Approximately half of all motorcycles in NZ are rego exempt or rego expired right now

[Ocean1]

AIf I borrow my neighbour's chainsaw....

That's a very contrived and convoluted analogy dude.

It's also wrong on several fronts.

Not least of which; the chainsaw isn't a sentient being. If it was, and had any valid claim to the distinction then it would insist on making it's own decisions about how it should behave.

So, now are we going to behave like sentient beings, or are we going to allow others to do that for us?

And assuming "responsibility" for me is very much dictating my behaviour.

So I'll continue to insist that my decisions are in fact mine, that I'm responsible for each and every one of them and that nobody else should have the right to dictate what they should be.

[Oakie]

That's a very contrived and convoluted analogy dude.

It's also wrong on several fronts.

Not least of which; the chainsaw isn't a sentient being. If it was, and had any valid claim to the distinction then it would insist on making it's own decisions about how it should behave.

So, now are we going to behave like sentient beings, or are we going to allow others to do that for us?

And assuming "responsibility" for me is very much dictating my behaviour.

So I'll continue to insist that my decisions are in fact mine, that I'm responsible for each and every one of them and that nobody else should have the right to dictate what they should be.

Yeah I know it's not an entirely appropriate example because it's an inanimate object but my point was around my ethical responsibility. It'll do it's work as designed but I as user (employer) need to take care of the things it can't control same as some things are outside of employees' control.

I think that in this context, it is entirely appriopriate for your employer to dictate your behaviour within what is seen as the behaviour required in that job. A tradesman can be told and be expected not to work off the top rung of a ladder in the same way as a receptionist can be told and expected not to swear at visitors to the office.

[old slider]

Yeah I know it's not an entirely appropriate example because it's an inanimate object but my point was around my ethical responsibility. It'll do it's work as designed but I as user (employer) need to take care of the things it can't control same as some things are outside of employees' control.

I think that in this context, it is entirely appriopriate for your employer to dictate your behaviour within what is seen as the behaviour required in that job. A tradesman can be told and be expected not to work off the top rung of a ladder in the same way as a receptionist can be told and expected not to swear at visitors to the office.

I imagine the worrying part for an employer is even after having the appropriate training in place, the employee signs papers each month at training sessions saying he has been trained in how to use a two step ladder, turn on the tap without spraining his wrist etc and still injures himself H & S could probably still fine the RRRs of you, even more risk is reprimanding the worker, written warnings etc, end up with dismissal and then face a 10k payout for unfair dismissal even if your found not guilty.

[Oakie]

I imagine the worrying part for an employer is even after having the appropriate training in place, the employee signs papers each month at training sessions saying he has been trained in how to use a two step ladder, turn on the tap without spraining his wrist etc and still injures himself H & S could probably still fine the RRRs of you, even more risk is reprimanding the worker, written warnings etc, end up with dismissal and then face a 10k payout for unfair dismissal even if your found not guilty.

Nah. I went to a presentation by a Labour Inspector and he said that if you can show you have taken all reasonable precautions and done your hazard check, you'll be OK. And he emphasised 'reasonable'. He also said that even though the people with the big fines get publicity and it seems a common event, he said that only 3% of notifications to the Labour Inspectors result in court action.

[Bass]

So I'll continue to insist that my decisions are in fact mine, that I'm responsible for each and every one of them and that nobody else should have the right to dictate what they should be.

I do hear you and I understand.
The law is sort of with you, at least in part. Basically it now says that the employee is ALSO responsible for his/her own safety. They can be prosecuted for e.g. deliberately defeating safety measures that they have signed off as being necessary and such cases are happening. However OSH still goes for the employer and their safety measures first.

I still maintain that it is important that the worker first understands the possible consequences of their decisions before they can be held accountable for them.

I guess I'm saying that in this case, ignorance IS an acceptable excuse.

Stalemate

[Voltaire]

I trained as an Electrician back in the early 80's.
I learned at lot about H and S the hard way.
Falling of ladders hurts.
If a drill had a sticky switch and jams when going into a wall breaking your wrist hurts.
Driving to hospital with a broken wrist also hurts.
Touching 230 volts hurts
Hitting your hand with a hammer hurts
When using a knife to strip cable cut away from yourself.
and so on....

What I have now is called Common Sense but to get that you need to learn by doing, falling out of trees, stubbing toes, crashing bicycles etc.

Did a course at work the other day, not a proper one, an on-line one done by some dreary Aussies with a a monotone voice.....20% of 'accidents' happen at work.
Must mean 80% don't so pretty stupid lot really.

[Ocean1]

I think that in this context, it is entirely appriopriate for your employer to dictate your behaviour within what is seen as the behaviour required in that job.

I still maintain that it is important that the worker first understands the possible consequences of their decisions before they can be held accountable for them.

It's been decades since any employer knew enough about what's required to do my job to have any chance whatsoever of contributing anything meaningful to a discussion on how I should carry out that job.

This is true of most specialist techies I know, the days of NZR and NZED where your boss knew more than you about your job, and his boss likewise are gone.

So not only is there an ethical reason to insist on managing your own behaviour, but there's increasingly a practical one, too: Nobody knows as much about your job as you do.

None of which is why I insist on managing my own safety, that's as I've explained above, but it's a good reason not to delegate responsibility to any "authority" simply because the rules say you should.

