Stats, stats, oh how we hate them, but? [Archive]

terbang

1st June 2009, 20:53

Notice the road toll this QB weekend is up on that from previous. If I remember right, Easter was the same?
I thought that was what the police are trying to lower by targeting drink driving and speeding.
There must be some stat on this...
Have they slackened off on us road criminals?
Have they changed their focus in the wrong direction (i.e car crushing for boi racers).
Have they been generating less revenue, thus poorer roads and less cops?
Or What?

Mully

1st June 2009, 21:10

YellowDog

1st June 2009, 21:44

One of the accidents was a truck trying to avoid a pedestrian. Both were killed, plus a chemical spill to boot.

We rarely hear the cause of serious accidents. It can't always and only be speed. Modern cars are generally safely capable of almost twice the speed limit. It would be good to know the actual causes.

As a general comment, I have noticed quite a variance in passing methods. Some roads have passing lanes every few Kms, others seem to have a shared passing lane for both directions (bloody dangerous).

I headed down south a couple of weeks back and picked up 35 points and a $230 fine for passing a car on a straight piece of road before slowing down to closer to the speed limit. Somehow such entrapment is going to make the roads safer and reduce accidents. I don't think so. Perhaps the police should be stopping drivers overtaking on blind bends or driving too closely to other cars.

Rant over....................

Headbanger

1st June 2009, 21:52

ynot slow

1st June 2009, 22:05

Perhaps the police should be stopping drivers overtaking on blind bends or driving too closely to other cars.

Rant over....................

My 2c worth about passing on bends,driving home from Wanganui on Saturday arvo,go and pass a couple of cars on passing lane,see a few bikes in mirrors,pull over as they approach to enable safe pass if they wish as lane running out,all but a couple pass ok,last 2 not overly unsafe.
Next they decide to pass a truck,whilst going downhill and then into a lefthand bend which rises slightly,anyway the first 4 or so get passed well before bend,the last couple decide we'll go as well as they reach about 70mt to start of bend,approaching I can see(on slight incline 200mts behind) a mid size truck and a cruiser,start thinking this is seriously going to hurt as they got closer,somehow all went ok,but the gesturing by rider to pillion on cruiser said they were annoyed.Stopped at the pub in Bulls were the bikes,hope they cleaned their leathers cause man it looked friggin close.

James Deuce

1st June 2009, 22:09

Lot more people drink driving too, according to the latest stats.

Simply not enough cops to tell people how to behave. We should all have our own personal one. Only way to do it really.

AllanB

1st June 2009, 22:11

They have been blaming the weather this weekend. Lucky that Labour is out of power or they would be taxing wet days......:devil2:

I was out in the car with the family yesterday - through town and onto the Christchurch motorway - I was sticking to the speed limit everywhere, it was pissing down - I was passed by practically everyone .......

Hitcher

1st June 2009, 22:14

James Deuce

1st June 2009, 22:19

I blame righteous indignation.

FJRider

1st June 2009, 22:20

Lot more people drink driving too, according to the latest stats.

Simply not enough cops to tell people how to behave. We should all have our own personal one. Only way to do it really.

The term for this personal one, is often "partner" (wife/husband)... ignore at your peril ...

Personal responsibility, is upto the person...

FJRider

1st June 2009, 22:23

On the subject of lies, damned lies and statistics, there is a difference between driving too fast for the conditions and "speeding".

New Zealand's speed limits are amongst the world's lowest. Why then are our road accidents higher than other comparable countries? Absence of driver training, I would postulate.

We don't need more driver training 'cause we're better than everybody else .... aren't we .....???

James Deuce

1st June 2009, 22:31

Don't make me come over all righteously indignant.

MaxB

1st June 2009, 22:44

They have been blaming the weather this weekend. Lucky that Labour is out of power or they would be taxing wet days......:devil2:

Plus do you remember that it was Labour that brought in the 40k over and 28 day walk laws despite '40 kmh over' fatalities being a tiny minority of the total.

