Staying alive on the road.

[FROSTY]

Folks I'm a total advocate for the principle of "owning" your bit of the road.
By that I recomend riding in or about the right hand wheel track on a open bit of single lane road.
But there is a second part to this
SCAN for danger-- Look forwards,Look at ya speedo look in mirror look to the right then to the left.In the city this is DEFINITELY gonna keep you alive (and keeping licence)
It might be a suprise but out in the country itll do the same.
Its really easy to become tunnel visioned and simply not see a tractor coming out of a driveway or that mack truck full of logs following on your back bumper.
Another thing is PLEASE forget all the IM IN THE RIGHT attitude.
Theres a very old saying. Little Johnny was the most right fella in the cemetry.
Yes you have every right to be on the road but giving way to a bigger vehicle isn't a sin its survival. Same as pulling over in a safe place to let a faster vehicle past.

Hey come on KB and moan as much as ya want about that inconciderate barsteward who pulled out or tailgated or whatever. but FIRST get outa danger.

My father gave me a bit of advice I have never forgotten.
Ride your bike as if EVERYONE and EVERYTHING IS OUT TO KILL you.

[Laxi]

thats why peripheral (get me hitch:bleh:) vision is part of your bhs test, its a skill that any biker has to master if they want to survive long. (everything and everyone is out to get us:laugh:

[FROSTY]

I apologise if I sound sanctimonious (sp) to experienced bikers here.
This is aimed more at the newer riders

[crazyhorse]

Folks I'm a total advocate for the principle of "owning" your bit of the road.
By that I recomend riding in or about the right hand wheel track on a open bit of single lane road.
But there is a second part to this
SCAN -- Look forwards,Look at ya speedo look in mirror look to the right then to the left.In the city this is DEFINITELY gonna keep you alive (and keeping licence)
It might be a suprise but out in the country itll do the same.
Its really easy to become tunnel visioned and simply not see a tractor coming out of a driveway or that mack truck full of logs following on your back bumper.
Another thing is PLEASE forget all the IM IN THE RIGHT attitude.
Theres a very old saying. Little Johnny was the most right fella in the cemetry.
Yes you have every right to be on the road but giving way to a bigger vehicle isn't a sin its survival. Same as pulling over in a safe place to let a faster vehicle past.

Hey come on KB and moan as much as ya want about that inconciderate barsteward who pulled out or tailgated or whatever. but FIRST get outa danger.

My father gave me a bit of advice I have never forgotten.
Ride your bike as if EVERYONE and EVERYTHING IS OUT TO KILL you.

I was always taught that when you ride, you ride to expect the unexpected. If you live in the Country, you appreciate what cones on the road really mean, and how cockies just pull out of driveways because 9 times out of 10, nothing is on the road. City riders are the worst, come around a corner, meet a mob of cattle and say "what cones?"

[Ecclesnz]

I apologise if I sound sanctimonious (sp) to experienced bikers here.
This is aimed more at the newer riders
Experienced riders should be able to recognise the wisdom of your advise I would say.

[Danae]

I'll take this to heart whenever I get on my scoot and as soon as I get on my bike :2thumbsup

[98tls]

I apologise if I sound sanctimonious (sp) to experienced bikers here.
This is aimed more at the newer riders Be as sanctimonis(spelling) as you like Frosty its all good,i am pretty experienced ie 38 bikes in 46 years,my old mans advice was "if your not having the odd bin your not going fast enough" or "when your 40 odd you can call yourself talented,the way your going you never will":blink:etc,dont get me wrong the guy was/is a very good rider still,just looking back on some of his advice :bash:Young fellas reading this.........listen to Frosty.

[Cheshire Cat]

My father gave me a bit of advice I have never forgotten.
Ride your bike as if EVERYONE and EVERYTHING IS OUT TO KILL you.

Or as if you are invisible (as my mother says):D

[Ragingrob]

Or as if you are invisible (as my mother says):D

Come to Auckland, you ain't invisible, people spot you and go in for the kill :wari:

[Cheshire Cat]

Come to Auckland, you ain't invisible, people spot you and go in for the kill :wari:

:blink: Oh they well gonna get beaten!!

