A crashed Bucket

[Grumph]

I thought 107 would have been just fine with open carb & 3cc increase - big deal. We didn't get that, we got something else.

In the immortal words of Blind Willie, you don't always get what you want....The difficult bit here is identifying whose barrow was being pushed out - and what they hoped to gain. Besides of course a monumental fuckup in the rulebook...

[speedpro]

Lets say a 100lc 2T could make 30hp reliably and a 110lc 2T could make 10% more or 33hp.

I think 30hp is a very usable amount and if all the scaremongering was on the money then currently, right now, bucket racing would be dominated by 100lc 2T buckets.

It isn't.

[kel]

Lets say a 100lc 2T could make 30hp reliably and a 110lc 2T could make 10% more or 33hp.

I think 30hp is a very usable amount and if all the scaremongering was on the money then currently, right now, bucket racing would be dominated by 100lc 2T buckets.

It isn't.

You are totally right, buckets is dominated by a Derbi 80. Why would anyone even think twice about going to 110cc.
Nothing to see here move along

[speedpro]

The last couple of "Auckland" meetings have been dominated by a 100cc aircooled 2T. The 80cc is lurking round. Neither bike is making astounding hp, certainly nothing like theoretically they could. Actually the meetings have been dominated by Dave and it hardly matters which bike he is on. The 80 is ridden by Nathaniel. Both riders are significant when it comes to getting round the track(s) quickly, bit like the hillbilly from Palmy on that 4T thingy. These 2Ts aren't that astounding. Blair, recently promoted from B-grade on his stockish FXR, was well on the pace.

Of course someone will build a real screamer 109cc watercooled bucket that blows the competition away with some scrawny teenage sensation riding it. This will of course prove all the doomsday experts correct. The same bike at 105cc would likely have a very similar effect but of course that doesn't prove anything.

I'm gonna sit back and watch nothing change except the cost of building an extra oversize MB100.

[TZ350]

I'm gonna sit back and watch nothing change except the cost of building an extra oversize MB100.

Athena MB110 $184.86 Euro

http://www.rrd-preparation.com/en/ki...duct-2222.html

Parmakit MB110

http://www.rrd-preparation.com/en/ki...r-cooling.html

Athena MBX110

http://www.rrd-preparation.com/en/ki...r-cooling.html

[F5 Dave]

What does it say on the side of that box?

[jasonu]

Risking asking a stupid question but is a 125cc water cooled 2 stroke with a no bigger than 24mm carb legal in F4 per the new rules?

[jasonu]

What does it say on the side of that box?

But there is no mention in the rules of passion having to be non competition based...

[richban]

110cc is all very well and good but remember its all about a maximum re bore on a 100cc cylinder, it is the maximum capacity you are allowed to re bore to, its not a licence to buy a 110cc after market water cooled cylinder.

My take on it is that its a re bore allowance not a new cylinder allowance. If you have 110cc and you did not get it by re-boring your old cylinder then under the current rules I think you would be illegal.

This rule then makes all 2 strokes with after market cylinders illegal then. Even going from a 50cc to and 80cc. As the cylinder was not rebored then hence illegal. Or does it? What happens when you make an engine from scratch from none competition parts that will never be rebored but is under 110cc. Contradiction in the rules. The rebore wording is silly. It should read engine cylinder capacity no larger than blah blah.

So I have already ordered my AM6 bottom end and 110 cylinder that will come in a plain brown cardboard box that does not say racing on the side. And my 32mm PWK that I will choke down to 24mm at some point. Not really! But you know. Engines will be build, they will blow up and some will keep going then someone will win the GP. Do I give a shit. Noooooooooo.

[husaberg]

This rule then makes all 2 strokes with after market cylinders illegal then. Even going from a 50cc to and 80cc. As the cylinder was not rebored then hence illegal. Or does it? What happens when you make an engine from scratch from none competition parts that will never be rebored but is under 110cc. Contradiction in the rules. The rebore wording is silly. It should read engine cylinder capacity no larger than blah blah.

So I have already ordered my AM6 bottom end and 110 cylinder that will come in a plain brown cardboard box that does not say racing on the side. And my 32mm PWK that I will choke down to 24mm at some point. Not really! But you know. Engines will be build, they will blow up and some will keep going then someone will win the GP. Do I give a shit. Noooooooooo.

Set up for Mike.............. set up for Mike..............

[richban]

Set up for Mike.............. set up for Mike..............

