Removing wing mirrors...

[Katman]

........and kicking in doors.

What is it that you actually think you're achieving?

Do you really think that the majority of drivers are going to think "Opps, poor motorcyclist - I'll look out for them next time".

Or do you think that perhaps they're more likely to think "Fuck you ya prick, I'll take out the next fucker on a motorcycle who passes me"?

[The Pastor]

i useally think, lols he dosent have a mirror no more

[paturoa]

Stupidity isn't limited to cagers.

[Maki]

Wassamater, did ya just have the mirror of your cage kicked off? If you did I hope it learned you not to mess with bikers! :ar15:

[cynna]

satisfaction - probably in the same way that people rant on in here about how they got cut off

i got charged a few years ago - ended up with diversion, so im a good boy now...

[PirateJafa]

If you clock some chap upside the skull outside a pub while wearing your Repco work shirt, that dude is hardly going to unprovokedly attack the next random person he sees walking along the sidewalk wearing a Repco work shirt.

Same thing applies to the road.

If they see YOU again, they may indeed do something silly. But they're not going to attack just any ol' biker they see, unless they're already substantially more fucked in the head then your average human being, at which point there is no point factoring them into the equation because they're just that - outside of the norm.

[PirateJafa]

:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby: /worldssmallestviolin

[Katman]

If they see YOU again, they may indeed do something silly. But they're not going to attack just any ol' biker they see, unless they're already substantially more fucked in the head then your average human being, at which point there is no point factoring them into the equation because they're just that - outside of the norm.

That's a very naive view of the world that you're blessed with.

[FJRider]

........and kicking in doors.

What is it that you actually think you're achieving?

Do you really think that the majority of drivers are going to think "Opps, poor motorcyclist - I'll look out for them next time".

Or do you think that perhaps they're more likely to think "Fuck you motherfucker, I'll take out the next fucker on a motorcycle who passes me"?

What makes you think there is any real thinking involved ... it's sort of like... an itch that needs scratched ... if it makes you feel good at the time ...

[Katman]

What makes you think there is any real thinking involved ... it's sort of like... an itch that needs scratched ... if it makes you feel good at the time ...

And fuck anyone else who comes along later and gets to deal with the backlash?

[PirateJafa]

That's a very naive view of the world that you're blessed with.
Maybe of whatever world you live on.

'Tis pretty accurate for Earth though.

[SixPackBack]

Sand in the crack Katman?......grumpy coont!

[R6_kid]

I don't think it happens as often as people might make out that it does, I only know of one account where I genuinely believe the person did exactly as they said and took out a mirror.

Truth is Katman, most people in society aren't cold hard killers. You get a few loose units, but the majority of people are so softened by their upbringing that while they may be pissed off at you for taking off their mirror, I doubt that they would go so far as to retaliate.

It is much more understandable that from that point on they will hold a lesser view of motorcyclists in general which doesn't do any good for any of us. Of course in the case of the small percentage of society that have a chip in their shoulder (much like those who kick mirrors and doors) we can only hope that the sentiment passes by before they do something as stupid as the person who kicked their vehicle - and it's more likely to become a drunken bar story about the time a biker kicked his mirror and 'i did XYZ to that mother fucker, you should have seen the look on his face'...

[Timber020]

I do it very seldomly and to drivers who dont use there eyes, and you can bet from that day on they will be at least LOOKING out for bikes, even if its because they hate them. And should they hunt down an kill a motorcyclist, I leave a card to say im buying a Katana next.

[gwigs]

Got to agree with Katman.....As good as it may feel at the time its just not worth it...You dont know what kind of person is in the car ...might be a complete lunatic who wouldnt stop at running over you.....he might just catch you....maybe on a different day..he will remember you and your bike.
Thats besides the legal ramifications: :wacko:

[Katman]

Got to agree with Katman.....As good as it may feel at the time its just not worth it...You dont know what kind of person is in the car ...might be a complete lunatic who wouldnt stop at running over you.....he might just catch you....maybe on a different day..he will remember you and your bike.
Thats besides the legal ramifications: :wacko:

It's not so much the running over of the person who kicked in the door that bothers me but more the fact that once that motorcyclist disappears through the traffic into the distance, the next (innocent) motorcyclist to come along gets to deal with that same fucked off car driver.

[caseye]

what, so we, do nothing at all and let the driver away scott free to do it to another biker?At the very least some attempt at dialogue or emphatic point making must be tried.
To do nothing is tantamount to giving in and simply acknowlediging their size means they get away with it.

[Katman]

At the very least some attempt at dialogue or emphatic point making must be tried.


I agree entirely.

The trick is to acheive education without inciting agitation.

[wbks]

I agree entirely.

The trick is to acheive education without inciting agitation.I couldn't imagine many people would care to be "educated". If not because they are too arrogant, because they get embarrassed and on the back foot because they know they've been caught in the wrong.

[Katman]

I couldn't imagine many people would care to be "educated". If not because they are too arrogant, because they get embarrassed and on the back foot because they know they've been caught in the wrong.

Given the right technique people can be educated without even realising they're being educated.

[Dave Lobster]

Those that think car drivers will remember your bike and you are deluding themselves. WE may recognise one bike from another, but car drivers don't even know the difference between a big scooter and a bike. All helmets look the same.. all bikes are exactly the same.