Jiminy

1st June 2009, 23:24

New Zealand's speed limits are amongst the world's lowest. Why then are our road accidents higher than other comparable countries? Absence of driver training, I would postulate.

Mmmmmmh, not according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

Most fast roads here are highways, not motorways.

Having said that, I agree with the absence of driver training.

James Deuce

2nd June 2009, 00:02

Mmmmmmh, not according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

A. That's wikipedia and you're not allowed to quote wikipedia in Internet forums. To do so is an automatic fail for your argument.

B. Remove the countries that have no reliable roading system outside their cities, or are congested city states from that list and NZ is slow, slow, slow.

terbang

2nd June 2009, 09:02

Yup we are slow and yet our current kill rate is the highest for 13 years!
Two examples for a different perspective.

I spend a lot of time in the UK and the speed limit is 70 MPH (around 110K) for the motorways. And yet the tempo on say the M1 is anywhere up to 90 MPH and there are those going faster. It seems to be all flowing in an orderly fashion (they aren't allowed to undertake there) and drivers are generally courteous. There is a distinct impression that if its all flowing along nicely, albeit above the speed limit, the police leave well alone.

I drive in Saudi Arabia, which is nothing short of disorganized chaos. They drive fast, they tailgate and generally have poor skills as there is no driver education. Yet oddly enough, they are courteous and patient with each other. You can miss your turn in heavy traffic, flick on the hazards, do a youey right in front of everyone else, and they will all give you enough slack (often with a wave) as they realize you made a mistake and its only going to cost them a few seconds. I don't see that many accidents on the highways there either, though the do have them and the penalties for stupidity are high too.

One would like to think that we have some good heads at the top of our "road safety" who will take heed of what has happened this weekend and do something realistic about it other than the old speed/drunk/boi racer chant.

Hitcher

2nd June 2009, 09:18

Mmmmmmh, not according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

Read that again, Sam.

MSTRS

2nd June 2009, 09:23

One would like to think that we have some good heads at the top of our "road safety" who will take heed of what has happened this weekend and do something realistic about it other than the old speed/drunk/boi racer chant.

Yep. That's definitely a pig flying past my window...

ManDownUnder

2nd June 2009, 09:26

I'm glad we have independant thinking people at the top that care for motorist welbeing rather than being overly contrained by budgetary and political influence.

imdying

2nd June 2009, 09:29

New Zealand's speed limits are amongst the world's lowest.No, they're not.

MSTRS

2nd June 2009, 09:30

In this utopia of ours, contrained is definitely a word

oldrider

2nd June 2009, 09:35

On the subject of lies, damned lies and statistics, there is a difference between driving too fast for the conditions and "speeding".

New Zealand's speed limits are amongst the world's lowest. Why then are our road accidents higher than other comparable countries? Absence of driver training, I would postulate.

Absence of "personal responsibility" I would postulate! :shifty:

Like Jim said above, we will each be issued with our own personal police officers soon! :Police:

Who will watch the watchers, when the watchers are not watching? :confused:

ManDownUnder

2nd June 2009, 09:40

Who will watch the watchers, when the watchers are not watching? :confused:

Rolex.....?

Genestho

2nd June 2009, 09:53

It's been said already, heres my version:

Cops have got nowt to do with road toll's or fatalities...

There are not enough cops to sit with you when your'e over the drink/drive limit, they cannot tell you to chill out and be patient...they cannot tell you to indicate at roundabouts, don't pass on blind corners because you're in a hurry.
Even if there were enough cops, why should they be directly responsible for stupid driver activity? All they can do is enforce it when they see it..

The people that could really teach us, are dead.

Wonder of wonders, that's down to us to think about! :shit:

I do await the 10 year road safety plan...

With the amount of politicians done for drink driving, I wonder if that has much to do with past inactivity and mere chants...
However there is a big pause down in Welly on drink driving, and I await to see the outcomes :shifty:

I know of many fatalities where the driver was being a dick on the roads, forewarning, *555, or 111, you never know who you might save.

