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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #22801
    Join Date
    18th May 2007 - 20:23
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    RG50 and 76 Suzuki GP125 Buckets
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    Auckland
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    10,473
    Spent an interesting evening talking with a guy who's name and number was given to me. He had built a turbocharged, alcohol burning fuel injected quad. Big hp and rideable, he suggested the issues with my bike must be somewhere in the sub maps that handle acceleration/deceleration and quite very possibly where the injector was positioned. It was an encouraging talk.

    Also I never knew before how much power was really possible with a turbo 2T and alcohol, truly frightening. When I get the EFI thing sorted I will have to have a go at the turbo thing too .....

    So locally (in NZ) that I know of, there is a EFI YZ250 on petrol, and an air cooled Kawasaki BigHorn on E90 and the Turbo Quad on Alcohol. These all ran Ok, very rideable and throttled well, so there is hope for mine yet.

  2. #22802
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    2nd July 2013 - 11:52
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    GPR150
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    palmertson north
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Spent an interesting evening talking with a guy who's name and number was given to me. He had built a turbocharged, alcohol burning fuel injected quad. Big hp and rideable, he suggested the issues with my bike must be somewhere in the sub maps that handle acceleration/deceleration and quite very possibly where the injector was positioned. It was an encouraging talk.

    Also I never knew before how much power was really possible with a turbo 2T and alcohol, truly frightening. When I get the EFI thing sorted I will have to have a go at the turbo thing too .....

    So locally (in NZ) that I know of, there is a EFI YZ250 on petrol, and an air cooled Kawasaki BigHorn on E90 and the Turbo Quad on Alcohol. These all ran Ok, very rideable and throttled well, so there is hope for mine yet.
    hope the talk gets the project moveing the right way
    i'm over buckets

  3. #22803
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    22nd November 2013 - 16:32
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    STRIKE trike & KTM300 EXC TPI
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    Perth, Western Australia
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    The human side of ESE. While Neil Lightbulb is over in Perth to participate in a National pylon event, we gave both Neil and son Carl a thrill in the STRIKE. Both are still alive.

    .Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #22804
    Join Date
    29th December 2011 - 04:14
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    rd 350 ypvs 1985
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    netherlands
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    186
    fs1 problem fixed... in the virtual world that is (inlet tuning, inlet tuning and inlet tuning.... mostly) Had a lot of aha moments, always good.

    But have 2 things I can't seem to solve myself. First, I made a pipe with ATAC and it gave 12% more power, that is with the latest beta, even with a wrong collector (bends where wrong) Anyone else noticed this or should I be aware of an easy to make mistake or?

    Second is the membrane and resonant frequency. When modeling and measuring my tomos I noticed the membrane was way to stiff so I gave it some more free length, still way above what would be concidered ideal but in practice this didn't work at all, bike started '4stroking' at higher revs so my conclusion was that they didn't close fast enough. (though it could (could it?) be something else...)

    edit: lol, something popped in my mind, inlet tuning? The pipe between carb and cilinder is pretty long on the tomos. (but still, engmod didn't show a problem as far as I am aware)

    Any thoughts on that one?

  5. #22805
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    TZ400
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    tAURANGA
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    The 1st harmonic of the reed frequency can be up to around 15% less than the peak Hp rpm.
    This frequency is reduced by increasing the petal length or decreasing its thickness.
    In EngMod you must be careful that the petals do not smash into the reed stops, as this causes easily seen erratic tip
    lift from one cycle to the next.
    You can still run the thin reeds but move the stops further way.
    Intake length is easily seen in that at the rpm you want to tune for, the case pressure ( red ) goes negative at the same time the
    carb / manifold / reed reflecting wave goes positive ( yellow ).
    This helps open the reeds quickly, as the piston begins to rise.
    If the engine 4 strokes in the top end with a reed change, this may signify that the air corrector isnt big enough, or that the main jet is simply too big.
    But if the reed frequency is well above where it should be, then you may have a big mismatch with the intake tuning,that causes the jetting to go to hell as well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  6. #22806
    Join Date
    2nd March 2013 - 15:04
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    CBX125F NS50F NS90F NS-1
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    Lower Hutt
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    Quote Originally Posted by wobbly View Post
    The rotary valve we will use in this new engine is made of carbon/kevlar so its inertia and out of balance is minimal - its even being made in the good ole USA.
    Frits is right about the RV be it on the side or out the back - but using the sliding plate idea on the closing side of the inlet port gives a much better throttle connection
    to enable easyer riding of an overpowered beast.
    In fact Neal and I have discussed the next step to this design, being a pair of plates geared together that would close both sides of the port like a scissor blade action.
    Thus equally reducing the open and close points simultaneously - and that leads onto the logical conclusion you could close the port altogether, deleting the throttle action within the carb or Injector.

    I
    Wobbly, What direction did you decide was the best to rotate this disc in this situation?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  7. #22807
    Join Date
    27th January 2011 - 11:30
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    RS125, TZ80, RS50, RS50, FXR
    Location
    AKL
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    908

    Honda GP125

    Wobbly, Frits, Jan, we've been given figures for how much power the Aprilias were making at the peak of GP125. How much were the Honda's making?
    They continued to use reed valves to the end on their factory bikes too right?

