Cheesecutter campaign

**Katman:Me** · 29th January 2009, 18:13

Originally Posted by MSTRS

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At last, a response. For what it's worth...Steve/Katman - is that you?
I'm working on a reply. Watch this space

And that's exactly the response that you should have expected.

Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

**yungatart** · 30th January 2009, 07:22

Originally Posted by Katman

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And that's exactly the response that you should have expected.

Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

And yours does???

Thanks for your advice Hitcher....I shall be sending my own letter to our friend Steven soon....

**Hitcher** · 30th January 2009, 08:19

Originally Posted by Katman

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Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

**MSTRS:Me** · 30th January 2009, 08:30

Originally Posted by Katman

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Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

Go back to your dictionary and see if you can work out what condescending really means.
Is that condescending enough for you?

**MSTRS:Me** · 30th January 2009, 09:51

Having done some more research, particularly into claims made in Steven Joyce's response, I have now sent him this...
Steven Joyce
Minister of Transport

Dear Steven

Thank you for your response to my email, regarding concerns over cheesecutter barriers. You make some valid points re speed, alcohol etc, however that is another issue, and not one that necessarily pertains to barrier strikes.

Your advice that no country has removed barriers is erroneous.
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...w-1138376.html
In this report you will notice that the Netherlands are doing just that. Plus mention of other EU countries that are no longer installing them, if not replacing as time passes
http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barrie...tingthere.html
http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barrie...riersnmcu.html

Your advice that no motorcycle deaths have occurred in conjunction with WRB in Sweden is also erroneous.
http://epubl.luth.se/1402-1617/2005/...X-05233-SE.pdf
On pages 65 and 66 you will find that WRB featured as the cause of death or severe injury as a result of impact.

My statement that these barriers ‘have a well-deserved reputation as killers of motorcyclists’ really requires no formal proof. I was unable to separate the pertinent section, but if you scroll to the entry for July 31, 2008… .
http://www.bikenut.com.au/blog.php
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIA...ews/41596.html
http://www.bikesonshow.com/viewtopic.php?t=616
I will agree it is likely that some of these deaths were due to inappropriate speed, as so many are regardless of what is impacted. However, the death in Auckland has not been attributed to speed and we are still awaiting the reason from the SCU or Coroner. Frame failure (of the welds holding the steering head to the main frame) of the bike model involved is a well known problem around the world, and is quite likely the reason here, due to the way the bike ended up in 2 pieces.

To expect all WRB to be removed/replaced may be a pipe dream, but it is not too much to expect that motorcyclists’ needs will be the guiding factor in selecting a suitable barrier for the safety of all.
http://www.acem.eu/NWSL/newsl17/eurorap.htm

And finally, I note that you make no response to the fact that large or heavy vehicles are not contained?
Failure of a containment system is surely as serious as deaths caused by it?

Regards

**Morepower** · 17th April 2009, 21:40

Originally Posted by MSTRS

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Having done some more research, particularly into claims made in Steven Joyce's response, I have now sent him this...
Steven Joyce
Minister of Transport

Dear Steven

Thank you for your response to my email, regarding concerns over cheesecutter barriers. You make some valid points re speed, alcohol etc, however that is another issue, and not one that necessarily pertains to barrier strikes.

Your advice that no country has removed barriers is erroneous.
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...w-1138376.html
In this report you will notice that the Netherlands are doing just that. Plus mention of other EU countries that are no longer installing them, if not replacing as time passes
http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barrie...tingthere.html
http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barrie...riersnmcu.html

Your advice that no motorcycle deaths have occurred in conjunction with WRB in Sweden is also erroneous.
http://epubl.luth.se/1402-1617/2005/...X-05233-SE.pdf
On pages 65 and 66 you will find that WRB featured as the cause of death or severe injury as a result of impact.

My statement that these barriers ‘have a well-deserved reputation as killers of motorcyclists’ really requires no formal proof. I was unable to separate the pertinent section, but if you scroll to the entry for July 31, 2008… .
http://www.bikenut.com.au/blog.php
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIA...ews/41596.html
http://www.bikesonshow.com/viewtopic.php?t=616
I will agree it is likely that some of these deaths were due to inappropriate speed, as so many are regardless of what is impacted. However, the death in Auckland has not been attributed to speed and we are still awaiting the reason from the SCU or Coroner. Frame failure (of the welds holding the steering head to the main frame) of the bike model involved is a well known problem around the world, and is quite likely the reason here, due to the way the bike ended up in 2 pieces.

