Police getting tougher on speed tolerance

**haydes55** · 14th December 2014, 21:57

Originally Posted by rastuscat

I was giving an educational presentation at a workplace last week. It's one of a series of presentations for groups of tradies, and I was asked to come and give them 5 to 10 min on the new drink drive levels.

I had a chat to the health and safety folk at each site, and we came to much the same conclusion.

People here generally think that those bad things won't happen to them. For that reason, they see no reason to change their behaviour.

The big issue is that generally, they are right. Like, an electrician will probably go through his career with a few small shocks, but he'll avoid the one that could kill him. It won't happen to him, so he's as careful as he thinks he needs to be.

Unfortunately, some sparky somewhere will be killed by electricity due to some gap in their work practise. Some forestry worker will die, but if you had asked him 10 minutes earlier, he'd likely have told you that it won't happen to him.

Similarly, if I attend a crash, and say to any of the parties involved "Were you expecting that to happen?" they will always say no. Always. That same person, if I had spoken to them ten minutes before the crash, wouldn't have expected the crash, so where is their incentive to change the way they drive?

It's the It Wont Happen To Me syndrome. I don't know if it's an international thing, but it's sure alive and well in NZ.

It's why a lot of people don't connect with those road safety messages that get broadcast. It won't happen to them, so why would they have the change their driving.

Just putting it out there.

$500 bet I can guarantee I won't be involved in a car accident for the rest of my life.

I can't make the same bet about motorbikes yet, still learning new tricks at the moment.

But seriously. I have no idea how to crash a car.

**R650R** · 14th December 2014, 22:01

Originally Posted by rastuscat

It's the It Wont Happen To Me syndrome. I don't know if it's an international thing, but it's sure alive and well in NZ.

It's why a lot of people don't connect with those road safety messages that get broadcast. It won't happen to them, so why would they have the change their driving.

Just putting it out there.

Agreed but I'd amend "It wont happen" to "Not likely to happen and if it does I may as well be having fun when it does"...

The thing with crashes is with E=MC2 and all that the impact experience is scaled on an exponential curve with speed being one of the axis. Lots of people have low speed dings or offs when learning or early in driving lifetimes and ohhh that wasn't so bad. Its not like the hand on the stove as an inquisitive kid where its jesus Christ that fkn hurt!!! Its like as if the element was only luke warm and that the people who say it burns must be softies...

And on top of that human nature aspect you're bombarded with so many threats these days. You could die tomorrow from an Al CIAda attack, ebola, aids from that crumpet at the bar, a knife from the missus when she hears about the crumpet at the bar, hundreds of varieties of cancers.... etc etc. Its very easy to have a fatalistic attitude in modern society. So why crawl along at Nana pace having a boring life when someone else might end it early for you anyway... Not entirely my point of view but just expanding on why so many people don't mind chewing on ghost chips...

Young people these days are tired of the fake shock and awe ads, most know that the mainstream media is a bought and paid for sideshow, so why should they take note of tv ads clearly funded by a govt agency....
Russian Dashcams where its at, I connect with that stuff and it slows me down.... Its real and it happened to someone out there...
Maybe its time the govt gave up on the hearts and minds thing with road safety. Just look at the Americans, even with bombs and regime change they have trouble getting people to change their longly held beliefs.
The only thi9ng you can do is write off everyone who already has a license as a lost cause and just concentrate on the new learner drivers coming through. These new tests where everyone is crying that are too hard are just what we needed....

**R650R** · 14th December 2014, 22:03

Originally Posted by haydes55

$500 bet I can guarantee I won't be involved in a car accident for the rest of my life.

I can't make the same bet about motorbikes yet, still learning new tricks at the moment.

But seriously. I have no idea how to crash a car.

I thought that too.... I was wrong twice...
There are plenty of people out there who will help you learn how to crash... usually at the most inconvenient time in your life to be without a set of wheels...
Glad I was insured both times the reaper slung his scythe my way....

**R650R** · 14th December 2014, 22:10

Actually Haydens comment has just reminded me of something good a traffic cop did in our school days.
Joker came to our primary school and made about 1 in 5 of us I think stand up.
Said this is how many of us would be in serious or fatal crash at some stage in life. Another cop did same thing at high school, both of them were right....