As for kicking mirrors off.. I haven't kicked any off in this country. Once (accidently) whacked a yellow person's mirror when she swerved into my lane while tapping an important text message. She woke up pretty quickly..

Kicked/punched fucking heaps of them off in the UK. Only had one bloke with balls big enough to get out of his car.. and he soon got back in when I put the stand down and got off the bike.
If someone tries to kill me with their car, the least I can do for them is whack them in the face with a carbon glove. Seems like a fair exchange to me. It's not as if using your fucking eyes before changing lane wears the batteries down.

[Owl]

Given the right technique people can be educated without even realising they're being educated.

I hope you use a better technique than the one you use on here Katman?

[wbks]

Like? Just thinking about it from the person who pulls out in front of you/whatever, it would probably piss you off to get someone who is likely more than a little angry knocking on your window invading your space and you would probably tell them to fuck off? I mean, not that I would do that if one day I ever did pull out in front of someone or something, but I could see how that would happen

[Katman]

Those that think car drivers will remember your bike and you are deluding themselves. WE may recognise one bike from another, but car drivers don't even know the difference between a big scooter and a bike. All helmets look the same.. all bikes are exactly the same.



That is it in a nutshell.

We all get thrown into the same basket as "the fucker that smacked my wing mirror off".

[Dave Lobster]

That is it in a nutshell.

We all get thrown into the same basket as "the fucker that smacked my wing mirror off".

But then, all the asian people that pull across in front of me look the same too.

And every single one looks directly forward, NEVER at me, when I knock on their window to remostrate with them. If they don't look at you, how are they going to recognise you?

[Katman]

But then, all the asian people that pull across in front of me look the same too.



That's right.

And how many times do you hear people saying "fucking asian drivers"?

[wbks]

That's right.

And how many times do you hear people saying "fucking asian drivers"?hahahahah thats a fucking good point :first:

[steve_t]

That's right.

And how many times do you hear people saying "fucking asian drivers"?

But how many people go around ramming asian drivers' cars because they got cut off?
I'm not advocating kicking cars that cut us off... just that I'd like to :beer:

[Katman]

But how many people go around ramming asian drivers' cars because they got cut off?
I'm not advocating kicking cars that cut us off... just that I'd like to :beer:

Fuck's sake. This is like pulling teeth.

Car drivers generally don't willingly play "take that fucker" with other car drivers.

At the end of the day, who do you really think is going to win?

Car drivers or motorcyclists?

[madbikeboy]

Hey KM,

Understand where you're coming from. There have been a couple of occasions, where after a very near miss and the wrong sort of reaction from a driver, where I have sinned. I these very few occasions, the problem wasn't the driver, the problem was the bad angel inside my lid. At the time, they seem reasonable and deserved, but it's a poor practice.

I have on occasion stopped to have a quick chat with a cager. One time was with an old lady, she was out of her depth - a couple of times with middle aged execs, both of who ended up regretting the decision to be mouthy with me, and a couple of times where I've actually pulled keys out ignitions, once with someone who was clearly drunk, the other with someone who seemed drunk or stoned, but super aggressive none the less.

That's in a lot of years riding.

However, it's with buses that I tend to be less than rational - I've been almost killed (and I am the king of understatement, those who know me will attest to this), such blatant disregard and outward aggression has created a very big problem for those drivers..

We ride, therefore shit is going to happen. If I ride with care and space, then less shit happens.

[Katman]

However, it's with buses that I tend to be less than rational - I've been almost killed (and I am the king of understatement, those who know me will attest to this), such blatant disregard and outward aggression has created a very big problem for those drivers..



Believe me Mike, I know, and understand exactly, the personal rage you're talking about.

The reality is though that far more can be acheived, when confronted with idiocy with a business name on it, by complaining directly to that company.

[quickbuck]

Hey KM,

We ride, therefore shit is going to happen. If I ride with care and space, then less shit happens.

All well said. And to add to this... "A Clear Head Space".

To all those that think it is a great success in taking out somebodies mirror because they made an absolute meal of their driving, and almost a meal of you... Well it really achieves NOTHING... Apart from proving that you loose your temper, yes YOUR temper easily, and retaliate by destroying property.

A better man (or woman) would be able to talk rationally with the person who stuffed up... and may even be able to influence them without yelling!

People make mistakes, it is a real shame that some make more than others. We do have to share the road with errant people... Oh, heck we may well be in that population too!
People don't know what they don't know.

[caseye]

I agree entirely.

The trick is to acheive education without inciting agitation.

KM, I'm smiling wryly here, you are 100% right.
It's the bad angels ( as quoted here also) that make it OK to retaliate.
My ones haven't won an arguement about doing something to the driver for many, many years.
Still there are those who can't, won't be educated.
A quick poke in the eye with a burnt stick? perhaps.:calm:

[Katman]

It's the bad angels that make it OK to retaliate.


Getta perrrm.

:msn-wink:

[AllanB]

Was guilty of that when younger - now I'm older if it's that close I'm just happy to have survived.

[ducatilover]

........and kicking in doors.

What is it that you actually think you're achieving?

Do you really think that the majority of drivers are going to think "Opps, poor motorcyclist - I'll look out for them next time".