I trained as an Electrician back in the early 80's.
I learned at lot about H and S the hard way.
Falling of ladders hurts.
If a drill had a sticky switch and jams when going into a wall breaking your wrist hurts.
Driving to hospital with a broken wrist also hurts.
Touching 230 volts hurts
Hitting your hand with a hammer hurts
When using a knife to strip cable cut away from yourself.
and so on....

What I have now is called Common Sense but to get that you need to learn by doing, falling out of trees, stubbing toes, crashing bicycles etc.

Did a course at work the other day, not a proper one, an on-line one done by some dreary Aussies with a a monotone voice.....20% of 'accidents' happen at work.
Must mean 80% don't so pretty stupid lot really.

Aye, statistics say that home handyman stuff is bloody lethal. I suspect that's true even for those who do that stuff professionally, nothing's as straightforward as it is at work where everything is to hand and you've done it a hundred times this month.

Time will come when you'll not be allowed to change your own light bulbs, clean your gutters or mow your lawn.

[rastuscat]

It's all a big sucky fat thing.

[Bass]

It's been decades since any employer knew enough about what's required to do my job to have any chance whatsoever of contributing anything meaningful to a discussion on how I should carry out that job.

This is true of most specialist techies I know, the days of NZR and NZED where your boss knew more than you about your job, and his boss likewise are gone.

OK, I don't know what field you work in so I'm going to generalise a bit.

What you say may well be true, but you sound to me like well trained and experienced technician and so everything you say in relation to the way you do your job, should be true.

Tell me though, how many mistakes did you make on the way to getting there, that could easily have been fatal?

I suspect that I am in a similar situation to you, and everytime I look at a missing fingertip, it reminds me of what might have been.

(Yeah, yeah, I know - if it's missing, how can I look at it. You know what I mean.)

[Ocean1]

OK, I don't know what field you work in so I'm going to generalise a bit.

What you say may well be true, but you sound to me like well trained and experienced technician and so everything you say in relation to the way you do your job, should be true.

Tell me though, how many mistakes did you make on the way to getting there, that could easily have been fatal?

I suspect that I am in a similar situation to you, and everytime I look at a missing fingertip, it reminds me of what might have been.

(Yeah, yeah, I know - if it's missing, how can I look at it. You know what I mean.)

Plenty. I still do. And while others can learn from my mistakes and vice versa that's not relevant to:

a conviction that everyone is responsible for their own safety, that nobody has the right to expect someone else to take that responsibility from them. Part of that conviction is an awareness that in giving responsibility for any of your behavior to someone else you also risk giving them a lot more, and you risk becoming something for which others have little respect.

[Bass]

We have debated this one back and forth without much progress.

I don't have anything further to add, so it's probably time to stop.

[Swoop]

Talking about a new roof or even just getting it painted!!!!

The quotes are all pretty good, most around the $2500 mark to blast, rust treat, prime and top coat.

but the added Health and Safety requirements for scaffolding, roof edge protection etc is nearly twice the cost of doing the actual job?, luckily I can get family and friends to go up on the roof without the scaffolding costs, don't figure aye.

I'd double check the new regulations. I'm lead to believe that a homeowner can be screwed over if a "Worksafe" chap is driving by and notices you doing something that offends him.


Secondly, the scaffolding issue.
Exorbitant prices are being charged and lots of new companies getting onto the scaffolding bandwagon, to massively increase the costs of work being done.
A wise person can merely go down to Bunnings / Mitre10 and purchase a set of compliant scaffolding for less than what would be charged on your quote for the same thing. You then have an asset to keep or to sell and recover costs.


Finally, a club member mentioned a 4 min job that needed doing on a roof, that took 4 HOURS to rope-up and harness, prior to the 4min job.

[old slider]

I'd double check the new regulations. I'm lead to believe that a homeowner can be screwed over if a "Worksafe" chap is driving by and notices you doing something that offends him.


Secondly, the scaffolding issue.
Exorbitant prices are being charged and lots of new companies getting onto the scaffolding bandwagon, to massively increase the costs of work being done.
A wise person can merely go down to Bunnings / Mitre10 and purchase a set of compliant scaffolding for less than what would be charged on your quote for the same thing. You then have an asset to keep or to sell and recover costs.


Finally, a club member mentioned a 4 min job that needed doing on a roof, that took 4 HOURS to rope-up and harness, prior to the 4min job.

Thanks for that swoop, I was not aware a home owner could be possibly prosecuted for being less safety conscious while doing home maintenance than say a business.

Do you know if we need to have scaffolding certificate etc or can anyone chuck it up? in case something goes wrong and they try and blame the scaffolding installation process.

[RDJ]

It is unfortunate, but many 'accidents' (whether you are the promulgater or the victim) are a result of evolution in action.

[Oakie]

I'd double check the new regulations. I'm lead to believe that a homeowner can be screwed over if a "Worksafe" chap is driving by and notices you doing something that offends him.

Nah. You can do what you like at home as a householder. It's not a workplace. From the Act:

20 Meaning of workplace

(1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, a workplace—
(a) means a place where work is being carried out, or is customarily carried out, for a business or undertaking; and
(b) includes any place where a worker goes, or is likely to be, while at work.

(2) In this section, place includes—
(a) a vehicle, vessel, aircraft, ship, or other mobile structure; and
(b) any waters and any installation on land, on the bed of any waters, or floating on any waters.