One chap put himself underneath a car while another tried to beat a train... another DUI crashed outside my house and got the bash from the mobsters he drove into... who knows the tally in the years since those early days, lose touch with people etc...

But those cops had it right, sombre and simple, but the message is quickly forgotten in the day to day humdrum of life....

**Big Dog** · 14th December 2014, 22:48

Originally Posted by rastuscat

I was giving an educational presentation at a workplace last week. It's one of a series of presentations for groups of tradies, and I was asked to come and give them 5 to 10 min on the new drink drive levels.

I had a chat to the health and safety folk at each site, and we came to much the same conclusion.

People here generally think that those bad things won't happen to them. For that reason, they see no reason to change their behaviour.

The big issue is that generally, they are right. Like, an electrician will probably go through his career with a few small shocks, but he'll avoid the one that could kill him. It won't happen to him, so he's as careful as he thinks he needs to be.

Unfortunately, some sparky somewhere will be killed by electricity due to some gap in their work practise. Some forestry worker will die, but if you had asked him 10 minutes earlier, he'd likely have told you that it won't happen to him.

Similarly, if I attend a crash, and say to any of the parties involved "Were you expecting that to happen?" they will always say no. Always. That same person, if I had spoken to them ten minutes before the crash, wouldn't have expected the crash, so where is their incentive to change the way they drive?

It's the It Wont Happen To Me syndrome. I don't know if it's an international thing, but it's sure alive and well in NZ.

It's why a lot of people don't connect with those road safety messages that get broadcast. It won't happen to them, so why would they have the change their driving.

Just putting it out there.

I have always believed my final moments will involve a petrol tanker.
I ain't suicidal but I ain't staying home either.
It will happen to me one day. Each day I do my best to make sure today is not the day.

Each time I have had an accident I have felt that something was not right for 1-30 minutes before hand that I just couldn't put my finger on.
Each time it turned out I was right I just lacked to the tools to understand or handle the situation.
After I learned there was a pattern emerging I looked back and tried to be brutally honest about what really happened and tried to analyse it as an unbiased 3rd party. I soon saw the warnings I had ignored or been ignorant to. I also worked on developing tools to handle similar situations in the future.

That was something I had always done with push bike accidents, sports accidents so why not driving / riding? Could it be that all the lessons fed into the hubris created by others telling me I was a great driver?

I think so.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

**Big Dog** · 14th December 2014, 22:52

A young cop asked me once if I had known I was going to crash. His eyebrow climbed fair up into his hairline when I said yes. I just had no idea how, when or why. Otherwise I would not have crashed.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

**caspernz** · 15th December 2014, 04:16

Originally Posted by R650R

Not every time. The other guy was talking about general speeding, eg a little 10-30k over the limit like many people do and in comparison I talk about those that run red lights like they do as normal driving in Auckland, and then the repeat drink drivers ( yes its dangerous and stupid) who don't crash every time they do it.
I was being sarcastic to a certain extent but a crash involves several factors to occur not just one.
BTW I'd expect a driver of your experience to look left and right even on green lights so he wont be under your bumper with good defensive driving.

To comment on that last element first, yes I drive very defensively, and yes I've taken evasive or preventative action on quite a few occasions. Kinda goes hand in hand with driving fuel tankers I have to admit. That Smiths driving system transfers to car and bike as well... But take an example of the bikers vs truck prang on the Harbour Bridge recently. Yes I have first hand info on this. Trucker is in lane 3 and from behind 3 bikers come roaring up and trip over each other. One ends up being partly run over. There are simply instances where no amount of defensive driving from one party is going to help the poor soul who is pushing his luck.

The issue I have with punitive speed enforcement is the perception that various other dangerous everyday practices seem to be overlooked, whether this perception is reality or not...take a guess. Say for example we take a poll amongst those of us who drive for a living, and get them to rate things like tailgating, texting or yapping on the phone, failing to keep left, inconsiderate merging, driving slow on the two lane and hoofing it on a passing lane...and speeding all of a sudden slides way down the list of things that cause accidents. Yes the faster we go the bigger the mess, not an argument at all.

The suggestion made to ban trucks from the fast lane, this may surprise you with me being a career trucker, I'd 100% support that. But on the proviso that we ban overtaking on the left and rigidly enforce the keep left rule. This nonsense of dawdlers sitting in the hammer lane doing 85 while there's two lanes to their left more suited to their pace...oh brother I wish I was back in Europe trucking along. Trucks overtaking trucks at a snails' pace on the motorway just beggars belief, the practice of "elephant racing" is banned in many European countries, and should be here as well.