Or do you think that perhaps they're more likely to think "Fuck you motherfucker, I'll take out the next fucker on a motorcycle who passes me"?
When they purposefully try to run me down I tend to be a little wound up that some selected fuck stick has decided that he will willingly risk my life or health and happily live with the consequences. Having been hit before by somebody on purpose I tend not to be amused and will damage them or if they are unwilling to step out I shall damage their vehicle. :whistle: Acheiving nothing I know of yet, but, knowing that said twat may think twice next time before hitting me or attempting to push me into a curb.

[Ixion]

Mr Katman, I think that you have an overly benevolent opinion of human nature. The real world is an uglier place than you want to admit.

The reality is that most cagers are OK. Some are stupid and do stupid things. Some of which things endanger motorcyclists.Now, there is no point in retaliation against them. They are stupid and nothing is going to change that

But, there is another demographic. A small one but it exists. The demographic of malevolent bullies. Cagers who get a kick out of deliberately trying to injure motorcyclists. Yes, they DO exist, I have encountered them so have most long term motorcyclists.

Now, in my opinion , ignoring the behaviour of a cager who quite calmly and deliberately tries to kill me, and grins and giggles whilst doing it (Oh, yes, it does happen) , is a BAD thing. Acquiescing in his bullying condones it, validates it. It encourages him to think "That was fun , really scared that little shit on the motorbike, next time I'll (wait until the bike is closer before pulling out/force him even farther off the road/whatever". And, I may be able to deal with his antics and evade him. But the next time he does it, his victim is Natalie Newbie on her GN250 (he doesn't care, it's just another motorbike). And she doesn't know how to cope with it, and dies.

Such people do exist. Like all bullies, ignoring them does NOT work. It just encourages them. The only thing that such people understand is fear. Mess with a biker, and you are going to hurt. Yes, there is a risk involved. He is in a cage, I am on a bike. But that is down to me to arrange the battlefield so that his advantage is neutralised.

Ignoring the psychopaths that deliberately try to kill us (please note that deliberately, I am NOT talking about the genuine mistake or the stupid fool) is a disservice to motorcyclists in general. The price may be a newbies life.

No I am not being melodramatic.And please, do not waste all of our time by suggesting that the correct response is to call the cops. The cops will never do anything about someone trying to take out a biker. There is no point at all in involving them. teh only result is that you, the biker, will be held to be in the wrong, and the psychopath will giggle even harder.

I haven't taken off a mirror in a good many years , it's not as easy as it sounds. I have kicked a few panels in. And back in the day , I did take out a headlamp , and a windscreen. In each case , I consider my actions justified, and indeed moderate. That has to be taken in the context , of maybe half a dozen psycopaths in 40 odd years. But they do exiist.

[Katman]

Blah, blah, blah..........

Les, you have become (and possibily have always been) too ridiculous for your own good.

BRONZ - FTW (for the whinge).

[ducatilover]

Les, you have become (and possibily have always been) too ridiculous for your own good.

He is right about the psychopaths and the blah bit.
I wouldn't take a mirror or facelift a car unless it was a move with intent to harm me.

[Ixion]

So what is your solution then?

Such people do exist. How do you propose they should be treated?

To ignore them will encourage them. And each time, their victimisation will be more dangerous.

You constantly condemn motorcyclists for having the temerity to object to people trying (quite deliberately, I'm not talking about the stupid mistake) to kill them. But offer no suggestion on how such bullies should be dealt with.

Let's hear YOUR solution, then . Put up, or shut up.

[Katman]

Let's hear YOUR solution, then . Put up, or shut up.

You sound like you're in need of some panty shields.

[Ixion]

You sound like you're in need of some panty shields.
Your solution? Put up, or shut up. The world waits.

[ManDownUnder]

If you clock some chap upside the skull outside a pub while wearing your Repco work shirt, that dude is hardly going to unprovokedly attack the next random person he sees walking along the sidewalk wearing a Repco work shirt.

Same thing applies to the road.

Or they could think "CUNT"... and swing briefly in the direction of their missing wing mirror...

Laws of physics 1
Laws of NZ 0

[Katman]

Your solution? Put up, or shut up. The world waits.

My solution?

For a start, tell BRONZ that they have no more effect on the well being of motorcyclists than a nasty rash.

[Ixion]

You're evading the question. Your solution ? Put up or shut up.

[ManDownUnder]

Your solution? Put up, or shut up. The world waits.

Note their plate, pop down the post office get their address... and write to them saying "I know where you live - don't do it again".

I hand delivered my last request to the door... I believe it had the desired effect.

[Ixion]

Done that, too. But that is just transferring the confrontation. Mr Katman's argument is that bikers objecting to people trying to kill them may annoy said people. I suggest that they are going to be even more annoyed at said biker turning up on their door step and bleating. Either they'll be pissed off (which by Mr Katman's logic means they go out and try to kill yet more bikers) or, they regard your presence on your doorstep as a great giggle . After all , he tried to kill you. Didn't succeed , but obviously scared you a lot. And got his jollies off on that. Now you turn up and show him yet again, that his beahviour really frightened you. Which, to him, validates it. Sadists ENJOY the fact that they frightened you. Reinforcing that he succeeded means he will be more likely to try it again.

And, so, you deliver your "Don't do it again" letter. And said dude says "Yeah. Make me. I'll do just whatever I want. And if I want to run some crap arse motorbike off the road, that's just what I'm going to do. " Now what you going to do?

And posting them a letter? Geeze, that's REALLY going to make them think twice, isn't it.

