Wire (cheese cutter) barriers

**cooneyr** · 22nd October 2007, 22:41

Originally Posted by avgas

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correct me if im wrong - but what would make it any worse than any other road in NZ if we ripped the succkers out?
20 ton Hitachi digger could do it easy. But you would have to do it in sections, 1 section a night.
Removing the worst sections first.
I know talk is cheap on the internet - but just to bounce an idea out there.

Think of the difference between a head on crash and a nose to tail crash. Much better to have a nose to tail than a head on due to the speed differential of the colliding vehicles. Head on crash speed differential can be 200 + kph where as nose to tail crash speed differential will be more likely in the range < 80kph.

It is all to do with the type of crash rather than the number of crashes and it only becomes an issue when the traffic volumes reach certain point. The probability of having a head on crash is small if there is only one other vehicle on the same 1 kms section of road as you.

I absolutely agree with comments regarding making the barriers safer for all users - this should be one of the main thrusts for any campaign. Offering an alternative is going to get much better traction that simply advocating banning and removal. Lastly the comments about politicians being short term and vote orientated vs govt dept staff being in it for the long haul are very correct. This is not to say that getting a polly onboard would not be worth while but their support may be lost during or post election.

Cheers R

**Ian.S** · 22nd October 2007, 22:44

Been on the Sunshine Coast for about 2 months now, they are installing both Cheese Cutter and Armco over here.

**ManDownUnder** · 22nd October 2007, 23:03

In terms of a campaign - think the messaging is actually pretty simple.

We're on side with LTNZ - we want road safety too.

Monash Uni's research predicted the unfortunate outcome of the recent accident. While speed appears to have been a factor the question is actually one of outcomes.

What would have most likely happened if a concrete median barrier was in place?

Or to rephrase - what's the best solution. We have theroetical proof backed up by a real life incident that cheese cutters aren't. So how do we fix it. What is the better solution

====
If speed's the only issue then we should be able to hit the wire barriers at 100kph and suffer no more injury than we would if we hit another type of barrier/deflection device.

I don't believe this to be the case

Our focus needs to be on road safety. We're actually on the same team as LTNZ on that point - the exception being we don't have money to lose... it's our lives and loved ones.

**FJRider** · 22nd October 2007, 23:37

If you hit anything at 100kmh on / in anything, pain is usually involved. Barriers can be installed to stop,or slow down anything hitting them.Depending on circumstance or location,it can be difficult to say which one is better.What may stop a bike,may not stop a car.If speed is found to be a/the problem,lower speed limits could be applied. Cheaper than re-designing the road or replacing barriers.Be careful what you ask for. Motorcycling is dangerous,thats why we pay higher acc levies than car owners. Good insurance for bike and body, is a must nowdays. Well at least highly reccomended. RIDE SAFE,and if you know you're NOT...whoose fault if...

**EnzoYug** · 22nd October 2007, 23:43

"The biomecanical tolerance of deceleration for a chest impact is 600-800m/s2. This figure was exceeded with the unprotected post (860m/s2), but with the protected post, deceleration was only 472m/s2.
This shows that the polystyrene protector can turn a fatal accident into a accident causing only slight injuries."

Wrap the wires in plastic. It's the only way - getting rid of them isn't an economically or safety viable solution. Instead get those wires wrapped in plastic and have them replaced with recycled sleepyhead inner-sprung mattresses at a later date - as tax allows.

If anyone here has links to PR or TV now would be the time to drop a 'ready-to-eat' story in a producers lap. "Motorcyclists murdered by design..." - give them a few links, a bit of research, someone to interview and few stills of wrecked bikes - they'd be all over it. Turn the moral/social panic machine to our own ends for a bit.

My 2c

**FJRider** · 22nd October 2007, 23:56

The only ones that give a toss about motorcyclists ARE motorcyclists. Civil disobedience will give us a bad boy/girl image. HEY... Dont we have that now

**Sanx** · 23rd October 2007, 00:27

The core safety issue behind the cheesecutter barriers is not the cables as such, but the deformable steel legs holding them up. They trap limbs and act as cutting edges.

