law. The International Law Commission affirmed this principle in its 53rd Session when it adopted the draft articles on responsibility of States for internationally wrongful acts.(3) The right is also firmly embodied in international human rights treaties and declarative instruments (4) and has been further refined by the jurisprudence of a large number of international and regional courts, as well as other treaty bodies and complaints mechanisms.(5)


further:

International Valuation Standards defines market value as "the estimated amount for which a property should exchange on the date of valuation between a willing buyer and a willing seller in an arm’s-length transaction after proper marketing wherein the parties had each acted knowledgeably, prudently, and without compulsion."[1]

Market value is a concept distinct from market price, which is “the price at which one can transact”, while market value is “the true underlying value” according to theoretical standards. The concept is most commonly invoked in inefficient markets or disequilibrium situations where prevailing market prices are not reflective of true underlying market value. For market price to equal market value, the market must be informationally efficient and rational expectations must prevail.

[Gremlin]

This thread is now Epic... that's with a capital E too

[FJRider]

For reference you can look up this on wikipeda under "market value", as well as look at notes from actual legal cases online where the jury is instructed to consider things based on a fair market.

The difference is basically a fair market has a willing seller, and a willing buyer, and everything that can be known about the item is known by both parties, and they negotiate a fair value together.

Definition of Market Value ....

The highest price a willing buyer would pay and a willing seller would accept, both being fully informed, and the property being exposed for sale ...

My definition of fair obviously differs from yours. Who is to say a jury member would agree with YOUR opinion of fair .. ??

In the case of the bike market, for near new vehicles you almost always have an unwilling seller who has mitigating circumstances, and the buyer will ask questions about how it was treated, reasons for selling, etc, and only believe half of it. This results in a lower price for the buyer as the seller has to come down until it is sold, and the buyer is suspicious so they offer less and consider the amount they saved to offset the "risk" of later finding out something important about the vehicle that was hidden during the negotiations by the seller (a funny rattle at a certain speed, etc).

So ... I can believe the owner of the 427 powered 57 Chev I was looking at on Trade Me ... "Only driven to Church on Sundays" .. ???

It's kind of like the difference between buying a bike off a mate you trust vs a stranger on trademe - that is a bit closer to a fair market but only from the point of view that you know more about the bike when you are buying it.

You trust your mates ... ... they'll want a "Mates" discount ...

[FJRider]

... actually thinking about it, we could all chip in to cover your costs as it's for all of us

I'd be happy to offer my two cents worth (in the interest of fairness of course) ... where do I send the cheque .. ???