Which said, such a response is a very good one for the cases where the endangerment arises from stupidity or negligence. The "Didn't give way"; "pulled out in front", " tried to change lanes on top of me" cases. But that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the cagers who quite deliberately try to kill a biker. Not who do sometime careless, negligent or stupid. THAT happens to me several times a week. I either ignore it, or attempt to explain to the cager why what they did was so dangerous.

(Incidentally, I'd REALLY suggest that anyone intending to deliver such a letter in person make sure they take a good contingent of mates along. It is very very likely to get ugly)

[Mikkel]

Frankly I have a feeling that 90% of the times anyone claims to have taken out a wingmirror it'll be some blow-hard who's shooting off their mouth... at least I hope that is the case. Because it is just too fucking stupid to even contemplate.

As for bullies, you don't counter bullying with bullying. If you show no fear the bully will become confused and back down. The effect of steadily seeking eye contact with an individual is not to be under estimated.

Of course there are the occassional near-miss that puts the shit up you - but in my experience the offender is guilty of nothing else than being either oblivious of their surroundings or just unable to operate their vehicle in a competent manner. As such there is no malice involved and countering the situation with violence accomplishes nothing.

As for BRONZ - the tidbits I've read in Kiwirider gave me the impression that they are just paranoid scare-mongers... a rather poor representation for the people I have met through biking to be honest.

[madbikeboy]

Frankly I have a feeling that 90% of the times anyone claims to have taken out a wingmirror it'll be some blow-hard who's shooting off their mouth... at least I hope that is the case. Because it is just too fucking stupid to even contemplate.

As for bullies, you don't counter bullying with bullying. If you show no fear the bully will become confused and back down. The effect of steadily seeking eye contact with an individual is not to be under estimated.



There are some people out there, paranoia aside, who need to take their rage out on someone, and I've experienced a few of those over the years. Ixion is bang on about that. Not showing fear and making eye contact - well, making eye contact is hostile, a bully will react, and I don't mean back down, you're not talking about dominance over a dog. The few that have tried it on over the years with me have come off second best. Sooner or later, someone will best me, there is inevitability at play.

My point is, avoid the confrontation at all costs, but when someone deliberately tries to take you out (and this does happen, I've been on the recieving end), then sometimes it's appropriate to let the rage out of the pit that it normally resides in. Next time that asshole could kill Natalie Newbie.

As for wing mirrors. It's tougher than it sounds, hitting it with your hand, even in gloves, hurts, and you risk breaking bones. I'm not much good with the boot though.

[xwhatsit]

Given the right technique people can be educated without even realising they're being educated.
I'd love to know how to do that. What would you suggest. As an Auckland commuter (especially travelling through suburbs such as Parnell and Remuera -- home of the most dangerous of drivers, the executive in a company car), I tend to come across more than a few of these numpties thinking of anything except the task at hand (i.e. driving). After avoiding the situation, I'm frequently left wondering... what now? Should I wave my fist? Yell obscenities? Tap on his window and start a conversation? Usually I just quietly make my way through traffic and get on with my journey, which is certainly a good method of self-preservation but often leaves the driver completely unaware anything happened at all (didn't see me when they pulled out -- didn't see me as I whizzed passed a few centimetres from their front bumper either).

How many hundreds of these incidents have I had in only a few years riding, despite best efforts to avoid them... I just put it down as part of the experience of riding in traffic. But if each time it happened, you could make that driver a little more aware next time?

How to educate? How do you do it?

[Katman]

Let's hear YOUR solution, then . Put up, or shut up.

It requires nothing more than an outstretched upturned hand in a "What the fuck?" manner or pointing to your eyes indicating that they should use theirs.

Anything more is just perpetuating the Neanderthal Biker image that is doing us nothing but harm.

[cs363]

It requires nothing more than an outstretched upturned hand in a "What the fuck?" manner or pointing to your eyes indicating that they should use theirs.

Anything more is just perpetuating the Neanderthal Biker image that is doing us nothing but harm.


Most of my mates and myself have always used the shaking head followed by finger repeatedly pointed at the cranial section, in most cases that usually gets an apologetic reaction from the wrongdoer (as well as providing light entertainment for the rest of the riders). The small amount of people that don't respond or give the blank stare often get a sign language version of what you'd probably refer to them as in real life.... :tugger:

These actions not only convey your displeasure at their idiocy but being a bit lighthearted also tend to help vent the steam from your helmet.
I must admit it's tempting at times to kick a mirror or a door etc., but Katman is right that this does nothing to help our image with the public at large.

[Dave Lobster]

Let's hear YOUR solution, then . Put up, or shut up.

How about give them a free house, enough money to run a dumb car with a bean can exhaust, and no reason to work?

That'll teach them!!

[Owl]

pointing to your eyes indicating that they should use theirs.

My preferred method of choice.

I've never kicked a door or taken out a mirror, but then I'm not a vandal and I respect other people's property, even if I have little respect for those people.

[bogan]

i dont think i violent retaliation should ever be the preffered option, maybe if somebody is deliberately trying to take you out, but if it deliberate i wouldnt want to be hanging round a wing mirror, good way to get sideswipped, id wanna get the fuck outa there. Probably a good smack at the next stop lights would suffice though, i mean they are already trying to kill bikers so cant do any harm.
And for all the other occasions (99.9% of the time) when its a genuine mistake, a tut-tut finger or headshake is all that is necessary.