[Mully]

Onya Frosty.

Good advice for an experience level.

As some smart person once wrote; "The price of biking is eternal vigilence"

[monkeymcbean]

Cheers Frosty on your post.



"The Bikers Bible" by Graham Allardice

excert: pg 65

Avoiding Crashes.

If your involved in a crash the chances are that in almost all cases it will be your fault. :eek:

The reason why I say this is that probably you'll have been guilty of:

Ignorance
Lack of skill
Lack of observation
Lack of anticipation
Failure to maintan your safety zone
Failure to identify an escape route
Failure to maintain your bike properly

If you accept that observation, you're more likely to take whatever measures are required to avoid crashes.

For me this was the best bit of wake up call reading in that it was up to me to take responsiblity for myself and not get so angry at other road users.

[YellowDog]

The day we start to think we know it all and that there is no need for anyone to state the 'bleeding obvious' - This will be the day we start to become a danger to ourselves.

Keepem coming Frosty. I see bad riders every day and its not always in my mirrror whilst combing what's left of my hair.

[sinfull]

38 bikes in 46 years, the odd bin The odd bin ?

[bikemike]

You don't own the road by riding in the right wheel track, you become enslaved.
(I assumed Frosty meant single carriageway? A single lane, two way? right wheel track, maybe not!)


By that I recomend riding in or about the right hand wheel track on a open bit of single lane road.

What does own the road mean anyway? I don't think that playing follow my leader is going to make anyone think you own the road, even if you want them to. Someone driving behind might dismiss you and begin to focus on the vehicle in front of you, they might be frustrated that you are obscuring their view of the oncoming traffic, and so on. What you do want is to show confidence, awareness and control. You do this by using the appropriate speed, signals, body and bike position - for the situation. You may right the right wheel track, or right up to the crown, or over at the shoulder. You want other road users to be aware of you, to respect you and to avoid hitting you. You want them to know that you know they are there, and to show that you know what they are going to do (or not do) before they do it.

And,

Ride your bike as if EVERYONE and EVERYTHING IS OUT TO KILL you.
I prefer this :
Ride your bike as if YOU ARE INVISIBLE
Neither are true but the second is closer to the truth, and, it helps with the following...


take responsibility for myself and not get so angry at other road users.

If you ride as if you are invisible the adrenaline and focus is up, just like it might be if you think everyone is out to get you. It's important though to take away the personal aspect and prevent yourself from going into battle, taking revenge, showing who's boss.

Therefore I can agree with the rest, of course :-)

SCAN -- Look forwards,Look at ya speedo look in mirror look to the right then to the left.In the city this is DEFINITELY gonna keep you alive (and keeping licence)
It might be a suprise but out in the country itll do the same.
Its really easy to become tunnel visioned and simply not see a tractor coming out of a driveway or that mack truck full of logs following on your back bumper.
Another thing is PLEASE forget all the IM IN THE RIGHT attitude.
Theres a very old saying. Little Johnny was the most right fella in the cemetry.
Yes you have every right to be on the road but giving way to a bigger vehicle isn't a sin its survival. Same as pulling over in a safe place to let a faster vehicle past.

Hey come on KB and moan as much as ya want about that inconciderate barsteward who pulled out or tailgated or whatever. but FIRST get outa danger.

[MSTRS]

The odd bin ?
Google is your friend.
I think he meant that some bikes are dogs...
<img src=http://www.nightguide.co.za/TheOddBinPics/!image006.jpg>

[sinfull]

Google is your friend.
I think he meant that some bikes are dogs...
>
Yeah i know lol Was taking the piss 98 have complete faith in his riding ability !

[FROSTY]

Mike
Heres the thing I've found over the years.If I try to introduce too much information to a trainee they get confused.
What you are saying about right wheel track I as an experienced rider totally agree with. BUT MOST of the time its the right place to be.
So by applying the KISS (keep it simple stupid) theory it gives newer riders the greatest chance of survival.
Simple clearcut rules that work.
Things do change once a rider has some experience under their belt.