To expect all WRB to be removed/replaced may be a pipe dream, but it is not too much to expect that motorcyclists’ needs will be the guiding factor in selecting a suitable barrier for the safety of all.
http://www.acem.eu/NWSL/newsl17/eurorap.htm

And finally, I note that you make no response to the fact that large or heavy vehicles are not contained?
Failure of a containment system is surely as serious as deaths caused by it?

Regards

Interesting. Reading between the lines in Mr Joyce's reply it would seem that if an accident is attributable to say speeding or alcohol ,for example, then the fact that a barrier may have been a contributing factor to severe injury or death is irrelevant in the eyes of the statisticians.
They are playing a numbers game. Their reasoning is that they can save X numbers of deaths / injuries amongst the overall road using population for Y $ However this $ saving is at the expense of knowingly increasing chances of death/ injury to some minority road users ( i.e motorcyclists ) .
Bloody sickening but I am sure thats the truth of it.

**MSTRS:Me** · 18th April 2009, 07:53

Originally Posted by Morepower

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....$ saving is at the expense of knowingly increasing chances of death/ injury to some minority road users ( i.e motorcyclists ) .
Bloody sickening but I am sure thats the truth of it.

Correct.
As regards my responding email (as you quoted), no reply was forthcoming. I have send a 'reminder'...

I note that no response was issued after the referred email, which dealt with the subject of Wire Rope Barriers, with links to a wealth of information and statistics on their unsuitability for motorcyclists' safety. It is my understanding that Transit (NZTA) have just turned down a proposed retrofittable safety cover for WRB as well as a bottom rail for the posts in the Armco system. They cite costs in the WRB case, and no deaths to Armco post strikes (which is a lie...the latest I am aware of was on SH5 22/2/09 and I was there). With talk of more WRB to be installed north of Paraparaumu, I wonder how many deaths will force a rethink on barrier safety as it pertains to the vulnerable.

**steve_t** · 21st May 2009, 14:56

Being relatively new to bikes and living in Hamiltron, I thought I'd bump this thread and see if there was any further progress or any upcoming events to support the replacement of these.
I went to www.cheesecutter.co.nz and signed up to the petition.
What else?

**MSTRS:Me** · 21st May 2009, 16:02

Nothing coming up in the short term, but keep an eye out. You can also 'have a word' with your local MPs. They love statistics (when they are quoting them) but you can find lots of relevant info here

**oldrider** · 24th May 2009, 08:16

There has been no abatement in the erection of cheesecutter barriers in the South Island! (as far as I can see)

They are flat out putting them up, down here on highway 83, between Otematata and Aviemore power station!

There are none so deaf as those who "will not listen"! (LTSA)

**NighthawkNZ:Me** · 24th May 2009, 08:52

Originally Posted by Morepower

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Interesting. Reading between the lines in Mr Joyce's reply it would seem that if an accident is attributable to say speeding or alcohol ,for example, then the fact that a barrier may have been a contributing factor to severe injury or death is irrelevant in the eyes of the statisticians.

ahhh the power of statistics... make em say anything you want with the same data input as every one else... and you are quite correct and that won't change either.

**steve_t** · 24th May 2009, 18:25

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that."

**yungatart** · 25th May 2009, 06:48

Did anyone see the lycra clad treadlies and pedestrians on the harbour bridge yesterday...wouldn't it be great if we could get a huge protest ride like that up and running!

**Mom** · 25th May 2009, 06:59

Originally Posted by yungatart

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Did anyone see the lycra clad treadlies and pedestrians on the harbour bridge yesterday...wouldn't it be great if we could get a huge protest ride like that up and running!

Funny you should say that, I made the same comment yesterday when I saw the number of people out there. The police would not take kindly to it I am sure, but enough people taking part and they would actually be powerless to do anything about it. They can not arrest hundreds of people at a time. Not so sure the Harbour Bridge is the right place to do something like that though. Auckland is a big city with huge numbers of vehicles on the roads. Pick any main arterial route and you could create chaos.