The rules.

[Drew]

Something was raised in the ESE thread and I thought I'd stir some shit.

If you saw him clearly go down why did YOU not report that to an official? We were unsure of the situation and had to have faith that the rider did the right thing. It is after all a riders prerogative to re-enter for a check and should not require a black flag. As the laps progressed several people questioned the situation but it was still unclear so we allowed him to ride on with a view to a penalty IF at the end of the race it was clear that the bike had gone down. In our view if he had not gone down and we called him in that would have been a lot worse for us. Initially we discussed a penalty of 30 seconds, the steward encouraged a penalty of 20. We had both riders reps, Nathaniel and Dave, 4 race officials and the steward present to discuss the situation and apply the penalty. No situation like this is easy to make a decision on.

It is not the job of racers to bring shit to the attention of officials, unless they want to protest.

If the officials were discussing a penalty at all, the rider should have been disqualified as it is a clear MNZ directive that a crashed bike cannot rejoin a race after crashing, without being safety checked.

Just another case of people running events, failing to do what the positions require.

[Grumph]

It is not the job of racers to bring shit to the attention of officials, unless they want to protest.

That's one of the functions of the riders rep. If you see something which gives you concerns, tell them.

[Kickaha]

it is a clear MNZ directive that a crashed bike cannot rejoin a race after crashing, without being safety checked.

Is it though? there was confusion about this even at the first rounds of the Nationals this year, is it actually in the rule book?

[sidecar bob]

It doesn't really matter, because it wasn't proper racing, just buckets.

Is rather push a superbike than ride a bucket.

[F5 Dave]

Are you certain of that Drew? It is clear there is a penalty for many things but disqualification mandatory for not coming in? I certainly don't know.

I was riders rep. I was racing and saw nothing so was surprised to be called over. I initially thought it was a shame to put the boot in too heavily the rider was clearly the fastest and should have won.
Not important said Steve.
I thought about it for a second and realised he was totaly right.
So a penalty was applied and the very experienced Clark went to look up a similar ruling. The officials let him being most experienced decide. I can't see a problem with this.

So I saw the officials make a call to impose a rule that they didn't see at the time. They made a better call than I would have at the time which is probably why I'm not an official.

So the real question is how much should that penalty be?
Perhaps the rules are clear its disqualification as Drew suggests.
If a penalty the how much should it be?
Now I've thought about this my position has hardened and the penalty should be more than how long it would have lost him (to ride into the very short chute have an official observe nothing hanging off and out again.)

Perhaps 1 lap for dismissing a clear rule? Disqualification if there is a fault with the bike?
But remember that riders do forget shit in the heat of the battle.

I think its a real shame for all involved. This is supposed to be fun. But I think ripping on officials too much will ensure the end of racing.

[kel]

. I initially thought it was a shame to put the boot in too heavily the rider was clearly the fastest and should have won.

He was the fastest no question, but that doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him. It would have been really something to see him come in after the crash, have the bike checked, then go out hunt down the front runners and win the race. But he didn't, he blatantly disregarded the rule. Don't forget Adlam was black flagged for exactly the same offence last year.
The riders briefing was clear, in fact if I remember correctly Robin said anyone who didn't comply with the rules would be marched.

[mr bucketracer]

officials not following the rules will be more the end of racing , he new the rules , should of been blacked flaged which is game over .anyone else would of been.

[Dutchee]

He was the fastest no question, but that doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him. It would have been really something to see him come in after the crash, have the bike checked, then go out hunt down the front runners and win the race. But he didn't, he blatantly disregarded the rule. Don't forget Adlam was black flagged for exactly the same offence last year.
The riders briefing was clear, in fact if I remember correctly Robin said anyone who didn't comply with the rules would be marched.

I was not there this year, but was last year. when "Andrew" crashed, we could see him. what we missed was it was Caleb who had crashed (and who went in to be scrutineered). With timing it was easy to sort it out.

You can not see the whole track from the start/finish lines. robin wanders off to peer over the other side at times, but the officials also rely on everyone racing and flagging for eyes.

