Ttxgp @ iomtt

[GSVR]

First practice for these bikes is on Race day 2.

http://ttxgp.com/

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/motoczysz-e1pc-breaks-cover/

[Ivan]

now that is odd.
The day the petrol bikes arnt racing will be a sad day indeed

[Shaun]

It is a god dam jke having them here. This place is a hazard weighting to happen, and the British media are scum with the way the attack it with passion to market the negatives of the place

So why the FUCK bring some thing like that here? The TT itself is NOT going to gain any good PR from it, just the green people will gain, but IF a negative takes place, the Media is going to trash the place again.

I am a dummy who left school at 14, and even I know this?

[roadracingoldfart]

It is a god dam jke having them here. This place is a hazard weighting to happen, and the British media are scum with the way the attack it with passion to market the negatives of the place

So why the FUCK bring some thing like that here? The TT itself is NOT going to gain any good PR from it, just the green people will gain, but IF a negative takes place, the Media is going to trash the place again.

I am a dummy who left school at 14, and even I know this?


People said the same about 4 strokes Shaun , why the anti ??

PS ; i left school at 15 1/2 but that dosnt mean im a dummy.

[Shaun]

People said the same about 4 strokes Shaun , why the anti ??

PS ; i left school at 15 1/2 but that dosnt mean im a dummy.


English mate, all in my first comment on it!

[codgyoleracer]

When the batteries get to be 10% in size & weight of what they are on this machine & have double the power - these things could be the future. Looking at the progress of battery technology even in the last 10 years or so - an electric GSXR1000 beater may not be that far away.......
Made in England aint the problem - the poms have proven to themselves in the past to be one of the most innovative countries for groundbreaking mechanical inventions in the world, - admittidly though - they have been poor performers in developing & retaining that invented technology on occasions :niceone:

[R6_kid]

now that is odd.
The day the petrol bikes arnt racing will be a sad day indeed

You and I will most likely be in our graves by then mate.

[SWERVE]

the technology is certainly out there
the yanks have already raced an an electric drag bike.... somewhere in the region of 190mph quarters in the 7 second bracket.:eek:
And you can bet most of the top techs on that team are from the UK.

[GSVR]

Just read this in the TT forums:

"RE: TTXGP

Well I have just witnessed the first TTXGP practice and it went well
102 on Sulby straight and and average of 80+ is a great start

and what a reception from spectators! "


Averaging almost 100mph around there would not be bad for an electric bike. Wonder how flat the batteries where after this practice. These things might have a bit more in the tank yet!

Practice results reports etc here:
http://blog.ttxgp.com/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=59&blogId=1

Interesting Paul Dobbs is riding the 10th qualified bike.

[Ivan]

You and I will most likely be in our graves by then mate.

good.

haha I dont want to see the the sound of a sewing machine going nuts all day long

[gav]

The winning bike averaged 85mph around the island, thats not too shabby.
Remember how everyone laughed at those little Japanese bikes, a what? a Honda? 50 years ago .... And how about a diesel racing at LeMans? No friggen chance.......what? They've since won? How the hell that happen then?
Wonder how fast those electric bikes will be lapping in 5 years time?

[lostinflyz]

ah the technology aint really there. well the tech is but not in any way you can afford - we can make immense power units but they cost billions.

Wade Enright from the uni of canterbury is a mad bike nutter and a mad genious. he told us that elec. drag bikes are easy and could be stupidly quick but hanging on to the prick would be basically impossible as you would get full power instantanously. but that would be done from a massive capacitor or something rather than batteries.

but anyway screw the TTX, bring on the senior TT and the Norton NRV588

[GSVR]

ah the technology aint really there. well the tech is but not in any way you can afford - we can make immense power units but they cost billions.