    Would love to hear more about their engine development towards the end of the series life. We generally only hear about the 90's.

  8. #22808
    Join Date
    22nd November 2013 - 16:32
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    STRIKE trike & KTM300 EXC TPI
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
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    878

  9. #22809
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    2nd March 2013 - 15:04
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    CBX125F NS50F NS90F NS-1
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    Lower Hutt
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Would provide less than optimum squish clearance at all settings less than maximum compression, so benefits of lower com might be cancelled by reduced turbulence?

  10. #22810
    Join Date
    20th January 2010 - 14:41
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    husaberg
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    The Wild Wild West
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisc View Post
    Wobbly, Frits, Jan, we've been given figures for how much power the Aprilias were making at the peak of GP125. How much were the Honda's making?
    They continued to use reed valves to the end on their factory bikes too right?

    Would love to hear more about their engine development towards the end of the series life. We generally only hear about the 90's.
    Frits has posted pics of their last kit pipes
    IE same as KTM, pretty much I am picking so was the rest.
    http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/al...hmentid=310144
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  11. #22811
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    12th May 2011 - 23:52
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    razor scooter(pink)
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    Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by lodgernz View Post
    Wobbly, What direction did you decide was the best to rotate this disc in this situation?
    Clockwise port opening from the bottom up

  12. #22812
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    27th October 2013 - 08:53
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    variety
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    usa
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Spent an interesting evening talking with a guy who's name and number was given to me. He had built a turbocharged, alcohol burning fuel injected quad. Big hp and rideable, he suggested the issues with my bike must be somewhere in the sub maps that handle acceleration/deceleration and quite very possibly where the injector was positioned. It was an encouraging talk.

    Also I never knew before how much power was really possible with a turbo 2T and alcohol, truly frightening. When I get the EFI thing sorted I will have to have a go at the turbo thing too .....

    So locally (in NZ) that I know of, there is a EFI YZ250 on petrol, and an air cooled Kawasaki BigHorn on E90 and the Turbo Quad on Alcohol. These all ran Ok, very rideable and throttled well, so there is hope for mine yet.
    did he happen to share any images of the methanol guzzling quad ? ive seen photos of backyard turbo 2t bikes but I don't think they ran long enough to get to the starting gate

  13. #22813
    Join Date
    18th May 2007 - 20:23
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    RG50 and 76 Suzuki GP125 Buckets
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    Auckland
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    10,473
    Quote Originally Posted by peewee View Post
    did he happen to share any images of the methanol guzzling quad ? ive seen photos of backyard turbo 2t bikes but I don't think they ran long enough to get to the starting gate
    Yes ... true, and I would love to see some photos and more information too because it sounded like it was reasonably successful.

    I was just a stranger with EFI problems ringing up unannounced for a chat. There was only so much I could ask for, but he did seem to understand the issues with 2T's and EFI. While we talked he downloaded the Ecotrons manual and quickly zeroed in on the area he thought would be profitable to explore. I left him with my email address and if he sends me any pictures, with his permission I will post them.

  14. #22814
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    20th April 2011 - 08:45
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisc View Post
    Wobbly, Frits, Jan, we've been given figures for how much power the Aprilias were making at the peak of GP125. How much were the Honda's making? They continued to use reed valves to the end on their factory bikes too right?
    Would love to hear more about their engine development towards the end of the series life. We generally only hear about the 90's.
    I looked it up Chris: you joined the KiwiBiker forum three months before I did, so you may already have seen everything I could contribute, including these powercurves from the Aprilia RSW, the RSA and the reed-valve Derbi ridden by Jorge Lorenzo in 2004, I think it was.
    Honda had already abandoned development of their 125 cc racers but Derbi-tuner Harald Bartol had carried on with his Honda-clones (the Derbi cylinders and pipes were exact Honda-copies). Bartols best result was 47,6 hp.
    When Jan Thiel joined Derbi, he played a little with Bartol's inheritance and he managed to extract 49 hp out of the reed-valver before concentrating again on his own disc-valve engine.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #22815
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    8th February 2007 - 20:42
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    tAURANGA
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    The Honda RS250 that was a full factory backed effort ( with several HRC and Showa technicians in the Team Scot tent ) in the last year of 250GP, I know finally for the first time had
    almost normal length longer rods ( 109 I believe ) and the pipes were for sure fatter than had been used ( and published ) previously.
    The engine was quicker than any previous effort, but was still down on power ( and thus top speed ) compared to the Aprilia.
    It did however handle superbly, and the rider Aoyama, who subsequently achieved nothing of note on several GP machines, could cut good enough
    lap times to be consistently at the front of the field.
    Well meaning idiots back at the factory R&D dept had managed to slow down the Aprilia performance in comparison to Jans package, so that did nothing to help.
    Sadly the Aprilia team riders detracted from each others efforts, and basically gave away the title to Honda by default.
    If SuperSic had been in the field , I believe he would for sure have blitzed the title again.
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

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