Well I do have a couple of spare NSR150 barrels. Or was it 105. Yeah thats right 105.

[husaberg]

Well I do have a couple of spare NSR150 barrels. Or was it 105. Yeah thats right 105.

I think I am dyslexic too so I see 42mm carbs are now allowed.

[Yow Ling]

Set up for Mike.............. set up for Mike..............

Sometimes it best to let it slide

[Bert]

Sometimes it best to let it slide

I thought it was a re bore allowance not a de stroke allowance.
But you have got me thinking now ..... .... your idea has got me seriously thinking about abandoning the 125cc RGV air cooled project and using the bits to make a water cooled NSR/GP110 with a plenum and fuel injection to get around the 24mm carb restriction.

If destroking a 125 to 110 is allowed under the new rules then I have a good 54mm NSR250 cylinder and with a de stroke of the GP crank by 2mm I could have a 109.9 cc engine with the same bore stroke ratio as the old Suzuki GP125.

A de stroke should be easy as we routinely replace the 19mm Suzuki big end pin with a 22mm Yamaha one. So offsetting it 1mm would not be too hard.

110cc = 54mm bore and 48mm stroke. (with same bore stroke ratio as the 125 Suzuki GP's 56x50)
110cc = 56mm bore and 44mm stroke

So the big question is, would an engine with a 125 cylinder that has been de stroked so its 110cc be legal??? thoughts please.

So I don't pollute the ESE thread...

Rob I'm not having a dig at you (or Scott): the rule is so bloody loose that you are both (in my reading) well within your rights to do just as you are proposing.

So my reading and discussion about this rule change was all about enabling those with engines on the last rebore enable more options. Rather than costly destroking.
So... Pandora's box has been opened.
Well it still amazes me why there was so much loopla about MX80s/85s (which there must be 1000s siting in shed doing nothing) yet the box was opened up for a few 30 year old engines or some very hard to get modern watercooled engines (ok I've got one of these..)...
And due to the writers/editors inability to write a clear and precise rule has opened the box for further interpretation to the point where bigger CC will be the only resulting endpoint.
This is no different to the 156/8 cc fourstroke. No one cares for rebores. They will just bore it out to the maximum (and resleeve when required)...


I believe that we won't see any significant advantage gained by the small increase. Costs aren't going to go down. And really it only helps a few (if the rule was past a decade ago) it might have been a really good compromise to the introduction of the 150cc... But now most of the old engines have been long since shoved under benches and/or forgone...

[husaberg]

So I don't pollute the ESE thread...

Rob I'm not having a dig at you (or Scott): the rule is so bloody loose that you are both (in my reading) well within your rights to do just as you are proposing.

So my reading and discussion about this rule change was all about enabling those with engines on the last rebore enable more options. Rather than costly destroking.
So... Pandora's box has been opened.
Well it still amazes me why there was so much loopla about MX80s/85s (which there must be 1000s siting in shed doing nothing) yet the box was opened up for a few 30 year old engines or some very hard to get modern watercooled engines (ok I've got one of these..)...
And due to the writers/editors inability to write a clear and precise rule has opened the box for further interpretation to the point where bigger CC will be the only resulting endpoint.
This is no different to the 156/8 cc fourstroke. No one cares for rebores. They will just bore it out to the maximum (and resleeve when required)...

The rules as they are currently on the site are a mess.
moved to here.

i thought it was a re bore allowance not a de stroke allowance.
But you have got me thinking now ..... .... Your idea has got me seriously thinking about abandoning the 125cc rgv air cooled project and using the bits to make a water cooled nsr/gp110 with the plenum and fuel injection setup for getting around the 24mm carb restriction.

If destroking a 125 to 110 is allowed under the new rules then i have a good 54mm nsr250 cylinder and with a de stroke of the gp crank by 2mm i could have a 109.9 cc engine with the same bore stroke ratio as the old suzuki gp125.

A de stroke should be easy as we routinely replace the 19mm suzuki big end pin with a 22mm yamaha one. So offsetting it 1mm would not be too hard.

110cc = 54mm bore and 48mm stroke. (with same bore stroke ratio as the 125 suzuki gp's 56x50)
110cc = 56mm bore and 44mm stroke

so the big question is, would an engine with a 125 cylinder that has been de stroked so its 110cc be legal??? Thoughts please.

yip....................
Just as debored 125 have been unquestionably legal for years Berts TZR, Nigels RG, Diesel pigs RG, Can't remember who had the other TZR in CHCH brendon?