Edbear

2nd June 2009, 09:54

Mmmmmmh, not according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

Most fast roads here are highways, not motorways.

Having said that, I agree with the absence of driver training.

I don't think it is "driver training" in NZ, as from what I've seen the new young drivers are being well educated in this, especially insofar as the driver training schools go.

The stats show three problem areas - youngsters, that is under 25's driving recklessly and irresponsibly, drink-driving and showing off, and older drivers, that is over 30's and particularly in the 40's, being racidivist drink drivers.

The other biggie is that too many people simply cannot drive and this is nothing to do with age, race or gender. I've seen drivers of all types driving erratically, unable to cope with cornering, oncoming traffic, varying road conditions, etc. The surprise was that many of these incompetents are white European males in their 30's!

The problem for authorites is not in ensuring adequate driver training, though using a registered driving school should be mandatory, but in what to do about so many older drivers who have had their licences for years, but are simply incompetent.

The drink-drive message is just not getting through and many fatal accidents are caused by stupid overtaking moves and loss of control on bends.

How do you regulate against that?

MSTRS

2nd June 2009, 10:46

.... many fatal accidents are caused by stupid overtaking moves and loss of control on bends.

How do you regulate against that?

The problem here is just that. Over-regulation.
Lowered speed limits, increased yellowline areas and draconian enforcement have all led to generally lower open road traffic speeds. It is entirely normal (now) to get stuck behind some tool doing 80kph, who will not move over to allow overtaking and who will almost always speed up when passing lanes etc present. I'm obviously talking cars here. The end result is FRUSTRATION and ill-advised manouevres on the part of many drivers who wish to travel at the speed limit, but are prevented from doing so by the aforementioned 80kph turkeys. The simmering frustration does not dissipate entirely once clear, either. It simply gets racheted up each time one meets another slow driver, until it gets to the point of "Fuckit, the road seems clear, I'm just gonna pass right here without slowing down". The space/time continuum will only allow this so many times, before....:shit:

Swoop

2nd June 2009, 11:02

Yep. That's definitely a pig flying past my window...
It must be a supersonic piggy. It just flew past my window as well!
Perhaps they migrate north during winter?

Genestho

2nd June 2009, 11:13

The stats show three problem areas - youngsters, that is under 25's driving recklessly and irresponsibly, drink-driving and showing off, and older drivers, that is over 30's and particularly in the 40's, being racidivist drink drivers.

The drink-drive message is just not getting through and many fatal accidents are caused by stupid overtaking moves and loss of control on bends.

How do you regulate against that?

Using alcohol related fatality stats via MOT ( "Speed or other factors" are not what I research)

43% are full license holders
The other 57% are:

Learners license holders
Restricted
Disqualified
"Other" IE wrong license classification or have never held a license.

57% of alcohol related fatalities will not be avoided by simply lowering the limit!

The same stats also show, MOST fatalities are 2 and 3 times over the current legal limit.
Oh AND! I have information via the Information act that only 5% of all dd's are sent off for assessment.

As far as recidivist drink drivers, that behaviour (according to a wide range of research I own partial copyright to) is symptomatic of wider issues.
I can see that if we treat the symptoms (or at least put more effort into that area) we reduce the behaviour. Just my view..

I know a guy who intends to get loud about crushing drink drivers cars, so we shall see how that goes.

I have also invited Tui to do a "YeahRight" Billboard for B.A.D.D (DB Breweries sound keen at this point!) and we have a few things coming up that will hopefully encourage awareness of the consequences of drink driving, and promote responsibility!

Mstrs - Frustration is a fair call mate.

I followed a campervan pootling along, about 15 of us cars behind, I could see at least 5 cars were chomping at the bit to get past, so I pulled waaaaaaaaay back....

All avoidable if Campervan guy looked in his mirrors, and gently pulled over every now and then.

I recon I see at least an average of about 5 close calls, everyweek!

I clock up alot of k's.

Drivers should remember, all we have is a whiteline protecting us.