[breakaway]

Do you really think that the majority of drivers are going to think "Opps, poor motorcyclist - I'll look out for them next time".

Some twats threw a bottle of beer out their car which smashed in front of my bike with I had the missus on the back. Fight fire with fire.

But I spotted a drink driving police checkpoint up the road. Stopped and told them what had happened. Nothing came of it.

Should have just performed a mirrororectomy.

[FROSTY]

Thing is though that no matter how outraged ya feel at that dopey fuck on the cellphone drinking mocha lattta ans swinging out in front of you He/shs is inside a couple of tonnes of steel. Dya really think that you are gonna come off better off in a physical confrontation.?
Reality is it doesn't matter what ya do fuckwits are still gonna be fuckwits. Its kinda like the anti smacking law the people its aimed at actually dont give a shit.

[hayd3n]

avoid all cagers or take it to the track

[gatch]

If you wave a fist at some chump who has just cut you off, what effect is this going to have exactly ? Really.. Come on, I'm interested to know.

I've been in vehicles with people who managed to not look where they are going and as a result cut some people off, were they apologetic when they got the one finger salute ??

Fuck no, they laughed and said "ahhh fuck off wanker". And I doubt very much that the attitude is going to be any different because we are motorcyclists. A fist wave and a kind word of warning isn't going to do fuck all. Just like whinging about it on the internet.

If someone endangers your life because of their stupidity and carelessness, fucking show them how it makes you feel, violent action or not, whatever you feel is warranted.

[gatch]

"We need to reduce the number of irate drivers not create them." - Katman

Fair enough, but how do you propose to do this ? Fist waving ? Calling the cops ? A letter in the mail ? Roadside chemical neutering ? What ?

[Dave Lobster]

And for all the other occasions (99.9% of the time) when its a genuine mistake, a tut-tut finger or headshake is all that is necessary.

No no.. a genuine mistake is putting your socks on inside out, or getting one bottle of milk from pak 'n' save when you should have got two.

A mistake involving a deadly weapon (car) endangering someone's life is NOT a genuine mistake. It's driving in a manner endangering life. The same slack attitude with a firearm would be dealt with harshly (if caught). Why not with a car?

[XRVrider]

As a bicycle courier, you get the most grief possible from all road users, Pedestrians and all. As well as having the least protection to save you from bodily damage.

But from motorcycles I've had the least (have raced motorbikes across London and beaten them) so I broke very law going to make the most money possible, ran every light, and stop sign, held onto cars, buses and trucks for a tow with no regret. But I never put anyone at risk willingly, and tried to keep my nose clean. I never caused an accident by being what might be called reckless (by those who didnt ride a bike).

To those drivers who simply made a mistake putting my safety in danger I asked them to explain or just blanked it and carried on with a wave. If the person said Im sorry or waved I said "no problem, have a good day, or please be careful".

But if they gave me the finger after putting my safety at risk or told me to f off, or swerved at me I spat on their car and gave the finger. This was to rile them up same as I was, to show what it felt like, and had some very funny times watching their reactions. Fat cabbies getting out of cars and running after me etc.. with me yelling cmon fat boy, run faster... too many fry ups huh? I never got caught.

Guys who tried to run you over, and believe me it did happen, with me just minding my own business (I doubt another cyclist upset them first), I have been run off the road, knocked off etc... Then my reaction was to match theirs and spoil their day. One time with me knocked off lying on the road and bleeding the guy stopped, wound down his window and shouted "ha fucken ha, wish Id killed you". Red mist time from me. Got up ran to his stopped car and kicked in the entire side (all 4 panel's fully ruined) and shouted for him to get out.... he did, three onlookers grabbed him and held him down and asked me if I was alright. This was a Black Cab driver who was a nutter, but a dented cab isnt allowed to trade, so had to get off the road for repairs.

No-one wins but what he did was wrong, you dont go trying to kill someone and get away with it. I only damaged his car, thats nothing.

Not interested in what you think I might have done wrong here Katman, we are all different, some of us have balls.

[Katman]

"We need to reduce the number of irate drivers not create them." - Katman

Fair enough, but how do you propose to do this ? Fist waving ? Calling the cops ? A letter in the mail ? Roadside chemical neutering ? What ?

And how exactly is smashing off someone's wing mirror going to reduce the number of irate drivers?

[oldrider]

If you clock some chap upside the skull outside a pub while wearing your Repco work shirt, that dude is hardly going to unprovokedly attack the next random person he sees walking along the sidewalk wearing a Repco work shirt.

Same thing applies to the road.

If they see YOU again, they may indeed do something silly. But they're not going to attack just any ol' biker they see, unless they're already substantially more fucked in the head then your average human being, at which point there is no point factoring them into the equation because they're just that - outside of the norm.

Unfortunately, you just described the average New Zealand motorist of today! :doh:

[PirateJafa]

Unfortunately, you just described the average New Zealand motorist of today! :doh:
Try moving out of those barbaric southern climes, mate. ;)

[oldrider]

Try moving out of those barbaric southern climes, mate. ;)

Thought about it today, it was bloody cold here this morning! :cold:

[FROSTY]

Dave Lobster. One of my favorite little sayings is "let he who has committed no sin cast the first stone"
Could you HONESTLY look me in the eye and say I have never made a mistake on the road ??