From what I gather from this embryo stage of electric bikes there are only two classes. One is the PRO class where you can do amost anything and have an unlimitied budget. The other class is called the "OPEN" class where there is a 20,000 pound buy back rule in place.
As you can can see with a $50000NZ buyback its still very serious but allows the backyard innovator a look in. If the bike is bought the intellectual property is still owned by the builder.

NZ was a key innovator with VSD type drives a few years ago. As far as storage cells goes there is some serious stuff going on with lithium phosphate etc (not in NZ).

Bit like when the first motorcars where invented they cost a full years wages for the average person.

Interesting times. Just look at GM or Ford or A123.

Oh and Gav that was a practice not the race so I hope to see some improvement as that must be the first time these bikes have seen the circuit!

[merv]

Hey you want to make them sound right, just wire up some form of Bose speakers or something and make them sound brmm brmm haha :clap:.

I'd say don't laugh, just like said above they laughed at Honda in 1959 and slowly but surely the Pommy industry died and Mike the bike won the 250TT on a Honda only 2 years later.

[GSVR]

Electric motors are not so different from gas engines. They suffer from overheating. They have torque curves etc. Most high tech gas engines are controlled by an electric ECU and if the motor/engine is electric this can be made super responsive.
Having been around electric driven stuff for years I know too well the weaknesses and strengths. For daily commutes, deliveries, and short trips the electric vehicle is very cool for many reasons. As for performance its relative to the application.

But something tells me once electric cars get good the cost of electricity will increase inline with the cost of Gasoline. Bastard capitalists!

[bogan]

Electric motors are not so different from gas engines. They suffer from overheating. They have torque curves etc. Most high tech gas engines are controlled by an electric ECU and if the motor/engine is electric this can be made super responsive.
Having been around electric driven stuff for years I know too well the weaknesses and strengths. For daily commutes, deliveries, and short trips the electric vehicle is very cool for many reasons. As for performance its relative to the application.

But something tells me once electric cars get good the cost of electricity will increase inline with the cost of Gasoline. Bastard capitalists!

torque curve is generally a torque flat line, but i see your point. The only major difference (once they sort the energy storage) is the lack of sound.

[paturoa]

More about all of the bikes here
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/motorsports/4321394.html

[Rcktfsh]

Just read this in the TT forums:

"RE: TTXGP

Well I have just witnessed the first TTXGP practice and it went well
102 on Sulby straight and and average of 80+ is a great start

and what a reception from spectators! "


Averaging almost 100mph around there would not be bad for an electric bike. Wonder how flat the batteries where after this practice. These things might have a bit more in the tank yet!

Practice results reports etc here:
http://blog.ttxgp.com/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=59&blogId=1

Interesting Paul Dobbs is riding the 10th qualified bike.

To be fare a 80mph+ average is hardly exciting particularly when you consider Hugh Anderson averaged 96.82 mph back in 1966 on a 125.

[bogan]

just watched some ttxgp footage (would like some more if anyone else finds anything) from the main website http://www.ttxgp.com/index_nav.php?page=livecams, was quite impressed. Sure the power is down but technology will overcome that eventually, the bits i was impressed with was how similar it is to normal bikes, there is still the motor sound, albeit in a slighty different frequency, bikes look much the same, handling is much the same apparently (bikes slightly heavier though i think) and the team agni rider sounds like he had a blast.
I cant wait to have a go on a proper electric bike

[GSVR]

To be fare a 80mph+ average is hardly exciting particularly when you consider Hugh Anderson averaged 96.82 mph back in 1966 on a 125.

And even worse when you consider Glen Curtis was doing 136.4 MPH in 1907 (Over one hundred years ago!).

Good thing they aren't solar powered aye!

[GSVR]

More about all of the bikes here
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/motorsports/4321394.html

Cool link. Interesting to read that one of these bikes is running Lithium Polymer Cells. That would be interesting if the pack decided to ignite itself due to high load or some other cause.

[Rcktfsh]

And even worse when you consider Glen Curtis was doing 136.4 MPH in 1907 (Over one hundred years ago!).

