ESE's works engine tuner

[WilDun]

with the PatTwo design.
It is not about a small improvement, it is more about a breakthrough. Everything changes.

I understand it is “too unconventional” and spoils the way some member of this forum use to think. However they can simply omit / ignore such posts and proceed to the next ones.
On the other hand, everything used today for “"real world" Bucket Race engine experiences” (as you set it), was yesterday nothing more than a "promising" project.
Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Sorry everybody, but this is why I reacted - it appeared to belittle the efforts of some guys, - but I shouldn't carry things on, so continue and I'll go and fiddle in my workshop and muddle through!

[manolis]

Hello TZ350

You write:
“but are the projects shown on that site your own work?”

No. It is not my own work.
It is a team work.
The team is made of a few engineers.
Everything shown in the pattakon web site have been made by the pattakon team (from inventing, to patenting, to making prototypes, to testing, to presenting in the web, to exhibiting and so on).


Each pattakon project is presented separately (in its own web page), with the patents granted so far (at top right).


For instance, take the 2-stroke OPRE opposed piston engine:



It is a 2-stroke Diesel.
Only the piston rings (they are from a Mazda 323F 1600cc), the plain bearing at the big end of each connecting rod (they are from a Yanmar) and the injection system (it comes from a cheap Chinese 4-stroke gen-set) are from the market.
The rest parts were made by hand (at “home”). Only the final grinding of the crankshafts and of the cylinder liner were made externally.



The important thing here is the different architecture of the OPRE 2-stroke engine (pull-rod engine): in comparison to a conventional engine, it provides some 30 to 35% longer piston dwell at the “combustion dead center”. Think what this means for a Diesel.



Or take the PatOP 2-stroke (the single crankshaft version of the OPRE):



Again the only things coming from the market are the piston rings (for a VW 1.9Tdi), the plain bearings (from a BMW 1,600cc) and the injection system (from a cheap Chinese 4-stroke gen-set). Everything else is “billet” made. We started with an aluminum cylinder (7000 series) of 56Kg (125lb) and we finished with a casing weighing about 10Kg (22lb).





The “scavenge pump” bore is 130mm (for 64mm stroke), giving 850cc scavenging pump capacity for a 636cc total displacement of this PatOP engine (1.33 scavenge ratio). If you are confused, the PatOP is not a “crankcase scavenged” 2-stroke.

It took about a month on a CNC mill machine and on a CNC lath (the normal work of the machine shop was the first priority, we were making the PatOP in the “breaks” of the normal work; most of the time was consumed in programming than in cutting).
The machine shop owner could not believe the connecting rods could really be assembled on the crankshaft:



I had to make a demonstration for him.



Take the PatATi 2-stroke:



The casing (the cylinder tube with the cylindrical crankcases at its ends) was made with a conventional TOS lath and with an conventional (non CNC) milling machine in a machine shop. The rest parts (which are the really interesting parts because they offer substantially different breathing than the known 2-stroke: asymmetrical transfer and asymmetrical intake without additional parts) were made at “home”.
It is a single cylinder 800cc 2-stroke engine. See how nicely it works without exhaust.

Here is a model PatATi engine:



and here is its timing:



The exhaust closes before the transfer! Think about it.
And the intake (using only the piston, the cylinder and the connecting rod) is way asymmetrical (without reed or rotary valves).



There are several other pattakon projects.
Some of them about 2-strokes.
We try to make at least a “proof of concept” prototype for each one of them.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[Peter1962]

Manolis, even if this specific thread is about 2 strokes, I think that your modification of the honda Vtec is a marvel. Consider for example what this could do on a modern 250 or 450 SX engine.

But for your 2 stroke design : couldn't you guys modify an existing 250 SX engine, as proof of concept ? And to be able to make a comparison of your system with an engine that is for the rest identical ?

[wobbly]

As I said before and I repeat it, this thread is about home based modifications to existing "old school " 2T technology.
Some are interested in Karting, some in MX, some in Buckets, even offshore race-boats - all sports where modifications to existing hardware is part of the enjoyment.
If I was interested in learning about or critiquing a new design I would visit a forum where this is the intent of the membership - that isnt the case here at all.
Again, there are plenty of people out there that have little idea about where a normal 2T ports should be for a particular end use, so show and tell on here helps
everyone.
Starting at complete newbies, and even our esteemed friend Frits would have seen a couple of gems.