Heres the thing noone in this thread has discussed.
Whats happening to you whilst busy kicking the mirror off and zipping away. You're all pissed off and speeding. Dunno about anybody else but for me thats a recipe for me ending up having an accident cos Im so wound up.
To me staying alive is just so much more iportant than proving how right I am.

[FJRider]

Try moving out of those barbaric southern climes, mate. ;)

To northern clime's ... where they kick mirrors off cars you mean ... ??? :chase:

Thats one step away from shooting out their lights ... :rolleyes:

[FJRider]

Thought about it today, it was bloody cold here this morning! :cold:

Wasn't cold here ... only minus 2 .... :innocent:

[Dave Lobster]

Dave Lobster. One of my favorite little sayings is "let he who has committed no sin cast the first stone"
Could you HONESTLY look me in the eye and say I have never made a mistake on the road ??

Heres the thing noone in this thread has discussed.
Whats happening to you whilst busy kicking the mirror off and zipping away. You're all pissed off and speeding. Dunno about anybody else but for me thats a recipe for me ending up having an accident cos Im so wound up.
To me staying alive is just so much more important than proving how right I am.

Ignoring the godbothering bit... I don't get angry with them. I don't get wound up with them. I seldom lose my temper. All of these things are a recipe for me not having an accident until another half asleep tortoise tries to have me off.

[FROSTY]

Nahh DL heres the thing --doesn't matter where a good idea comes from its still a good idea.

[Katman]

Not interested in what you think I might have done wrong here Katman, we are all different, some of us have balls.

Really? Spitting on someone's car then racing off down the road while they tried to chase you doesn't sound like balls to me.


And btw, I was a motorcycle courier in London for 4 years. I do know exactly what it was like.

[Zuki lover]

Who needs mirrors anyway.... don't use them when racing either

[Ixion]

And how exactly is smashing off someone's wing mirror going to reduce the number of irate drivers?

And your solution is ? You are still evading the question. Put up or shut up.



..
me knocked off lying on the road and bleeding the guy stopped, wound down his window and shouted "ha fucken ha, wish Id killed you"
.


Do you really think that turning an amicable blind eye to this man will make him any less violent toward the next victim he selects ? That in an instant he will be converted by your Christlike forgiveness ? If you really believe that , and could thus forgive if it was you, or someone you loved, that was bleeding, then I genuinely respect you, you are a better Christian than I . Somehow, I don't think it's true

I really wish you DID have a solution. I don't have a good one.

Peple who do this sort of thing are sadists. They get their jollies (usually sexual, though not always) from hurting people. They enjoy causing pain. The odds are that the man in the quote above got an erection doing it. They select people they perceive as weak or vulnerable to hurt. Children, women, old people. And motorcyclists . Turning a blind eye to his behaviour isn't going to change him. It's just going to encourage him, to assure him that he can get away with it.

Don't know an answer. Most of the time circumstances are such that all you can hope to do is run - get out his way. Calling the cops is useless. reasoning with him (let alone plaintive letters in the mail) is meaningless. Giving him pain in return may at least make him pause next time.

[rosie631]

You sound like you're in need of some panty shields.

And you sound like a self righteous, sanctimonious twat

[Katman]

Peple who do this sort of thing are sadists. They get their jollies (usually sexual, though not always) from hurting people. They enjoy causing pain. The odds are that the man in the quote above got an erection doing it. They select people they perceive as weak or vulnerable to hurt. Children, women, old people. And motorcyclists . Turning a blind eye to his behaviour isn't going to change him. It's just going to encourage him, to assure him that he can get away with it.



What a load of shit.

The majority of times wing mirrors are deliberately smashed off is simply due to the motorcyclist's sense of grievance that they weren't seen. (The rest of the times seem to be from pillocks that don't know how to lane split).

And besides, I'm not saying that there isn't the odd time that someone might deserve to have it happen to them - I'm saying that by doing so we are creating more of a hazard for all of us rather than solving it.

[bogan]

No no.. a genuine mistake is putting your socks on inside out, or getting one bottle of milk from pak 'n' save when you should have got two.

A mistake involving a deadly weapon (car) endangering someone's life is NOT a genuine mistake. It's driving in a manner endangering life. The same slack attitude with a firearm would be dealt with harshly (if caught). Why not with a car?

genuine mistake in that whoever made it is genuinely apologetic, it is high stakes but if it wasnt deliberate theres no point claiming a mirror, they will probably learn for next time anyway.

[Ixion]

What a load of shit.

The majority of times wing mirrors are deliberately smashed off is simply due to the motorcyclist's sense of grievance that they weren't seen. (The rest of the times seem to be from pillocks that don't know how to lane split).

As a matter of interest, how many actual, identified , specific cases of wing mirrors being smashed off do you know of ? Not "heard from a mate" , but ones where you actually know person time and place? Personally, I don't know of ANY. It's often talked of, it's a shit load harder to do than it sounds , and I don't think it happens very often.

BTW I think you really mean pillar mirrors. Wing mirrors were the old sort mounted on the mudguard above the front wheel. Almost impossible to break off without breaking your arm

And an ACCIDENTAL knock on a mirror when lane splitting is quite a different matter. One takes a certain pride in never touching , but occasionally a touch will happen. Usually without any ill effect to either party. If someone is going to go homicidal about that, then they have real big issues.


I think you are building an anti-motorcyclist crusade over something that doesn't really exist (and how much lane splitting does occur in Taupo anyway ? )

[Madness]

And here I was thinking Katman had taken early retirement.