Good thing they aren't solar powered aye!

Hate to let the facts get in the way of a good story but 1907 results were

1907 results Charlie Collier 1st Matchless total time 4hr8min8secs avg speed 38.21mph in the single cylinder race 17 starters 8 finishers
and
Rem Fowler Norton 1st 4hr21min52secs avg speed 36.21 mph in the twin cylinder race 8 starters 4 finishers.

No mention of a Glen Curtis, assume you are talking IOM or otherwise a bit hard to see relevance?

[cowpoos]

Cool link. Interesting to read that one of these bikes is running Lithium Polymer Cells. That would be interesting if the pack decided to ignite itself due to high load or some other cause.
huh??? why?

[GSVR]

Hate to let the facts get in the way of a good story but 1907 results were

1907 results Charlie Collier 1st Matchless total time 4hr8min8secs avg speed 38.21mph in the single cylinder race 17 starters 8 finishers
and
Rem Fowler Norton 1st 4hr21min52secs avg speed 36.21 mph in the twin cylinder race 8 starters 4 finishers.

No mention of a Glen Curtis, assume you are talking IOM or otherwise a bit hard to see relevance?

Sorry Rocketfish.

I was struggling to see the relevance of Hugh Anderson on a 125 in 1966. Like what speeds where the electric bikes doing around the TT circuit in 66?

Thanks for pointing out that the first petroleum propelled bikes where heaps slower when they first appeared at the TT.

[GSVR]

huh??? why?

You do chemistry at school? Lithium burns like magnesium ribbon. Or just search for lithium fires somewhere.

Probably the biggest advantage the A123 cells (Lithium Nano Phosphate) have is they are very inert.

Or where you asking whats interesting about the page?

[oldguy]

What gets me is Ok zero emissions, but with a world of battery powered just about everything, what the F**k do we do with the battery's when they come to there life's end, throw them in land fill's. Wheres the Green in that.

[GSVR]

What gets me is Ok zero emissions, but with a world of battery powered just about everything, what the F**k do we do with the battery's when they come to there life's end, throw them in land fill's. Wheres the Green in that.

Interesting question. And theres many angles to this.The old battery technolgies where very bad for the inviroment. Heavy metals like lead and cadmium where bad but lithium is pretty safe.

One aspect of an electric car is no oil changes and waste oil. Not seen on these bikes but I'm sure eventually no brake pads to wear out and the engines wont wear out either so no where near as many wreckers filled with steel that needs to be resmeltered. Maybe manufacturers will make cars that last as long as other electrical appliances.

Only issue I see is the production of huge amounts of electrical energy. Coal fired power stations would defeat the whole purpose.

Would be nice to go to an electric race bike meet and not have to ever worry about a crash that leaves oil all over the track. And if these bikes can already do a lap at the TT they could do the average race in NZ easily already. And if the races where half as long the performance would alot higher as half the battery capacity could be used or twice the load on them could be achieved.

I think it was stated the winning bike cost $30000US to build. All the expense would be in batteries and drive.

[bogan]

What gets me is Ok zero emissions, but with a world of battery powered just about everything, what the F**k do we do with the battery's when they come to there life's end, throw them in land fill's. Wheres the Green in that.

find ways to recycle the batterys, most of the chemicals in them can be reused/revitalised again i believe

[merv]

What gets me is Ok zero emissions, but with a world of battery powered just about everything, what the F**k do we do with the battery's when they come to there life's end, throw them in land fill's. Wheres the Green in that.

Zero emission when they are running but what about the emissions required to generate the power required to charge the batteries, make the batteries etc if everyone wants electric everything. Hmmm nuclear power required :shifty:

[bogan]

The problem at the moment is two-fold and evs will solve at least one.
1) the petrol supply is running out, and if we dont have an alternative the human world will be seriously fucked.
2) human pollution is fucking up the nature world, and if that shits out we are done for too!

so even if they just move pollution somewhere else they are still saving the world, and localising the pollution sites will also make them easier to deal with, or just move them to the moon or summat.