What I love is when a rider whose just got a bit of experience comes to me and says --Hey Frosty ya know you told me to -(for example) ride in the right wheel track.On a ride yesterday I watched The Stranger (a pretty experienced rider) and he was all over our side of the road -left n right --whys he doin that??
It means to me the rider has moved beyond the basic mechanical skill of how to operate a clutch n brakes n gears and can start concidering variables.

BY the way --knowing when to start telling them more info YEA RIGHT wish I knew that one but I prefer to err on the side of caution

[98tls]

The odd bin ? As in binned it,dropped it,bent it.

[duckonin]

Yep Frosty, you have it sussed, hard to take some knowledge further with advice...Had a young fella helping out on the farm once, asked him to open the gate and stand back a few feet to let the deer through, should of said 100 metre's as I watched him count off a few feet....had to laugh at that..

So yes some do take advice literally...Have had a few say to me over the years "U seem to be all over the road"...Yep I would say, for if I had seen a car coming out of a side road on my left whilst following a vehicle then I would move hard to the left to try and make sure the driver seen me too..and as most would know so on and so on...Be on the road where you can "see and be seen"

The want to survive helps the younger ones out, a lot will read what they want to know, not many ask Questions, so it is important that any advice given or written is correct..

Good posting:niceone:

[16silver]

You don't own the road by riding in the right wheel track, you become enslaved.
(I assumed Frosty meant single carriageway? A single lane, two way? right wheel track, maybe not!)



What does own the road mean anyway? I don't think that playing follow my leader is going to make anyone think you own the road, even if you want them to. Someone driving behind might dismiss you and begin to focus on the vehicle in front of you, they might be frustrated that you are obscuring their view of the oncoming traffic, and so on. What you do want is to show confidence, awareness and control. You do this by using the appropriate speed, signals, body and bike position - for the situation. You may right the right wheel track, or right up to the crown, or over at the shoulder. You want other road users to be aware of you, to respect you and to avoid hitting you. You want them to know that you know they are there, and to show that you know what they are going to do (or not do) before they do it.

And,

I prefer this :
Ride your bike as if YOU ARE INVISIBLE
Neither are true but the second is closer to the truth, and, it helps with the following...



If you ride as if you are invisible the adrenaline and focus is up, just like it might be if you think everyone is out to get you. It's important though to take away the personal aspect and prevent yourself from going into battle, taking revenge, showing who's boss.

Therefore I can agree with the rest, of course :-)

this isn't a battle of who can give the best advice, it was simply some helpful advice, although you have your own views and the right to criticize you shouldn't be flaming him for some helpful advice

[bikemike]

Hey, I'm not flaming. I'm well aware Frosty is a popular and passionate supporter of riding safely.

But this is a forum. A forum is a place to discuss different point of view as well as share knowledge.

This is what we are doing. I'm sure Frosty isn't offended.

[16silver]

Hey, I'm not flaming. I'm well aware Frosty is a popular and passionate supporter of riding safely.

But this is a forum. A forum is a place to discuss different point of view as well as share knowledge.

This is what we are doing. I'm sure Frosty isn't offended.
ok, jut looked a bit agressive that all :P

[bikemike]

I've taught two people to ride from scratch, and turned another around from a careless and naive commuter into a very good exponent and enthusiast for riding safely.

One of my charges was my, now, wife.

The two I taught have ridden without mishap.

My data may be skewed as they are all graduates, and over 30. Perhaps younger minds need more rules, but those I spend time with need to know the realities so that they can apply themselves.
I remember myself holding in contempt those that taught me physics at school; giving forth on a first level theory and then when asking about where I thought the theory broke down, being told I'd find that out at college. Then at college, the new theory broke down and I was told I'd find out more at university. I wish they had told me the realities, and explained why the basic theory was worth knowing. Then I could use that model appropriately, looking out for anomalies and coming to understand things rather than coming to find things were false.