Edbear

2nd June 2009, 11:16

Using alcohol related fatality stats via MOT ( "Speed or other factors" are not what I research)

43% are full license holders
The other 57% are:

Learners license holders
Restricted
Disqualified
"Other" IE wrong license classification or have never held a license.

57% of alcohol related fatalities will not be avoided by simply lowering the limit!

As far as recidivist drink drivers, that behaviour (according to a wide range of research I own partial copyright to) is symptomatic of wider issues.
I can see that if we treat the symptoms (or at least put more effort into that area) we reduce the behaviour. Just my view..

I know a guy who intends to get loud about crushing drink drivers cars, so we shall see how that goes.

I have also invited Tui to do a "YeahRight" Billboard for B.A.D.D (DB Breweries sound keen at this point!) and we have a few things coming up that will hopefully encourage awareness of the consequences of drink driving, and promote responsibility!

Mstrs - Frustration is a fair call mate.

I followed a campervan pootling along, about 15 of us cars behind, I could see at least 5 cars were chomping at the bit to get past, so I pulled waaaaaaaaay back....

All avoidable if Campervan guy looked in his mirrors, and gently pulled over every now and then.

I recon I see at least an average of about 5 close calls, everyweek!

I clock up alot of k's.

Drivers should remember, all we have is a whiteline protecting us.

Good post!

terbang

2nd June 2009, 11:26

MSTRS

2nd June 2009, 11:57

So it seems, Education vs Legislation is an issue.
What about the good old kiwi can do attitude. "I can do anything, I'm the worlds best driver I don't need to be told by a namby pamby politician how to drive safely". Or is it the old "get outta my way you idiot I own this piece of road" and "how dare you hold me up" mentality that needs moving along..?

What needs moving along is the attitude that goes something like..."I'll drive how I like, and bugger the rest of you". That covers all the idiots, fast, slow and inconsiderate.

Mikkel

2nd June 2009, 12:14

One of the accidents was a truck trying to avoid a pedestrian. Both were killed, plus a chemical spill to boot.

And the pedestrian was in that situation because they had rolled their car earlier and was walking into town.

I don't know why the ped would be walking in the middle of the road or why the truck would be on the shoulder - either would have to be the case in order for there being any need for evasive action.

I will say this though; if you are driving a motorvehicle - ever the more so a huge truck carrying dangerous goods - and someone steps out in front of you, you have the duty to run over the ped rather than loosing control of your vehicle escalating the consequences.
Swerving to avoid hitting some drunken jaywalker only to risk killing half of the young family heading the opposite way is not good tradeoff.

New Zealand's speed limits are amongst the world's lowest. Why then are our road accidents higher than other comparable countries? Absence of driver training, I would postulate.

No, they are not. In mainland Europe it is very seldom to see speedlimits above 80 km/h for anything less than dual-carriageways seperated by a green and an impact barrier. And they even use proper tarmac and signage. There is however much denser traffic, generally.

That said, the road toll on the German Autobahn - considering the sheer number of motorists and kilometers travelled - is virtually zero and... there's no speedlimit in most places.

I very much agree with your last sentence, education beats badhabits passed on from father to son everytime.

Don't make me come over all righteously indignant.

Why not, it'll probably just piss her off even more?

I don't think it is "driver training" in NZ, as from what I've seen the new young drivers are being well educated in this, especially insofar as the driver training schools go.

While you always will get the occasional wild youth, the issues that confront us are rarely caused by the young. As so many times before you'll see the older generations blame the youth for their own inadequacies. Nothing new in that either.

Hitcher

2nd June 2009, 12:46

I don't think it is "driver training" in NZ, as from what I've seen the new young drivers are being well educated in this, especially insofar as the driver training schools go.

"Insofar as the driver training schools go" is the nub of it. These aren't mandatory, as in some countries. I have no idea what percentage of newly-licensed drivers/riders have received formal training from qualified instructors. I suspect less than half.

