Oddball engines and prototypes

[Frits Overmars]

Was this pretty close: I think energy spent shaking stuff up and down could be better used to spin stuff round and round.( this is a bit of Jan and Frits paraphrased)

Yep, I said it and Jan may have said it too.

Out of interest with the MV what were the casting like, they always look so huge but where they well finished or just so so.

They were sand castings, pretty much identical to their racing engines. In fact the whole construction was, except that after the first version the racers got a chain transmission while the street version kept the original cardan shaft.
The crankshaft was bolted with saddles to the underside of the cylinder block that doubled as a lid on the big empty space of the crankcase. The gearbox was fitted from the side.
I tested the MV 750 S America-version in 1976 or so, together with the then-new Suzuki GS750 four-cylinder four-stroke. The Suzuki was at least twice as good in all respects and it cost half the price of the MV.

[WilDun]

Helmut did not do just the one.
built a 500-4 two-stroke boxer with four rotary inlet discs; two contra-rotating discs stacked above one another for each pair of cylinders, so the inlet ports would open twice as fast. And finally he built a 250-2 boxer, the HF3.

Had forgotten about the two stroke 4 cyl boxer, and never even knew about the HF3, (almost forgot about bikes for at least 10 years - hospitalised for a while) I have missed quite a bit it seems!

BTW, Talking about using the name Muller (for devious purposes) - I thought it would have been Schmit (or is it Schmidt?). but Smith and Miller are certainly pretty common in Britain! - there is definitely a strong connection with Germany in a lot of English names, - eg Lincoln, and a lot of translations ie. sounding the same but spelt differently, eg Cole (Kohl), Brown (Braun), etc etc. - pity they keep on arguing!
Nearly forgot - then there was Mrs.Thatcher, an argument personified!

[Frits Overmars]

Schmidt came a close second to Müller in the German family name frequency list. Now mentioning Mrs.Thatcher reminds me of Angie, or Mutti (mother) as the Germans like to call their chancellor Angela Merkel. Did you know that she is a chemist by profession and paid for her university education by tending bar? Great character; she may look soft but the way she put Vladimir Putin in his place in fluent Russian in a live TV-broadcast, I loved it.

[WilDun]

Yep, I said it and Jan may have said it too.

They were sand castings, pretty much identical to their racing engines. I tested the MV 750 S America-version in 1976 or so, together with the then-new Suzuki GS750 four-cylinder four-stroke. The Suzuki was at least twice as good in all respects and it cost half the price of the MV.

That look was really started by Gilera with their Saturno four cylinder racer of the fifties then the designer (can't remember who) moved to MV and made an almost identical one for MV.

Geoff Duke then moved to Gilera and helped them sort out the handling and so the great rivalry between the two Italian companies started. Les Graham got killed on the MV on Bray Hill and I think Surtees took over.
I always thought that although the Gilera and MV engines looked very similar the Gilera was really a much better looking bike!

Going back in the thread (I just can't keep up) I'm fairly sure that the V8 Moto Guzzi had split (needle roller) bigends - outboard motor style!

[Frits Overmars]

I always thought that although the Gilera and MV engines looked very similar the Gilera was really a much better looking bike!

Same here.

I'm fairly sure that the V8 Moto Guzzi had split (needle roller) bigends - outboard motor style!

Hard to tell; the needles are there but can you see a split?

[WilDun]

Angie, or Mutti (mother) as the Germans like to call their chancellor Angela Merkel. Great character; the way she put Putin in his place in fluent Russian in a Europe-wide live TV-transmission, I loved it.

Yes, she is a very clever and capable lady but i think not quite as abrasive as "Ma" Thatcher was!
and, "puttin" Putin in his place would be no mean feat, - Gorbachev I believe held Maggie in very high esteem though.

Taking about Russians, do you remember their 350cc 4 cylinder racer (government sponsored) with which they made an attempt at the world championship back in the sixties? - forget what they called it, but I did feel sorry that they didn't make it stick. (was that in the Kruschev era?).

I think Franta Stasny blew it into the weeds with his four stroke Jawa twin.

[WilDun]

Same here.
Hard to tell; the needles are there but can you see a split?

Pretty sure it was a one piece crank, but (as always,) I could be wrong

[Frits Overmars]

I'm fairly sure that the V8 Moto Guzzi had split (needle roller) bigends - outboard motor style!

You're right mate. I kept klicking on the drawing until I could distinguish the big end bolt below.