I feel very strongly that there is no need to tell new riders that everyone is out to kill them, or to ride as if they are.

I wouldn't underestimate new riders, but I would take the simplistic approach if it's clear the principle is not understood and coax them up gently. I've not found it necessary.
Edit - and any aggression was inferred only, not meant or implied.

[Katman]

"The Bikers Bible" by Graham Allardice

excert: pg 65

Avoiding Crashes.

If you're involved in a crash the chances are that in almost all cases it will be your fault.
The reason why I say this is that probably you'll have been guilty of:

Ignorance
Lack of skill
Lack of observation
Lack of anticipation
Failure to maintan your safety zone
Failure to identify an escape route
Failure to maintain your bike properly

If you accept that observation, you're more likely to take whatever measures are required to avoid crashes.



Now imagine the outrage if I'd said that.

:whistle:

[samgab]

Now imagine the outrage if I'd said that.

:whistle:

You should write a book and get the respect you deserve ;)
No, but you, and Frosty, and several of the others are right; if I have a collision or fall off, I'VE done something wrong more likely than not.

Frosty's advice of riding in the position on the road that most drivers would be sitting in, in their car, seems good for most commuting. It's also what the guy who assessed my restricted licence test advised me to do.

Frosty, I have my Full test in less than two weeks: are you planning to come to this week's Wed NASS? I wouldn't mind someone experienced following me on the ride and being extra (constructively-) critical...

[FROSTY]

sorry sam I've been down with the bot. Huddled in a warm office all week.

[samgab]

sorry sam I've been down with the bot. Huddled in a warm office all week.

Sorry to hear that mate. Hope ya feel better soon.

[carver]

we own the road....

[madbikeboy]

I feel very strongly that there is no need to tell new riders that everyone is out to kill them, or to ride as if they are.


I read your post(s) and wondered if your mommy breastfed you too long.

It seems to me, that having the mindset of being proactively engaged in looking for danger is the key. The young riders, newbies, or even born agains need to understand that they are in danger, this age old advice of "watch out, they're out to kill you" sounds extreme, but it's not. Unintentional, stupid, intentional - whatever, people have tried in many creative ways to bump me and Scoot off the face of the planet.

Newbies, I'd be disregarding any advice that doesn't come from the more experienced riders on this site. KatMan, Frosty, or most all of the riders with a green ME beside their name denoting mentors - all good places for advice.

One other piece of advice from me - always have an escape plan - if he does this, I will do that. If you ever find yourself whistling and thinking of what's for dinner when you get home, you're not well enough engaged mentally, and something will bite you.

MBB

[caseye]

While expounding the nasty traits of motorists in cars may not be ideal, to Not tell someone who to watch out for is a greater sin, least I think it is.
New riders, even old and re entering the scene riders simply have no idea of the amount of crap they are going to have to deal with everytime they take their bike out on the road.
I totally agree with the idea that if you find yourself whistling or not paying attention then something IS Going to happen to you.
Used to be that was a might happen, many more vehicles on the roads these
days and so many of them driven/piloted by uncomprehending fools.
Not to make a rider aware of this is tantamount to handing them a death sentence.

[FROSTY]

Mike I really think we are reading from the same prayer book just saying it a different way.
I also suspect that your students were in a more country enviroment whereas mine tend to be in the big city ,heavy traffic enviroment.
I genuinely believe that getting the subconcios (sp) mindset that they are all out to kill me is a good one for city riding.

[GOONR]

I'm one of the older (almost 40) people getting back in to riding. I have seen on various sites that I am in one of the highest crash categories so any (good) advice is appreciated and will be taken on board.

I used to ride in London. A long time ago but central London even back then was manic and yes, it did feel like everyone was out to get you. I know that wasn't really the case as I would find it hard to believe that people would wake up in the morning and go "I think I'll hit a bike today". BUT I always left the house with the thought that they could take me out and kept that thought until I turned the bike off and put it on the stand.