[FastFred]

Hello TZ350

You write:
“but are the projects shown on that site your own work?”

No. It is not my own work. It is a team work. The team is made of a few engineers.
Everything shown in the pattakon web site have been made by the pattakon team (from inventing, to patenting, to making prototypes, to testing, to presenting in the web, to exhibiting and so on).

The machine shop owner could not believe the connecting rods could really be assembled on the crankshaft:



I had to make a demonstration for him.

We try to make at least a “proof of concept” prototype for each one of them.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

Hi Manolis, I would love to know more, possibly some unpublished insights and pictures that have not been posted already on the Pattacon website.



Something I scraped from Pattacon, anyone can do it. Its the behind the scenes, original unpublished work that interests me.

[manolis]

Hello Peter1962

You write:
“I think that your modification of the honda Vtec is a marvel.”


The rod-version-VVA used in the Renault 19 (at left in the photo, more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonRod.htm ) proved in practice too good and reliable, the roller-version-VVA (the system in the Honda Civic in the youtube video, at right in the photo) is even better:



However,
the pattakon DVVA (Desmodromic Variable Valve Actuation) is by far better:
It is the combination and evolution of both (rod-VVA and roller-VVA).

For the Honda roller-VVA we had to pay 460Euros for a set of Toda, egg-shape, valve springs (they allow 12+mm valve lift (not possible with the original Honda B16A2 valve springs) and 9,000+rpm).

The DVVA (more at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonDesmo.htm ) :



needs not restoring valve springs and is for way-higher-revs (provided the underneath mechanism (pistons, con-rods, crankshaft, block) can withstand the “punishment”).

It is also “more variable” than the roller-VVA and the rod-VVA: the valve duration not only varies continuously from zero to a maximum, but it also varies independently from the valve lift (and vice-versa).
Here they are shown some possible valve lift profiles:



The DVVA is a pure mechanical Desmodromic Variable Valve Actuation system for poppet valve engines; more desmodromic than Ducati’s Desmo (which is non-variable) and way more variable than BMW's valvetronic, Toyota's valvematic, Nissan's VVEL, etc.




Hello FastFred.

You write:
“I would love to know more, possibly some unpublished insights and pictures that have not been posted already on the Pattacon website.”

Look at the above, poor quality, DVVA demonstration prototype.

It was made by hand (only the two race-ways were cut in a CNC mill machine) a few days before the Engine Expo of 2008 (Stuttgart Germany).

Here it is secured at the top of a pile, having a “crank” on the one “camshaft” (which is actually a “crankshaft”) and two levers for the control of the intake valves (the one for the valve duration, the other for the valve lift) and another two levers for the control of the exhaust valves.



What the label doesn’t write is that everything varies “on the fly”.

For instance, in a motoGP the rider of a DVVA engine, during the race and depending on the instant conditions, can play with the valve duration and the valve lift to find the ideal tuning of his engine (for instance: more torquie at raining and corners, more powerful at straight lines, operation beyond the limit at crucial points (overtake just before the finish line) etc. He can choose, any moment, the ideal tuning (like replacing the “camshafts” by other ones from an infinity of available camshafts, from too mild to too wild)


Here is an unpublished story:

After the presentation of the pattakon VVA’s in the Open Technology Forum of the Engine Expo (third day, last presentation) a guy (German, nearly 70 year old) followed us in the pattakon booth.
As he told us, he was an ex-world -champion in motorcycle racing (the older version of the modern moto-GP), he was also the manufacturer of his racing engines. He showed us photos of his last racing engine (three cylinders) and was more than proud for the improvements / inventions he had made.
He asked for our permission and started playing with the DVVA prototype.
He was turning the “crank” by one hand and was displacing the lift lever and the duration lever by his other hand, looking from below and through the ports the valves opening and closing.
He kept playing and playing with the DVVA prototype for several minutes.
You can’t imagine how happy he was (like a child playing for the first time with a toy), and how sad he was at the same time repeating “I am the one who should invent this…”
As he told me latter, he tried for decades to achieve a variable desmodromic system, unsuccessfully.