On a personal level I have no issue at all with Police enforcing the law, they don't make the rules, their task is to enforce. So in a sense I feel the vitriol that is often directed at the Police in regard punitive speed enforcement is a little misguided, yet I understand where Joe Public is coming from, since the perception is that the focus is on speed at the exclusion of many other dodgy behaviour.

Wouldn't it be funny to have the Kodak cash cams capture tailgating for a week or so and issue infringements for failing to observe the 2 second rule? That's kinda what I'm seeing this month so far, convoys of cars doing barely 90 clicks, but less than a second apart. And yes truckers as a group are shocking for tailgating...

**R650R** · 15th December 2014, 06:50

Originally Posted by caspernz

To comment on that last element first, yes I drive very defensively, and yes I've taken evasive or preventative action on quite a few occasions. Kinda goes hand in hand with driving fuel tankers I have to admit. That Smiths driving system transfers to car and bike as well... But take an example of the bikers vs truck prang on the Harbour Bridge recently. Yes I have first hand info on this. Trucker is in lane 3 and from behind 3 bikers come roaring up and trip over each other. One ends up being partly run over. There are simply instances where no amount of defensive driving from one party is going to help the poor soul who is pushing his luck.

The issue I have with punitive speed enforcement is the perception that various other dangerous everyday practices seem to be overlooked, whether this perception is reality or not...take a guess. Say for example we take a poll amongst those of us who drive for a living, and get them to rate things like tailgating, texting or yapping on the phone, failing to keep left, inconsiderate merging, driving slow on the two lane and hoofing it on a passing lane...and speeding all of a sudden slides way down the list of things that cause accidents. Yes the faster we go the bigger the mess, not an argument at all.

The suggestion made to ban trucks from the fast lane, this may surprise you with me being a career trucker, I'd 100% support that. But on the proviso that we ban overtaking on the left and rigidly enforce the keep left rule. This nonsense of dawdlers sitting in the hammer lane doing 85 while there's two lanes to their left more suited to their pace...oh brother I wish I was back in Europe trucking along. Trucks overtaking trucks at a snails' pace on the motorway just beggars belief, the practice of "elephant racing" is banned in many European countries, and should be here as well.

On a personal level I have no issue at all with Police enforcing the law, they don't make the rules, their task is to enforce. So in a sense I feel the vitriol that is often directed at the Police in regard punitive speed enforcement is a little misguided, yet I understand where Joe Public is coming from, since the perception is that the focus is on speed at the exclusion of many other dodgy behaviour.

Wouldn't it be funny to have the Kodak cash cams capture tailgating for a week or so and issue infringements for failing to observe the 2 second rule? That's kinda what I'm seeing this month so far, convoys of cars doing barely 90 clicks, but less than a second apart. And yes truckers as a group are shocking for tailgating...

Agree with most of that.
A poll amongst those that drive for a living is slightly flawed and will always be biased as most of that demographic will be in a constant state of denial. As acknowledging the real cause of accidents highlights ones own shortcomings to much. I'd propose that fatigue and failing to pay proper attention (this involves proactively being aware of other roadusers intentions) are the main causes of accidents, anything that happens is a bad decision originating from those two factors. Speed just amplifies how quick it happens and how big the mess is. But its pretty hard to rant about fatigue and inattention around the smoko room table when everyones eyeballs are on the floor amongst the spilled coffee....

I don't think NZ's motorways and driver are up to the standard of banning trucks from the fast lane. There's so many car drivers that aren't confidant and sit in the fast lane so they only have to worry about traffic on one side of them and do 80k that keeping trucks out of them is negligible benefit. That and banning passing on the left would be economic suicide for NZs economy. There's a huge productivity gain to be had from tactical lane changes in the Akld environment once you know the bottlenecks.

