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Thread: ESE's works engine tuner

  1. #38491
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    Wos,
    We ran the CanAm motorcycles (Enduro and Motocross) back in the 70's that had that engine. In that time it was a great engine! It had a wide powerband, good transmission ratios and was reliable. We liked the 175 as it would keep up with the 250's on the long dirt roads between trail sections, the weak points were the CDI which was very expensive to replace and the rotary side crank seal leaking causing bad smoking..We ran them basically stock except for some pipe work and lots of frame modifications to increase suspension travel.
    Nice to hear your review 190mech!
    In classic enduro competition the Rotax still is often in use, but most of them are bone stock.
    175 are very rare, most are 125cc

    Tomorrow is next race in south of germany

    https://www.moc-steinsberg.de

    We take part with tgm 125 and hrd 75cc, both well tuned within regulations, no part untouched, for example programmable lightweight hpi ignition, fine suspension from race division of yss

    Same we want do next months to the puch frigerio rotax

    Grüße Wolfgang

  2. #38492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wos View Post
    Is increasing small free volume of crankcase with this uggly long intake duct effctive too? Did you test this ? Or only with carb direct on rotary case?
    If you increase the crankcase volume, you lower the Helmholtz frequency of the inlet system, so the engine wants to producve its maximum torque at lower revs. But the exhaust pipe has to agree, otherwise: no deal, unless you restore the original Helmholtz frequency with a longer inlet timing.
    But that was already damn long to begin with. It would make carburation quite moody, so that's about the last thing I would do to a dirt bike.

    Did I test it? Yes. Not with the original Rotax inlet tract, but with an elongation piece between carb and disc. It led to the following story (that you can find, together with a lot of other short stories, in my FOS tips & concepts):
    https://1drv.ms/u/s!Atyzb5b7jtWNmVcX...5eKjL?e=nxuw41
    =================================================
    In all inlet systems the inlet flow accelerates as long as the pressure upstream of the inlet tract is higher than the downstream pressure.
    When both pressures are equal the flow has reached its maximum velocity and because mixture keeps entering the crankcase, the case pressure rises above the upstream pressure and this rising pressure gently slows the flow down to a standstill (or suddenly instead of gently if the inlet port closes too soon, which can happen in both piston port and rotary induction systems).
    In any case, the pressure at the crankcase side of the inlet tract will then be higher than the pressure at the bellmouth, and mixture will start flowing back towards the free world. The extend of this backflow may be so small that it is not noticeable at the bellmouth, but it is happening nevertheless. Reed valve systems do it just as much as other inlet control systems.

    I call this phenomenon bounce-back and it should not be confused with the blow-back that occurs when an inlet port closes too late.
    Bounce-back mixture never really made it into the crankcase; it returned at the closed door.
    Blown-back mixture initially entered the crankcase but then reversed its flow direction because of the rising case pressure before the case was closed.
    This rising case pressure resulting in flow reversal has rather little to do with the piston moving down after TDC. It can even happen before TDC if the Helmholtz frequency of the inlet system is too high for the engine revs (low revs, big carb diameter, short inlet tract, small case volume).

    By the way, bounce-back may be hardly noticeable, but on the other hand it can be even more vicious than blow-back.
    As an experiment I once put a 200 mm elongation tube between the carb and the rotary inlet cover of a 125 cc Rotax.
    It lowered the Helmholtz frequency of the inlet system so much that inlet flow velocity was still near its maximum when the inlet disc closed. Bounce-back was so severe that within seconds the dyno room was completely fogged up with mixture. It frightened me to death; a spark would have been enough to blow the roof off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wos View Post
    Make us understand physics of 2 stroke...as you did
    Physics is something you study; not many shortcuts, or as Wobbly would put it: no free lunch (he must be thinking with his stomach).
    But I've got something better to offer: logic. Anyone can do it and in my opinion logic is more important than mathematics and physics together.

  3. #38493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    If you increase the crankcase volume, you lower the Helmholtz frequency of the inlet system, so the engine wants to producve its maximum torque at lower revs. But the exhaust pipe has to agree, otherwise: no deal, unless you restore the original Helmholtz frequency with a longer inlet timing.
    But that was already damn long to begin with. It would make carburation quite moody, so that's about the last thing I would do to a dirt bike.

    Did I test it? Yes. Not with the original Rotax inlet tract, but with an elongation piece between carb and disc. It led to the following story (that you can find, together with a lot of other short stories, in my FOS tips & concepts):
    https://1drv.ms/u/s!Atyzb5b7jtWNmVcX...5eKjL?e=nxuw41
    =================================================
    In all inlet systems the inlet flow accelerates as long as the pressure upstream of the inlet tract is higher than the downstream pressure.
    When both pressures are equal the flow has reached its maximum velocity and because mixture keeps entering the crankcase, the case pressure rises above the upstream pressure and this rising pressure gently slows the flow down to a standstill (or suddenly instead of gently if the inlet port closes too soon, which can happen in both piston port and rotary induction systems).
    In any case, the pressure at the crankcase side of the inlet tract will then be higher than the pressure at the bellmouth, and mixture will start flowing back towards the free world. The extend of this backflow may be so small that it is not noticeable at the bellmouth, but it is happening nevertheless. Reed valve systems do it just as much as other inlet control systems.