Beside the DVVA prototype, we had in the pattakon booth the modified cylinder head of the Honda Civic (roller-VVA).
A Japanese engineer of Honda, wearing an expensive black suit, asked for details and then he started examining the cylinder head, touching it, shifting it, looking for all the details.
When I told him that his suit would get “oiled”, he said “let it be oiled” and continued his “search” more furiously.


No running prototype of the DVVA has been made so far.


However recently it was invented the PatRoVa rotary valve which, among others, is capable for way higher revs than the DVVA and is way simpler and cheaper to be made.


Searching in the web for rotary valves, the best article I found is the article of “yours” Ralph Watson at http://ralphwatson.scienceontheweb.net/rotary.html .

Do read it.

Here Ralph Watson is driving his BSA sport car on New Zealand’s roads having replaced the original cylinder heads of the original V-2 engine by his own “Cross type” rotary valves.






Due to the several negative / non-technical replies - complaints (according which I am spoiling your discussion), please do not respond any longer.

If anybody wants to communicate with me, the contact details are at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonContact.htm

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[Martin1981]

Manolis,

this is the wrong Place for you. This Thread has nothing to do with Advertising or Marketing or call it like you want.

regarding your "revolutionary" Engine, you made the same Mistake as Ryger. You did the second step before the first.

1 Step: PROVE that you HAVE a revolutionary Engine that INDEED blows any conventional Engine apart.
2 Step: Open your Mouth, and CLAIM that you have a revolutionary Engine that blows any conventional Engine apart.

As Wobbly said, this Thread and his Readers and Writers is/are sick of Claims and Promises after the Ryger Duck. We dont want to mess around with shit like this again.

[breezy]

so much info, my head is gonna explode....although, i have just got home from the pub...

[F5 Dave]

Hmm, no Ithink ttomorrow is more of a concern

[WilDun]

Was driving past the Mt Wellington kart track today (Saturday), saw that there was something on, so I called in to have a look, ( that was a rare thing for me) so didn't really recognise anyone, but I noticed they were all a lot younger than me!.
I was surprised to find that it seemed to be Suzuki 150 (four stroke) day! There were maybe a couple of two strokes - this was a surprise to me, but then someone told me that a lot more two strokes would be there on Sunday, so maybe I need to nip down there tomorrow and see the boys doing their stuff on the fast two strokes!

I can tolerate four strokes if they use Castrol 'R' of course, but no such luck! You young guys have missed out on a major part of life!

[husaberg]

then someone told me that a lot more two strokes would be there on Sunday, so maybe I need to nip down there tomorrow :

[WilDun]

Gawd, not more animations! - don't tell me youse guys down there are still watching Basil Brush!

[husaberg]

Gawd, not more animations! - don't tell me youse guys down there are still watching Basil Brush!

I haven't seen it since I was a wee nipper...

[G Jones]

Please let's get back to 2 stroke stuff ? - I personally don't want to see anything relating to Foul Strokes - on this thread - or anywhere else for that matter - I have absolutely no interest - no matter how technically brilliant or ground breaking - they only fire half as often as they should - no use to me - rant over...

do you know about how far the ducting should protrude in front of the radiator to be affective ? 4" seems like it would do the job but I don't know.

I made a ducting system for the chassis I built - TZ350 engine - first time out last year in Belgium - 90 degree air temperature - max temp reached was 55 degrees - far better than the previous setup - but still room for improvement...


And the inlet with the Fairing fitted.

[WilDun]

So is the "Suter' technology much the same as and based on where Honda left off (ie when they managed to manipulate everybody against two strokes), or is it supposed to be a vast improvement on that? - and where is it now anyway (Suter)?
The Suter (to me) seemed to be the last great hope for two strokes, at least in motorcycles! but I hope I was wrong
Thank God for Karts, Snowmobiles, outboards and of course KTM and Bombardier, but even they seem to be wavering - at least KTM.
it'll soon be down to Buckets to hold the fort!!

Wobbly & Co.
Did you guys benefit much from freeing up of the racing secrets of the now abandoned two stroke era - yes I realize that most of your fine tuning successes were down to sheer hard work!