I have raced after crashing and not being scrutineereed, just never thought of it in the heat of the moment, and it was my first crash. Kamil had sort of looked over my bike, and it was on the grass, but I honestly stuffed up.

Ah well, yet another bit of controversy, you all had time yesterday to talk to the officials, the call was made. That race is over.
Ze bitch Michelle

[Rick 52]

Are you certain of that Drew? It is clear there is a penalty for many things but disqualification mandatory for not coming in? I certainly don't know.

I was riders rep. I was racing and saw nothing so was surprised to be called over. I initially thought it was a shame to put the boot in too heavily the rider was clearly the fastest and should have won.
Not important said Steve.
I thought about it for a second and realised he was totaly right.
So a penalty was applied and the very experienced Clark went to look up a similar ruling. The officials let him being most experienced decide. I can't see a problem with this.

So I saw the officials make a call to impose a rule that they didn't see at the time. They made a better call than I would have at the time which is probably why I'm not an official.

So the real question is how much should that penalty be?
Perhaps the rules are clear its disqualification as Drew suggests.
If a penalty the how much should it be?
Now I've thought about this my position has hardened and the penalty should be more than how long it would have lost him (to ride into the very short chute have an official observe nothing hanging off and out again.)

Perhaps 1 lap for dismissing a clear rule? Disqualification if there is a fault with the bike?
But remember that riders do forget shit in the heat of the battle.

I think its a real shame for all involved. This is supposed to be fun. But I think ripping on officials too much will ensure the end of racing.

Well written Dave, I'm glad i didn't have to make this decision, someone should have lodged a appeal but didn't..
I think we can all lean a lesson from this and move on, The Adlams had a FANTASTIC attitude towards this, even though they were gutted, I hope this do's not make the organizers feel bad a stop doing a great job, go easy fellas please .

[TZ350]

So the real question is how much should that penalty be?

The same as was imposed on the other guy last year when they thought he didn't come in, the same as it was said it would be at riders briefing, anything else will look like favoritism.

If you don't mean it, don't say it, but if you say it, then do it.

[seymour14]

Sorry to do this, but I will.

I overheard the official state that the penalty he applied was based on a jump start. In other words, no one knew what penalty was warranted.

I think a 1 lap minimum was called for (but it was a blatant black flag issue),1 lap is easily what would have been lost in getting the bike back to pits, entering pit lane, getting an official to scrutinize the bike, and then safely re-enter the race.

It changed the whole scene of the race from that point on, because he carried on, got in the lead, and second place backed off after a while when he could no longer keep up.

To top it off the official mentioned that the 15 minute protest time was over, even though they had spent the whole time talking amongst themselves, and no one else even really knew what was transpiring. Has put a very bad taste in some people's mouths this has. Especially a blatant double standard.

It takes a bit to piss me off, but this ruined what had been a great weekend.

[Henk]

Not being one of the officials at this meeting but having been one of the organisers. I'm going to wade in with this.

Some of you feel that the meeting was poorly run because of this incident.


Feel strongly enough about it to run the meeting next year?

[Yow Ling]

If any of you guys had been to St Bedes school you would know what to do.

[kel]

Some of you feel that the meeting was poorly run because of this incident.

Feel strongly enough about it to run the meeting next year?

That depends, do we also get to change the rules to suit? If yes then count me in. Open carbs for 125's or a Tokoroa 20, open fuel or a Tokoroa 20, in fact anything you can think of for a Tokoroa 20.
The organisers did a great job of running the event, was a great weekend, but that doesn't change the fact that the officials completely cocked up this call. For you guys to claim anything else is just ridiculous.
To add to what has already said on the sequence of events, During the race I saw the official's discussing what I assumed was Nathanial's choice to continue on, I saw Robin come and talk directly to Dave while Dave was standing at pit entrance waiting for Nathaniel to come in. All seemed in hand, and clearly it was, the Tokoroa 20!

[TZ350]

Some of you feel that the meeting was poorly run because of this incident.

That is actually not true, and has never been expressed.