[James Deuce]

Oh tosh. More petrochemicals/hydrocarbons are used in manufacturing "stuff" and generating electricity than used to power transport.

Out biggest problem in regard to dinosaur juice running out isn't vehicular modes of transport. All the basic building blocks of "western" life rely on hydrocarbons for manufacture.

Battery powered vehicles simply push the consumption of petrochemicals and hydrocarbons back to the generation point. They're still needed to make the vehicles as well. Everything from circuit boards and plastics, to tyres and bearings require the use of petrochemicals.

Battery powered EVs are for shallow conservationists who believe the crap clipboard carrying hippies spout in the street in an attempt to empty your wallet.

[GSVR]

Excellent post Jim. Nice to have someone balancing out the pros and cons.

Do you reacon the smog cloud over most large modern cities is caused by vehicles or something else!

Once you look into this EVs make sense for most motorists that sit in traffic jams to get less than 30km to work and back. Hybrids for people that aren't in a hurry and GSXRs for people that do trackdays or want to collect speeding tickets!

Yours sincerely,
Socialist Recluse

[wharfy]

Oh tosh. More petrochemicals/hydrocarbons are used in manufacturing "stuff" and generating electricity than used to power transport.

Out biggest problem in regard to dinosaur juice running out isn't vehicular modes of transport. All the basic building blocks of "western" life rely on hydrocarbons for manufacture.

Battery powered vehicles simply push the consumption of petrochemicals and hydrocarbons back to the generation point. They're still needed to make the vehicles as well. Everything from circuit boards and plastics, to tyres and bearings require the use of petrochemicals.

Battery powered EVs are for shallow conservationists who believe the crap clipboard carrying hippies spout in the street in an attempt to empty your wallet.

Yes more oil is used to manufacture a modern car or motorcycle than it will ever burn in its life.


Excellent post Jim. Nice to have someone balancing out the pros and cons.

Do you reacon the smog cloud over most large modern cities is caused by vehicles or something else!

Once you look into this EVs make sense for most motorists that sit in traffic jams to get less than 30km to work and back. Hybrids for people that aren't in a hurry and GSXRs for people that do trackdays or want to collect speeding tickets!

Yours sincerely,
Socialist Recluse

Yes vehicles do cause pollution. Wellington is a great place to see this. Normally it is pollution free as the wind blows it all away. On the odd still day you can see a brown haze form along the motorway from the Hutt that coincides nicely with rush hour traffic.

NZ is in the enviable position of having the opportunity to use renewable electricity generation for the majority of it's requirements and cleaning up the coal fired station at Huntly even more (as it is it is pretty hard to tell just from looking whether it is operating or not).

Electric vehicles make a lot of sense - they are clean and quiet and cheap to run (a guy at work here has and electric scooter - looks just like a vespa and is VERY cheap to run)

The big push in trying to solve the waste disposal problems that vehicle manufacture creates is in recycling CRADLE to CRADLE. That is instead of trying to re-cycle manufacturing waste back into the biosphere it is recycled in the technosphere - last years TV becomes next years washing machine. The cost will be in the purchase price - the manufacturer has to take back the product when it's life is over and recycle the materials. A bit like the deposit on glass bottles (I remember when you could get $0.02 from the dairy for an empty drink bottle) I does mean we will pay more as the cost of a fridge will include shipping it back to Germany as well as shipping it here. (Fisher and Pykle might be able to keep manufacture here for the local market).
The other part is to make technology do more than one thing. I. E. a vehicle should not only not cause any pollution while it is running but should actively be cleaning the air. This may sound far fetched but already airline seats are being developed from materials that act as air purifiers so that aircraft don't need to use power to "condition" the air.

