Oddball engines and prototypes

[husaberg]

Pics of interest out of Frits Jawa file.

[WilDun]

The Clisby 24 cylinder "Formula 1” engine

Looks like bevel gears are used to drive the output shaft! - that's something new which I haven't seen before! (How efficient is bevel gearing compared to normal "straight" gears?)- must say it's a very compact answer though.

Flettner - Possible aircraft engine? (not necessarily 24 cylinder of course), maybe 4?

[Flettner]

Yes, fascinating few pages for sure. Where is all this development stuff, boiled down to regulated fourstrokes these days, all the same.

[husaberg]

Looks like bevel gears are used to drive the output shaft! - that's something new which I haven't seen before! (How efficient is bevel gearing compared to normal "straight" gears?)- must say it's a very compact answer though.

Flettner - Possible aircraft engine? (not necessarily 24 cylinder of course), maybe 4?

Shaft drive on a motorbike has two of them, unless its a BMW or similar layout like a Gucci..............then it only has one
plenty of distributor drives are the same also.
As where plenty of old time ohc drives like the venerable Nanx Norton and old pre Pantah Ducati's

[pete376403]

Shaft drive on a motorbike has two of them, unless its a BMW or similar layout like a Gucci..............then it only has one
plenty of distributor drives are the same also.
As where plenty of old time ohc drives like the venerable Nanx Norton and old pre Pantah Ducati's

And the new W650 / 800 Kawasaki has bevel drive OHC as well

[husaberg]

And the new W650 / 800 Kawasaki has bevel drive OHC as well

Diffs have them as well
plus some Excelsior Manxman and NSU Renmax twins

Plus the early Honda racers were as well.

[WilDun]

Diffs have them as well
plus some Excelsior Manxman and NSU Renmax twins
Plus the early Honda racers were as well.

True.

And the new W650 / 800 Kawasaki has bevel drive OHC as well

True.

Shaft drive on a motorbike has two of them,
plenty of distributor drives are the same also.
As where plenty of old time ohc drives like the venerable Nanx Norton and old pre Pantah Ducati's

Also True and there's a host of other examples! from between the wars.

But ........ none delivering the power to the rear wheels!

What I was saying, well asking really, was why does it need bevel gearing to the output shaft when the crankshafts could be in line with the output shaft and use straight gears? - maybe more convenient for positioning exhausts?

[tjbw]

Will,

Some shaft drive bikes do indeed have the power unit rotated 90 degrees, e.g. Honda ST1100, and Triumph Rocket III.

They still need bevel gears at the rear wheel though.

[WilDun]

Will,

Some shaft drive bikes do indeed have the power unit rotated 90 degrees, e.g. Honda ST1100, and Triumph Rocket III.

They still need bevel gears at the rear wheel though.

True again and these are sometimes (power soaking) spiral bevels, but remember they are operating at much lower speeds than those operating at crankshaft speeds.

Around 1969, I had a 1948 Mk.2 KSS Velocette engine, which was fitted in an Ariel Red Hunter frame and I occasionally used it (just for fun) at the easier motocross meetings.
It had a bevel gear drive to the OHC and the shaft between was fitted with an Oldham Coupling - it used to rattle like a skeleton in a barrel!
A (miserable) guy came up to me one day and gave me "a jolly good ticking off" for even considering taking that engine out on the track, he said it should be carefully rebuilt and kept in a display case!
I asked him if he would like to buy it ........End of story!

[tjbw]

Sounds like a good pairing. Did you modify the Red Hunter frame in any way?

Red Hunter was developed into HT5, which in turn was modified by Sammy Miller, to become one of the most successful competition bikes of all time.

[WilDun]

Sounds like a good pairing. Did you modify the Red Hunter frame in any way?

Red Hunter was developed into HT5, which in turn was modified by Sammy Miller, to become one of the most successful competition bikes of all time.

I didn't actually do the modifications,I just bought it as a fun bike for the occasional easy motocross outing, it was a good pairing because I don't think that the original Velocette frame would have been suitable for the dirt.
In my first outing I managed to beat the guy who sold it to me and he was highly pissed off because he had bought a very good "looking" AMC scrambler and he complained bitterly that I didn't let him past!

Didn't win anything with that ancient machine, but I had a lot of fun!

Oh and Sammy Miller came from Belfast too and started off his career in road racing, he rode a 250 Mondial, beating Mike Hailwood at the NW 200! - Think Hailwood was on an NSU.

[WilDun]

I remember Sammy Miller with his highly modified Ariel trials bike - beating everyone in sight..........then the lightweight Bultacos turned up and trials never was the same again!and Ariel started to fall apart.

[husaberg]

Here is a real oddball Porsche 911 head bolts onto BSA B50
http://www.b50.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=291

question for you euros. Which one came first? When I designed that 1st Aries B50 piston, I worked for two weeks drawing that up and sent it in. Almost right away I get a call from Aries and I'm thinking, " Oh Oh, I must have asked for something stupid". The guy says, "Why didn't you just say you wanted a Porsche 911 piston with a .750" Pin?" ( The Porsche has a 23mm pin). Later I found out that when Dan Gurney @ AAR made the B50 for Chuck Palmgren to race "TTs" in American flattrack, they cut the fins off from a 911 cylinder and put what was left in a B50 instead of the stock sleeve and used a stock 911 piston. Naturally they were using a Carrillo rod so they had Jack make it with a 23mm piston pin hole. Later yet I saw a 911 cylinder, head, and piston on eBay so I bought them. Now here's where it REALLY gets weird. Except that the bolts and holes are metric, everything fits. You can put a 911 cylinder right on a B50 and the B50 head fits the cylinder. The valves are possitioned the same with the same angle and the 911 head fits right on a B50 cylinder. Now THIS is the really weird part, the stud pattern for the 911 OHC box is almost the same as the B50 rockerbox. By removing 1-2 studs, the B50 Rockerbox will bolt right on a 911 head. Now I believe that is way too much to be just luck so someone must have copied someone. My question is who? If you guys want, I can take some pics of these pieces intermixed and send them to Rickard..... Stan

[tjbw]

I remember Sammy Miller with his highly modified Ariel trials bike - beating everyone in sight..........then the lightweight Bultacos turned up and trials never was the same again!and Ariel started to fall apart.

Sammy developed the Bultaco Sherpa N, and kept on winning on it.

I had thought his success on the Ariel was partly due to the smooth torque characteristics of the 4 stroke HT5, so was quite surprised that he adjusted to the two stroke Bultaco right away.

Some more info on Sammy and his Bultaco here:

http://www.retrotrials.com/the-actua...t-forever.html

[tjbw]

Moto Guzzi W4?

This is just a mock-up. It was considered for ultralight use, but I don't think it was ever produced.

It's two 90 degree V twins with new crankcase, and contra-rotating crankshafts.