    I call this phenomenon bounce-back and it should not be confused with the blow-back that occurs when an inlet port closes too late.
    Bounce-back mixture never really made it into the crankcase; it returned at the closed door.
    Blown-back mixture initially entered the crankcase but then reversed its flow direction because of the rising case pressure before the case was closed.
    This rising case pressure resulting in flow reversal has rather little to do with the piston moving down after TDC. It can even happen before TDC if the Helmholtz frequency of the inlet system is too high for the engine revs (low revs, big carb diameter, short inlet tract, small case volume).

    By the way, bounce-back may be hardly noticeable, but on the other hand it can be even more vicious than blow-back.
    As an experiment I once put a 200 mm elongation tube between the carb and the rotary inlet cover of a 125 cc Rotax.
    It lowered the Helmholtz frequency of the inlet system so much that inlet flow velocity was still near its maximum when the inlet disc closed. Bounce-back was so severe that within seconds the dyno room was completely fogged up with mixture. It frightened me to death; a spark would have been enough to blow the roof off.

    Physics is something you study; not many shortcuts, or as Wobbly would put it: no free lunch (he must be thinking with his stomach).
    But I've got something better to offer: logic. Anyone can do it and in my opinion logic is more important than mathematics and physics together.
    Thank you very much frits!

    Your text making me see a heavy slow accelerated ...coming to late head... bouncing a closing disc... thank you !

    Your conclusion do not lengthen conrod...do the oposit
    ??

    Yesterday saw aftermarket pipe of swm rotax ... clearly to short i thought ... about 900mm...we thougt about 110 cm...or more
    To come more in frequency of that long inlet tunnel...case Helmholtz swinging system

    The pipe resonance would be then about 8500...or even deeper

    But after your words my stomach says/ asks...could that be deep enough?

    Wether me, nor my stomach are dr. Physics...so wonderfull we can ask frits top

    Many thanks frits

    Grüße Wolfgang

  4. #38494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wos View Post
    Your conclusion do not lengthen conrod...do the oposit
    Where did I say that??

  5. #38495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Where did I say that??
    Sorry frits

    Was my conclusion in the end...thougt you would conclude ...if i understood your text...

    Have to be more careful

    Had a look to a nikasil type

    Much better main exhaust port i think

    Grüße Wolfgang
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #38496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank S. View Post
    🍻maybe we will drink from the winner cup😎
    We'll try to avoid that see you tomorrow!

    cheers #29

  7. #38497
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    Having the advantage of designing my intake any way i want, i am curios about what would you say is the 'optimal' velocity stack design for a short intake twostroke engine?

    My throttlebody is as we speak only 32mm long and i haven't calculated with the stacks yet, i´ve been looking at RSA ofcourse.
    But is that design best for reed intake?

    I can now choose about any design i want.

    Diam is as we speak 38mm due to problem with space for the internal slide between the bolts, but i can later mill the openings somewhat oval to get more area if needed.

    I have been simulating in MOTA that i lose about 300rpm at midrange, but gain almost 1000rpm longer 'peak power', this from 114mm long intake to 32mm(not calculating with reed length)
    But the stack design is a little bit of a queston for me i need straighten out.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #38498
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    Quote Originally Posted by koenich View Post
    We'll try to avoid that see you tomorrow!

    cheers #29
    Catch me if you can😁
    ... see you...
    #39 Lucky losers racing team

  9. #38499
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    Here's the proportions of Blair's "ideal bell" along with the effective length above the bell from Wobbly.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Rather than having to remember or look it up each time, I start with this drawing and scale it as needed.
    Patrick Owens
    www.OopsClunkThud.com

  10. #38500
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    The effective intake tract length is as per the bell drawing with the "end correction " added , but my research during a PhD project showed you should use 2/3 of the petals actual free
    length in the sim as the length changes as the tips lift ( plus any length up to the clamp point ).
    Ive got a thing thats unique and new.To prove it I'll have the last laugh on you.Cause instead of one head I got two.And you know two heads are better than one.

  11. #38501
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    velocity stack

    Quote Originally Posted by OopsClunkThud View Post
    Here's the proportions of Blair's "ideal bell" along with the effective length above the bell from Wobbly.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Rather than having to remember or look it up each time, I start with this drawing and scale it as needed.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I could soon, I hope, have the latest research done in F1 atmo

  12. #38502
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsClunkThud View Post
    Here's the proportions of Blair's "ideal bell" along with the effective length above the bell from Wobbly.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Rather than having to remember or look it up each time, I start with this drawing and scale it as needed.
    I have tried this design a couple of years ago on a small engine, didn´t work out well
    I lost power everywhere.

    I have actually had better luck with the left design at schetch below, the right is about the design i had that gave losses.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is why i´m asking, as it is far away from Blair´s ideal bell.
    And if i´m allowed to guess is that a twostroke differs a lot from a foulstroke engine, much less amplitude in the pulses, but more often.
    I also guess that a reed engine might differ from a disc engine.

    And blow again a small test i did a couple of years ago with constant flow, with or without velocity stack.

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OIjbA...?feature=share

    The straight pipe got sucked down as it had a lot of turbulens(created noise)
    The velocitystack didn´t want to go inside the hose, needed to force it.
    And when placed into the hose it wanted to jump out, probably because it created a 'high' pressuredifference from outside to inside.

  13. #38503
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    As sketched I would think the biggest difference impacting performance would be in the length.
    Patrick Owens
    www.OopsClunkThud.com

  14. #38504
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    This came up of FB feed today - looks nice -apologies if it's been posted before https://www.facebook.com/rimarmotors
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

  15. #38505
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    This came up of FB feed today - looks nice -apologies if it's been posted before https://www.facebook.com/rimarmotors
    I had a look. Very impressive bit of work.

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