I for one am looking forward to the day I can cruise over to Martinborugh for a latte and know that I have scrubbed the carbon from a 1000 cubic meters of air on the way :)

Oh... and the battery powered EV user I know is not shallow about his conservation (or anything actually) and is has a BSc (Hon) in Physics. :)

Personally I do try to do my bit in re-cycling/conservation but am a naturally lazy bastard so I don't always do as much as I could/should/would.
Like the old hippes say - "If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem"

ps. almost half of this post is re-cycled "quoted" :)

[bogan]

Oh tosh. More petrochemicals/hydrocarbons are used in manufacturing "stuff" and generating electricity than used to power transport.

Out biggest problem in regard to dinosaur juice running out isn't vehicular modes of transport. All the basic building blocks of "western" life rely on hydrocarbons for manufacture.

Battery powered vehicles simply push the consumption of petrochemicals and hydrocarbons back to the generation point. They're still needed to make the vehicles as well. Everything from circuit boards and plastics, to tyres and bearings require the use of petrochemicals.

Battery powered EVs are for shallow conservationists who believe the crap clipboard carrying hippies spout in the street in an attempt to empty your wallet.

I disagree, electricity generation does not rely on hydrocarbons, hydro, geothermal and wind are big contributors to the nz supply. And as the dinosaur juice runs out itll be more and more profitable to generate power this way as well. This is for both manufacturing, and power required to run the electric vehicles. Also worth noting is that even at the current state, generating power from hydrocarbons is far more effecient than using it in cars.

And those clipboard carrying hippies have a point you know, beijing banned 1.15m cars before the olympics to reduce smog http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/21/china.olympicgames2008 would this have happend with evs? i think not. aaannnd the money side of things is attractive as well, evs are far cheaper to run than gas guzzlers, so those hippies may indeed be filling your wallet.

[James Deuce]

I disagree, electricity generation does not rely on hydrocarbons, hydro, geothermal and wind are big contributors to the nz supply. And as the dinosaur juice runs out itll be more and more profitable to generate power this way as well. This is for both manufacturing, and power required to run the electric vehicles. Also worth noting is that even at the current state, generating power from hydrocarbons is far more effecient than using it in cars.

And those clipboard carrying hippies have a point you know, beijing banned 1.15m cars before the olympics to reduce smog http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/21/china.olympicgames2008 would this have happend with evs? i think not. aaannnd the money side of things is attractive as well, evs are far cheaper to run than gas guzzlers, so those hippies may indeed be filling your wallet.

You've side stepped the biggest issue and focused entirely on transport again. Transport is the smallest problem we face post peak oil, but in the case of EVs the demand for extra electricity will result in more coal burned in the short term, especially in the US, China, and Russia. Assuming China and Russia actually give a crap.

The only reason China reduced Beijing smog was political and perceptual. I guarantee that Beijing's pollution issue will be worse now than it was before the Olympics. China's pollution issues are horrendous. We seldom see the effect that their huge coal fired power plants have on local eco-systems in China, because we're not allowed to see it.

The biggest issue that we face with peak oil is not what sort of energy will power our vehicles, it will be how we even manufacture those vehicles. And clothes, and packaging, and computers, and door handles, dvds, and paper, and so on and so on.

NZ's Electricity generation is not the issue. Our generation and usage capacity is outstripped by any of the Southern counties in the UK.

Battery powered EVs are not the future. It simply shifts the problem of energy generation elsewhere. Anyone who thinks the power companyis will let us get away with recharging our cars overnight (A vehicle that can travel 60 kms and needs 14 hours recharging is not a viable mode of personal transport) for "a few cents" as the men in homespun jerseys keep telling us will be the reality is smoking something. The recharge point will probably require 3 phase power, meaning a new power output installed in the garage on its own meter that spins visibly many times faster than one on the wall outside.

If a vehicle can't transport the energy it uses to generate propulsion then it's a waste of time. The average bicycle is more capable than any pure EV at present.