In terms of simple solutions (#8 fencing wire type solutions), what needs to be achieved is to prevent a motorcyclist from impacting the support legs. Something as simple as a couple of sheets of flooring chipboard bolted either side of the barrier would have that effect. OK, it'd disintegrate when it rained, but I'm sure marine ply or something similar could be used to overcome that problem.

What's really needed though is a substance that provides some element of impact absorbtion whilst presenting a flat-ish surface that cars, bikes, and their riders can slide down. As in the crude drawing attached, make a long plastic container that would slot neatly over the existing barriers. Make it cover three legs at a time to provide some stability. Obviously, this would need a method of fixing it down. Easy - fill it with water. By leaving an air gap at the top of the tub and partially sealing it, there's some impact protection. The plastic deforms forcing the water up compressing the air gap. Should it be hit hard enough, then the plastic will split ... but the mere act of suddenly forcing all the water out will absorb some energy. You'd end up with all of the benefits of the wire-rope barriers, but with added impact absorbtion. In addition, with no legs to get caught up in, the danger to motorcyclists would be greatly reduced.

Mainentance would be easy. Remove a plug out of the bottom, drain the water out and two grown men could probably lift the cover off manually. Easy to replace. No fixings or tie-downs would be necessary - once filled, the system would be self-supporting.

Now for some field research. I've just gone down to Douglas Bader Drive in Manukau (the approach road to the airport) where two stretches of cheese-cutters were installed some time late last year. The barriers are 153cm from the edge of the road. The support legs are 75cm high and are installed at 150cm intervals. Each leg has an 'S' shaped cross section, with the 'points' of the 'S' facing away from the oncoming traffic. The legs are 10cm wide, 2cm thick and constructed from 5mm thick metal (presumably steel). The top-most cable is 67cm from the ground. From a highly scientific survey of one truck, the bottom of the front bumper was 46 cm from the ground. This bumper was fixed at the top only (admittedly, by massive fixings) - around 80cm from the ground.

Photos of the barriers and measurements can be found here:
http://www.aqua.co.nz/cheesecutter/

**JMemonic** · 23rd October 2007, 07:06

Originally Posted by Sanx

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The core safety issue behind the cheesecutter barriers is not the cables as such, but the deformable steel legs holding them up. They trap limbs and act as cutting edges.

Yeap I agree as I am sure most do.

Originally Posted by Sanx

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What's really needed though is a substance that provides some element of impact absorbtion whilst presenting a flat-ish surface that cars, bikes, and their riders can slide down. As in the crude drawing attached, make a long plastic container that would slot neatly over the existing barriers. Make it cover three legs at a time to provide some stability. Obviously, this would need a method of fixing it down. Easy - fill it with water. By leaving an air gap at the top of the tub and partially sealing it, there's some impact protection. The plastic deforms forcing the water up compressing the air gap. Should it be hit hard enough, then the plastic will split ... but the mere act of suddenly forcing all the water out will absorb some energy. You'd end up with all of the benefits of the wire-rope barriers, but with added impact absorbtion. In addition, with no legs to get caught up in, the danger to motorcyclists would be greatly reduced.

Mainentance would be easy. Remove a plug out of the bottom, drain the water out and two grown men could probably lift the cover off manually. Easy to replace. No fixings or tie-downs would be necessary - once filled, the system would be self-supporting.

Your principal is similar to what I suggest but there are a couple of problems I can see, firstly to install the guard you propose would the wire not need to be removed, the covers installed then the wire replaced, this would add to the instillation and maintenance costs, should for some reason a cover in amongst say 50 of the barriers become damaged one would have to deal with the wires for all 50 then retension the whole assembly. Secondly water is a great idea but it has a couple of problems, if you are relying in the water for impact absorption and it leaks or evaporates then you have lost a good percentage of your designed safety, plus it will stagnate and become a vector for potentially harmful insects, this will make MAF a tad unhappy.

I think we are along the right track in thinking of solutions, especially if they can be made in NZ, I seem to recollect that the manufacture of these barriers won a design award from the Govt, although how I don't know as this system has been in use overseas for years.

**Riff Raff** · 23rd October 2007, 07:20

Just heard on the news that a truck has gone through the barrier at Papakura into oncoming traffic going the other way, causing carnage. So they're not safe for trucks and not safe for motorcyclists. Hello?