The only competence required is that which is necessary to pass a license, although even that is debateable, given the knowledge of English necessary for such which is clearly absent in many seemingly accomplished drivers.

Edbear

2nd June 2009, 12:53

"Insofar as the driver training schools go" is the nub of it. These aren't mandatory, as in some countries. I have no idea what percentage of newly-licensed drivers/riders have received formal training from qualified instructors. I suspect less than half.

The only competence required is that which is necessary to pass a license, although even that is debateable, given the knowledge of English necessary for such which is clearly absent in many seemingly accomplished drivers.

I agree, which is why I opined they should be. I also did a defensive driving course which stood me in good stead over the years and this should also be part of learning to drive. A recent episode of a TV program on emergency services featured a young lady who broke her leg when a car pulled out in front of her. Her comment afterwards was that it had taught her to be more aware of her environment and to be ready for such. Perhaps an accident that she may have been better able to avoid had she done a course?

But it is plainly obvious that many drivers are blissfully unaware that they are behind the wheel of a moving vehicle as they engage in all manner of activities unrelated to driving.

FJRider

2nd June 2009, 17:59

The only competence required is that which is necessary to pass a license, although even that is debateable, given the knowledge of English necessary for such which is clearly absent in many seemingly accomplished drivers.

Perhaps more emphasis should be put on better instruction on hand signals ....

ie. :niceone: :nono: :bye: :finger: :slap: :tugger: :scratch: :weird: :Punk: :clap:

Was that a Hitcher spelling mistake .... ????

peasea

2nd June 2009, 18:55

My theory is that the focus has been on speeding (any forms) at the expense of improving driver training (which includes inappropriate speeding). There is, of course, no revenue in doing it any other way.

My theory also is that newer (and therefore safer) vehicles and vehicle technology ( better tyres, ABS, etc) have been the main reason for the road toll reducing. Because NZers still drive like idiots, that reduction has plateaued somewhat.

People who can't drive therefore deduce that because they are driving at below the limit and they aren't drunk and their vehicle got a new WOF 5 months ago, they they are perfectly safe.

Couldn't agree more. Speeding can be recorded by a tested (supposedly accurate) machine, whereas doing something completely stupid will entail the courts taking the word of the copper who witnessed the stupid act. These days the cops are pretty good at doing stupid things on the road themselves, such as u-turns on State Highways....(http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/2464744/Cops-crash-in-spotlight) so their credibility is questionable at best.

With that in mind, the law (ass or not) is more likely to accept that someone was speeding when the act was recorded via a 'trusted' method. When the cops (if the cops) manage to recoup some the trust/faith that has been lost in the public's eye through constant bungling, bullying and dishonesty then their finger-pointing might have greater credibility. At the same time those who pull dumb-arse stunts on public roads could more often end up being prosecuted. Don't hold your breath though.

It could be that carrying a video camera at all times could come in handy. (I was overtaken by a complete idiot this morning, wish I'd taped that but it's a bugger trying to operate a Handicam in winter gloves.)

Driver education is seriously lacking in NZ and the one thing that really stands out is the general public's inability to drive to the conditions.

peasea

2nd June 2009, 18:58

Perhaps more emphasis should be put on better instruction on hand signals ....

ie. :niceone: :nono: :bye: :finger: :slap: :tugger: :scratch: :weird: :Punk: :clap:

Was that a Hitcher spelling mistake .... ????

There's no 'e' in debatable in my 'Websters' matey. I'm with H.

peasea

2nd June 2009, 19:03

But it is plainly obvious that many drivers are blissfully unaware that they are behind the wheel of a moving vehicle as they engage in all manner of activities unrelated to driving.

Especially the younger drivers. (Texting, brushing hair, applying makeup etc, and that's just the boy racers.) It's sad that something serious has to happen to wake them up and in some cases they don't wake up, ever. I don't have any problem with the banning of handheld cell phones while driving but what about cabbies and truckies on their RT's? Couriers? Coppers? (Oops, just had to slip that one in.....)