[oldguy]

Zero emission when they are running but what about the emissions required to generate the power required to charge the batteries, make the batteries etc if everyone wants electric everything. Hmmm nuclear power required :shifty:

Nuclear power stations, are just oversize battery's, they only have a certain life span, what do they do with the old fuel rods, encase them in concrete and dump them in the deepest part of the ocean, or bury them under ground. how long can they keep doing that.
I got a better idea, sell the fuel rods to North Korea, that will recycle them into nuclear missiles and send them back.

I Watch the hightlights of that TTXGP, about as exciting as watching paint dry, and if you closed your eyes, sounded like you were in a large warehouse where they were racing electric forklifts

[James Deuce]

Nuclear power stations, are just oversize battery's, they only have a certain life span, what do they do with the old fuel rods, encase them in concrete and dump them in the deepest part of the ocean, or bury them under ground. how long can they keep doing that.

Can't use them in NZ yet. They don't make them small enough for our minimum usage.

[bogan]

You've side stepped the biggest issue and focused entirely on transport again. Transport is the smallest problem we face post peak oil, but in the case of EVs the demand for extra electricity will result in more coal burned in the short term, especially in the US, China, and Russia. Assuming China and Russia actually give a crap.

The only reason China reduced Beijing smog was political and perceptual. I guarantee that Beijing's pollution issue will be worse now than it was before the Olympics. China's pollution issues are horrendous. We seldom see the effect that their huge coal fired power plants have on local eco-systems in China, because we're not allowed to see it.

The biggest issue that we face with peak oil is not what sort of energy will power our vehicles, it will be how we even manufacture those vehicles. And clothes, and packaging, and computers, and door handles, dvds, and paper, and so on and so on.

NZ's Electricity generation is not the issue. Our generation and usage capacity is outstripped by any of the Southern counties in the UK.

Battery powered EVs are not the future. It simply shifts the problem of energy generation elsewhere. Anyone who thinks the power companyis will let us get away with recharging our cars overnight (A vehicle that can travel 60 kms and needs 14 hours recharging is not a viable mode of personal transport) for "a few cents" as the men in homespun jerseys keep telling us will be the reality is smoking something. The recharge point will probably require 3 phase power, meaning a new power output installed in the garage on its own meter that spins visibly many times faster than one on the wall outside.

If a vehicle can't transport the energy it uses to generate propulsion then it's a waste of time. The average bicycle is more capable than any pure EV at present.

you have some good points, the ev solution is not going to solve the pollution problem in itself, i still think itll make a large difference though. And changing the transport infrastructure to run on the most commonly available sort of energy (electricity) is a fantastic idea, as it allows generation sites to get more effeciency out of the fossil fuels that would have been burnt inefficiently in cars. As well as passing on the benifits of cleaner power. Power generation is the main source of pollution, but its a lot easier to change a few power plants (when some engineers design newer awesome power) than convert millions of cars to alternate fuel, so we can get started on the cars while we wait for the engineers!

I agree the power companies are gonna want to charge more for electricity used in evs, im not sure how they will be able to do this, most evs can be charged from a single phase power point (well mine will be able to anyway :bleh: and so do other bikes) so itll probly end up with higher registration tax or summat, but not till evs become the majority so we still got quite a few years of cheap motoring yet.

Im not quite sure what you means by manufacturing the vehicle, you mean the raw materials going into them (most now are recyclable) or the power needed to produce them (again, power can be from clean sources as well).

and if battery powered vehichles arent the future what is? cos we are gonna need an alternative fairly soon

[cheesemethod]

I'm dredging up an old thread here, but I just found this article at work today, was an interesting read:

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23172/page1/

[tee]

Bill the inventor showboats to the media, gets some great hookup, and then slightly misjudges his braking marker.......... :2thumbsup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o15EALghp0&feature=related

Bill then decided he should stick to R&D and got someone else to ride it.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVv0NVLFPig&feature=related