**sAsLEX** · 23rd October 2007, 07:23

Originally Posted by JMemonic

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Yeap I agree as I am sure most do.

Your principal is similar to what I suggest but there are a couple of problems I can see, firstly to install the guard you propose would the wire not need to be removed, the covers installed then the wire replaced, this would add to the instillation and maintenance costs, should for some reason a cover in amongst say 50 of the barriers become damaged one would have to deal with the wires for all 50 then retension the whole assembly. Secondly water is a great idea but it has a couple of problems, if you are relying in the water for impact absorption and it leaks or evaporates then you have lost a good percentage of your designed safety, plus it will stagnate and become a vector for potentially harmful insects, this will make MAF a tad unhappy.

I think we are along the right track in thinking of solutions, especially if they can be made in NZ, I seem to recollect that the manufacture of these barriers won a design award from the Govt, although how I don't know as this system has been in use overseas for years.

I think you misread his solution.

It would be a U upside down shaped section that fitted over the entire wire-rope and waratah system ( or an n shaped section I guess?). Like sticking a bucket over a watermelon..... terrible analogy but!?

So all that would be required is the plastic section being placed over the wire and then filling with water, simple and effective.

**HDTboy** · 23rd October 2007, 07:41

I've just sent the following email to Michael Laws of Radio Live

Good Morning Michael,

I'm writing to you this morning, to bring to your attention the death of a 21 year old motorcyclist in the early hours of Saturday morning. While it is early days yet, and the SCU report is not out. It appears that his death was in a large part due to his body being cut to pieces by the wire rope median barriers which have been so favoured by our roading authority for the last ten to fifteen years.

I've never written to you, or rang your show before, but I do enjoy listening to it. Your views align woth mine on a lot of subjects. I would like you to consider covering the topic of the legality of these barriers and their installation along an increasing number of New Zealand's roading network. I believe they are banned in some European countries, and installed correctly in others. A group of concerned motorcyclists have done a lot of searching for information on the subject, and compiled it http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=59344 there. The notification of said crash can be found http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=59302 there.

While us motorcyclists recognise that we are a minority, and that we do take our lives into our own hands, we also hate seeing our own government being indifferent with our lives. I enjoy living, motorcycling is a part of my life, but I have a lot more to live for.

Your consideration of covering Dan's death would be much appreciated.
Gavin Brindle
HDTboy on the Kiwibiker forums

**sels1** · 23rd October 2007, 07:58

Some how refering to these things as 'cheese cutters 'sounds a little innocuous. Perhaps calling them what they are - body slicers - may help get our message across.

**limbimtimwim** · 23rd October 2007, 08:01

Foreword
The intent of this Standard is to provide a framework that unites the many parties
involved in the provision of road safety barrier systems and crash attenuators, so that the
completed installations provide acceptable performance to the community of road users
over the length of time the barrier systems are expected to operate.
The function of these devices is to improve road safety by reducing the consequences of
crashes. However, it should be recognized that these devices are themselves a hazard; they
have the potential to cause serious injuries. The intention of this Standard is that these
devices are only installed at locations where the risk with the device installed is
significantly less than the risk without the device.

The duty of care to be exercised is emphasized. The community of road users includes
people in a variety of vehicles which vary in size, mass and methods of propulsion. What
should be noted is that the users of these vehicles have different levels of protection,
especially pedal cyclists and motorcyclists. The community of road users also includes
pedestrians and those involved in the various construction, operational and maintenance
activities that occur within the road reserve. At some sites, the community of road users
should be extended to include those whose activities require them to abut the road
reserve.

Italics added by me. You could read this as nearly any cheese cutter installation doesn't comply with the intent of the standard.

I am trying to obtain copy this standard, however it is expensive. I might be able to borrow it.

**ceebie13** · 23rd October 2007, 08:02

Originally Posted by Sanx

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I've just gone down to Douglas Bader Drive in Manukau (the approach road to the airport) where two stretches of cheese-cutters were installed some time late last year.

Douglas Bader Drive?...Cheesecutter wires?...Now there's an irony considering Douglas Bader's physical condition for the most part of his life.