I've been hit hard twice from behind but have little overall concern for tailgating as an actual risk factor as both offenders hit me due to failing to pay attention, distance wasn't an issue.
I actually try and keep a 4 sec distance in car and bike so I can observe and gently roll off when other people dither and only close in when an overtake is on. In trucks I've found 6-7 offers the best for safety and fuel economy even following a driver you know as they will always do something different and its a good distance to initiate a close up and slingshot overtake up the hills.
NZ transport industry needs to get over its obsession that its evil to use the service brakes when needed (and that other fairy tale of only using the trailer brakes in an emergency

), reckon lot of guys have crashed or rolled as their to worried about the shame of their mate seeing the brake lights come on and having to admit they screwed up. When I went to the UK under no situation was it acceptable to use the gears to slow down approaching junctions. Aside from holding up the traffic flow the number crunchers their reckoned the time saving and brake servicing worked out cheaper than the extra fuel use and transmission wear. And when they take the sunvisors of their Volvos to save 1.5-2% fuel per year I guess they have done their maths.

No matter what mode of use, we're still very ambulance at the bottom of the cliff in NZ. It will be interesting to see when big brother GPS becomes widespread amongst cars and bikes if it reduces crashes as bad habits are hard to rid or just makes the mess investigation easier afterwards...

**Ulsterkiwi** · 15th December 2014, 07:59

Originally Posted by rastuscat

I was giving an educational presentation at a workplace last week. It's one of a series of presentations for groups of tradies, and I was asked to come and give them 5 to 10 min on the new drink drive levels.

I had a chat to the health and safety folk at each site, and we came to much the same conclusion.

People here generally think that those bad things won't happen to them. For that reason, they see no reason to change their behaviour.

The big issue is that generally, they are right. Like, an electrician will probably go through his career with a few small shocks, but he'll avoid the one that could kill him. It won't happen to him, so he's as careful as he thinks he needs to be.

Unfortunately, some sparky somewhere will be killed by electricity due to some gap in their work practise. Some forestry worker will die, but if you had asked him 10 minutes earlier, he'd likely have told you that it won't happen to him.

Similarly, if I attend a crash, and say to any of the parties involved "Were you expecting that to happen?" they will always say no. Always. That same person, if I had spoken to them ten minutes before the crash, wouldn't have expected the crash, so where is their incentive to change the way they drive?

It's the It Wont Happen To Me syndrome. I don't know if it's an international thing, but it's sure alive and well in NZ.

It's why a lot of people don't connect with those road safety messages that get broadcast. It won't happen to them, so why would they have the change their driving.

Just putting it out there.

I hear you
Have done this a fair bit but with respect to health promotion, particularly with men. Similar problem, most fellas think its someone else's problem. The idea of regular check ups and thinking ahead about how you treat your body is a totally foreign concept.
Me? get sick? nah mate, beersie every night, few smokes and a pie for breakfast, all good.

**Scuba_Steve** · 15th December 2014, 09:18

Originally Posted by rastuscat

It's why a lot of people don't connect with those road safety messages that get broadcast. It won't happen to them, so why would they have the change their driving.

Just putting it out there.

Could also be because the propaganda contains so much fallacy it's like the guy at the pub that tells you he did 240km/h from Auck to Wellington and made it down in 2hrs

Just saying

**scumdog** · 15th December 2014, 11:15

Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi

I hear you
Have done this a fair bit but with respect to health promotion, particularly with men. Similar problem, most fellas think its someone else's problem. The idea of regular check ups and thinking ahead about how you treat your body is a totally foreign concept.
Me? get sick? nah mate, beersie every night, few smokes and a pie for breakfast, all good.

And when bad shit DOES happen to them?

It's always "Somebodye Elses Fault" (tm).

**buggerit** · 15th December 2014, 12:19

Originally Posted by cassina

There is a few on this website that have an attitude it wont happen to me, even if its due to someone else screwing up because in the past they have always had time to brake/swerve around the vehicle/obstacle in their way or coming at them.

And then there are others with observational skills so poor, and reaction times so slow, that they couldnt get out of the
way of the tide coming in

**IkieBikie** · 15th December 2014, 13:05

Originally Posted by cassina

There is a few on this website that have an attitude it wont happen to me, even if its due to someone else screwing up because in the past they have always had time to brake/swerve around the vehicle/obstacle in their way or coming at them.

Take the same blah blah blah from one thread to another and put your interpretation on it.

I read the other thread and what I got was

There is a few on this website that have an attitude that we should always be alert to someone else screwing up because you may possibly have time to brake/swerve around the vehicle/obstacle in their way or coming at them.

And I totally agree with them