[jaymzw]

Or do you think that perhaps they're more likely to think "Fuck you ya prick, I'll take out the next fucker on a motorcycle who passes me"?

Seems this guy could have that exact attitude towards cyclists :argue:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=36257312&threadid=36257312

If you cant be stuffed opening it, a quick quote from the thread "My car weighs 2300kgs Guess who will win. Rant over."

Crazy psychopathic mother fucker, im happy i dont ride a bicycle.

[bogan]

Seems this guy could have that exact attitude towards cyclists :argue:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=36257312&threadid=36257312

If you cant be stuffed opening it, a quick quote from the thread "My car weighs 2300kgs Guess who will win. Rant over."

Crazy psychopathic mother fucker, im happy i dont ride a bicycle.

yeh seems a bit ott. though i do worry bout cyclists who do this, we have lots of cycle lanes in palmy so naturally they do come up on the left, i dont actually know what the law is there, is the cyclist undertaking and at fault? or the cager at fault for not giving way to a vehicle (at a stretch!) going straight, personally i just move over into the cycle lane after i start indicating, nobody ca come up on left then. This may be a bit :Offtopic: but, meh

[jaymzw]

This may be a bit :Offtopic: but, meh

I posted the link because the guy had been frustrated by the actions of a few cyclists and basically stated that the next cyclist that crosses him is gonna end up eating the road. It supported KM opening post. Hence why opening post was quoted.

Just as KM says, your actions aren't just affecting you, they could affect every other biker aswell.

Doesnt mean some cagers dont deserve their heads kicked in, let alone their doors or side mirrors.

[XRVrider]

Having balls is doing something about what you think is wrong Katman. My way of getting back at twats was to rile them, spitting worked a treat in those instances, not knocking a mirror off. Would quite like to spit on your car right now though :bleh:

[Katman]

Having balls is doing something about what you think is wrong Katman. My way of getting back at twats was to rile them, spitting worked a treat in those instances, not knocking a mirror off. Would quite like to spit on your car right now though :bleh:

Wow, how totally heroic.

:love:

[FJRider]

What a load of shit.

The majority of times wing mirrors are deliberately smashed off is simply due to the motorcyclist's sense of grievance that they weren't seen. (The rest of the times seem to be from pillocks that don't know how to lane split).

And besides, I'm not saying that there isn't the odd time that someone might deserve to have it happen to them - I'm saying that by doing so we are creating more of a hazard for all of us rather than solving it.

But if it happens "accidently" ... whats the problem. If its not ... at least in future the cage drivers will be looking out for bikes... if only to run them down.

But they WILL be looking out for bikes ... thats good ... isn't it ???

[Katman]

(and how much lane splitting does occur in Taupo anyway ? )

It can be a real bitch getting to the front of our one set of traffic lights sometimes.

:msn-wink:

[quickbuck]

I posted the link because the guy had been frustrated by the actions of a few cyclists and basically stated that the next cyclist that crosses him is gonna end up eating the road. It supported KM opening post. Hence why opening post was quoted.

Just as KM says, your actions aren't just affecting you, they could affect every other biker aswell.

Doesnt mean some cagers dont deserve their heads kicked in, let alone their doors or side mirrors.

Yup,
That message on TM truly supports the idea we are sharing the road with psychopaths.......


And as you say, it truly supports the fact we all get tared with the same brush....
Just as we tar people who drive a SUV in town, people of the same race, and even people from an area of a city, we as motorcyclists are also tared by the actions of a few.
Inappropriate reactions and threats do NOTHING to diffuse the situation.

In fact that thread on TM got me a little wound up, BUT that is my feelings I have to deal with.
If I really said to the poster what I thought of their attitude right now, they would probable laugh in my face, as they obviously got a reaction.... and i would most likely look like an idiot. Anger fueled words never make perfect sense to those who don't see it your way.

So, really we have to chill out, look at the situation, and react appropriately.

Oh, and for what it is worth, i do know of one case of a mirror going missing.

I was in Blenheim (posted to Woodbourne) at the time, and a bunch of mates were coming back from Picton on their bikes (about 5). Another mate was out teaching his missus at the time how to drive.
As they were barreling down SH1 she looked up the road and misjudged the rate in which motorcycles travel. She made the slightly poor decision to pull out in front of them. All 5 bikes had plenty of time and room to take evasive action... her only real mistake was to actually accelerate too slowly.

Anyhow the last in the group decided to show the driver that he still had at least one finger on his left hand by holding it just above the height of the door handle...... Well, he collected the mirror.
Totally accidental, but a consequence of his small outrage at the time.

I know all involved, and the owner of the car was more than a little upset.
He would have much preferred the rider to come up to him and expressed how he felt face to face, as opposed to vandalising his car and riding off.....

Little did either party realise at the time the red mist was flowing that they actually worked with each other!

SO, careful who's mirror you smash!

[Katman]

But if it happens "accidently" ... whats the problem. If its not ... at least in future the cage drivers will be looking out for bikes... if only to run them down.

But they WILL be looking out for bikes ... thats good ... isn't it ???

If it happens accidentally then you still end up with a fucked off car driver who suddenly has a dislike of motorcyclists.

While your comment "if only to run them down" was obviously said tongue in cheek - many a true word is said in jest.

[FJRider]

If it happens accidentally then you still end up with a fucked off car driver who suddenly has a dislike of motorcyclists.