[bikemike]

I read your post(s) and wondered if your mommy breastfed you too long. :Offtopic: Bottle fed, unfortunately. Ah, that must be it...

Still, I seem to have hit a nerve.


Newbies, I'd be disregarding any advice that doesn't come from the more experienced riders on this site. KatMan, Frosty, or most all of the riders with a green ME beside their name denoting mentors - all good places for advice.
MBB

As it happens, I have been riding for 26 years.
I've never had an accident of any kind, on the road.
I've ridden on track, off road, on road. Taken courses, read, studied, practised, and taught, a little.
I don't have an ME on my sign, perhaps I should, perhaps I don't deserve one, but either way if I did, would it make my opinion or experience any more or less valuable, relevant, or in particular, debatable?


Mike I really think we are reading from the same prayer book just saying it a different way.
I also suspect that your students were in a more country enviroment whereas mine tend to be in the big city ,heavy traffic enviroment.
I genuinely believe that getting the subconcios (sp) mindset that they are all out to kill me is a good one for city riding.

I hope so, mostly. I just take issue with the out to kill me idea.
No, all city.
And I still disagree. A couple of others' posts seem to miss the point that I agree we all need to be super alert, who wouldn't. The point is, or my point is, I think it's more constructive to put the fear in a believable context; that you are invisible.


Put it this way. Mr New Bee gets the sage advise to ride as if everyone is out to kill him. He rides with that in mind under tuition and guidance for some time and then begins to head out on his own and start developing his riding skills on his own initiative. Some time later he begins to realise that in fact he hasn't had a single road user try to kill him. Not one. Consciously or subconsciously he acknowledges that they aren't, and he's doing just fine thank you. This unfortunately coincides with that precious and dangerous period where confidence increases at a faster rate than the required ability. What rule to follow now?

Ms New Bee gets different advice; that she should ride as if she might be invisible, that even those road users who appear to have flashed lights, waved hands, or even stared right into her own eyes have in fact not seen her. She rides with that in mind under tuition and guidance for some time and see that indeed, 'tis true, time and again, 'people just canny see me'! Now she begins to head out on her own and start developing her riding skills on her own initiative. Some time later she begins to realise that in fact she hasn't had a single accident but, she still sees cases of partial blindness, almost every frigging ride. Now she begins to take control. She knows that she sees what others do not see.

OK, needs clarity, but doesn't anyone see my point?

Frosty, it's not you, I don't know you from Adam, it's just the point of view - which appears to be the most prevalent one on here also. :mellow:

[one fast tl1ooo]

It also pays to watch out for road cones - they can mean one of two things - stock on the road - or road works.

Often you are concentrating on the road, and its easy not to take notice, but its esstential to keep watch

[GOONR]

A couple of others' posts seem to miss the point that I agree we all need to be super alert, who wouldn't. The point is, or my point is, I think it's more constructive to put the fear in a believable context; that you are invisible....

......EDITED......

.....but doesn't anyone see my point?

I see where you are coming from. <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="Picture_x0020_1" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" style='width:15pt; height:15pt;visibility:visible;mso-wrap-style:square'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\BLACKS~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image001.gif" o:title="smile"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->:)

Personally I believe that both ways of saying be vigilant at all times are valid, if we only had one way of saying something then certain people just wouldn't get the point of the message. I guess at the end of the day it is up to the person receiving the advise to understand what it really means.

[MSTRS]

I guess at the end of the day it is up to the person receiving the advise to understand what it really means.

More pertinent would be for the person GIVING the advise to be clear, concise, accurate and realistic.

[FROSTY]

More pertinent would be for the person GIVING the advise to be clear, concise, accurate and realistic.
Yup I agree. Unfortunately it seems to be that to get through to the "YOOF" of today as a rule you need something thats gonna get the message across clear as a bell. cos dead is as they say dead.

[Katman]

'Owning your bit of road' is certainly not defined by 'riding in the right hand wheel track'. 'Owning your bit of road' is defined by riding with confidence, controlled assertion and total awareness.