[Grumph]

As a further indulgence, some more pics, some of a guy who lives in Perth. The others about Dr Gordon Blair of QUB. He, in fact, came to Orbital during his sabbatical, must have been around in 1998. He was in 4 stroke mode then. I lent him this scrapbook, while he was there. Semi got him out of 4 strokes for a bit.

Blair came to Christchurch NZ on what was probably the same trip. Guest of the Engine Reconditioners Assn and spoke at their conference. The Britten boys and me were the only bike people there. Yes, he was heavily into the 4t computer simulation at that time, showed us several simulated dyno runs which came at the end of of a design stage entirely on computer....He'd just finished an engine design for Nissan, the cylinder heads had gone through three versions, none of which had actually been made, all virtual, very impressive stuff.
He got talking about combustion chamber shape and burning problems so i asked the obvious question...5 valves, given the ignition curves needed, worth the effort ? he said his mates at Toyota/Yamaha wouldn't like it, but no, not worth it...And where did i work ? For a yamaha agency...much laughter...

Split roller bearings....shit, I remember McCulloch big ends....Couple of years back i was shown a crank for a 1927 Delage GP car here. Straight 8, 1.5L about a meter long...one piece with split roller big ends. That sort of thing was common in pre war GP cars. Cost was not a consideration. The MV and the Guzzi simply carried on what was seen as best practise at the time.

[WilDun]

You're right mate. I kept klicking on the drawing until I could distinguish the big end bolt below.

Thanks you guys, i was beginning to doubt myself! - here am I, a layman (in motorcycle terms), trying to sound knowledgeable about things motorcycle! -I was quite passionate about the stuff from my younger days though and this discussion is making things I had forgotten come back again.


Oh yes, and note that big spine on the Moto Guzzi V8 frame !

........and it had a 'complete' cylinder block (no head) as in the Offenhauser? speedway car engine, - the cylinder sleeves were screwed in, (notches on the skirt for spanners I think), threads were at the top ends only, sealing on a taper on the lip at the top of the sleeve.
I'm told they experimented with different cranks too, using either single plane or two plane, giving quite different beats as well.
The Guzzi may have had a few other problems, but never a blown head gasket!

[WilDun]

Apologies to Husa etc. if he has covered this before.
This engine (Wooler) which at one stage was run in the Brough Superior is a real "oddball" type of engine and it actually worked!
The pistons it seems all moved in unison! (must have been some clever balancing forces involved there!). - at least in one of his creations that was the case, I haven't really studied this one as yet,

[J.A.W.]

Check out the 'knife & fork' conrod arrangement of this Daimler-Benz V12.. http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ght-7Nov40.pdf
The split roller big end bearings shown - were replaced by plain bearings on later production versions, & this caused some issues..

[J.A.W.]

This German outfit also has a long history in building robust rolling element bearing crankshafts..
www.hirth-engines.de/index.php/en/2-stroke-logic

[husaberg]

Blair came to Christchurch NZ on what was probably the same trip. Guest of the Engine Reconditioners Assn and spoke at their conference. The Britten boys and me were the only bike people there. Yes, he was heavily into the 4t computer simulation at that time, showed us several simulated dyno runs which came at the end of of a design stage entirely on computer....He'd just finished an engine design for Nissan, the cylinder heads had gone through three versions, none of which had actually been made, all virtual, very impressive stuff.
He got talking about combustion chamber shape and burning problems so i asked the obvious question...5 valves, given the ignition curves needed, worth the effort ? he said his mates at Toyota/Yamaha wouldn't like it, but no, not worth it...And where did i work ? For a yamaha agency...much laughter...

Split roller bearings....shit, I remember McCulloch big ends....Couple of years back i was shown a crank for a 1927 Delage GP car here. Straight 8, 1.5L about a meter long...one piece with split roller big ends. That sort of thing was common in pre war GP cars. Cost was not a consideration. The MV and the Guzzi simply carried on what was seen as best practise at the time.

Was that before or after Britten tried the 5 valve heads as well.

TKRJ still sell the split bearings.

[WilDun]

This German outfit also has a long history in building robust rolling element bearing crankshafts..

A very interesting article on the DB inverted V!

The Hirth two stroke is interesting too - "FLETTNER" in the other thread (bucket foundry) is working on what could quite possibly become a worthy competitor - it is a 750cc parallel twin two stroke, already working in other areas, (trying many other experimental projects as well).