While your comment "if only to run them down" was obviously said tongue in cheek - many a true word is said in jest.

I am a motorcyclist ... and I have a strong dislike of some motorcyclists. (A few fuck me off) A fucked off cage pilot is little different.

My tounge was nowhere near my cheek ... I can assure you of that. !!!

[Katman]

I am a motorcyclist ... and I have a strong dislike of some motorcyclists. (A few fuck me off) A fucked off cage pilot is little different.

My tounge was nowhere near my cheek ... I can assure you of that. !!!

Really?

A fucked off car driver is piloting something capable of far greater injury to a motorcyclist than another motorcycle (and are usually somewhat harder to avoid).

[Katman]

My tounge was nowhere near my cheek ... I can assure you of that. !!!

So your comment that at least the car driver will be looking out for motorcyclists, even if only to run them down, was serious???????

:eek5:

[FJRider]

Really?

A fucked off car driver is piloting something capable of far greater injury to a motorcyclist than another motorcycle.

I thought I said that.(A fucked off cage pilot is a little different) Perhaps if you wish to continue quoting me ... Can you please do so in the correct context.

A (any) half decent, poorly trained ... motorcyclist, riding an underpowered, out of date motorcycle, should be able to ... get out of the way of/get away from ... most cages.

It is advised by most experienced motorcyclists, to inexperienced motorcyclists ... to treat all cages as though they were out to get them.

In most cases ... its not far from the truth ...

[FJRider]

So your comment that at least the car driver will be looking out for motorcyclists, even if only to run them down, was serious???????

:eek5:

It can be as serious as YOU think it could/might be ... ignore ANY cage at your peril ...

[bogan]

I posted the link because the guy had been frustrated by the actions of a few cyclists and basically stated that the next cyclist that crosses him is gonna end up eating the road. It supported KM opening post. Hence why opening post was quoted.

yeh, i just meant my questions about the cycling laws were probly a bit off topic, not ur stuff.

[jaymzw]

yeh, i just meant my questions about the cycling laws were probly a bit off topic, not ur stuff.
Oops my bad, i musta come across abit arrogant :Playnice:

[Katman]

Perhaps if you wish to continue quoting me ... Can you please do so in the correct context.



Then go back and add the "a" to your post at #89.

The way you said it implies that you think there is very little difference.

If you want me to quote you in the correct context, learn to proof read.

[FJRider]

Then go back and add the "a" to your post at #89.

The way you said it implies that you think there is very little difference.

If you want me to quote you in the correct context, learn to proof read.

there is enough frigging a's in there now. Where else do you want me to put another ???

YOU LEARN TO READ ... maybe its best you dont quote me ...

Warning folks ... Hitcher has help ...

[Katman]

Where else do you want me to put another ???



Here, I'll help you.


A fucked off cage pilot is little different.





A fucked off cage pilot is a little different.



See the difference?

[FJRider]

I thought I said that.(A fucked off cage pilot is a little different) Perhaps if you wish to continue quoting me ... Can you please do so in the correct context.



Remember THIS ... ???

[FJRider]

And you sound like a self righteous, sanctimonious twat

I'm beginning to believe ...

[bogan]

Oops my bad, i musta come across abit arrogant :Playnice:

nah bro, just a simple missunderstanding.

To FJRider and Katman, chillax the fuck out, save some anger for those cagers who cut you off :ar15:

[dipshit]

Having balls is doing something about what you think is wrong


You "think" is wrong? How about all those times when it was a motorcyclist in the wrong yet he/she still had a little temper tantrum and abused the other road users..??

After all many motorcyclists seem to think their shit never stinks.

[XRVrider]

Some think they never make mistakes, but others make them on purpose, its those nutters who my comments are aimed at. Bikers are guilty of this at times too but so is everyone... Retaliation when severely provoked is something that most of us may have done in the past, I certainly didnt let it go in a few instances, but on many many of other occasions, I did.

Please read my first post for why I wanted to do something about what "I thought" was wrong. You might agree, its all opinion of course.

[madbikeboy]

If you cant be stuffed opening it, a quick quote from the thread "My car weighs 2300kgs Guess who will win. Rant over."

Crazy psychopathic mother fucker, im happy i dont ride a bicycle.

I ride bikes and bicycles. This is by far the most aggressive country in the world to ride -riding in the US is actually safer, and better. I have hosted many elite, world class riders over the years - and all them have been shocked by the level of aggression here.

We have a societal issue with violence and aggression here.

I'm heading back up to Holland/Belgium/Germany in a week or so, and I'll be doing a lot of cycling there - the rules are very different, and to be honest, much better than here. There is no aggression or malice intended.

The answer is much harder to find than curing drink driving - most people think they're good drivers, and losing 10 seconds to a cyclist or motorcycle somehow justifies their behaviour. So, you're not going to reach them.

To be honest, I've been a staunch supported of living here, but I'm 2 years away from moving overseas permanently. Living in Holland pays better, I can ride my pushie safely, and where I'd like to live, is only a couple of hours from the Nurburgring...

[madbikeboy]

removing wing mirrors is tougher than it sounds. Mr Hyde is at 3-4, not sure if I can count the 4th one because it didn't come off all the way. That's in a lot of years of riding, and each has a story that even a Nun would seek some form of retribution...

[CookMySock]

[....] do you think that perhaps they're more likely to think "Fuck you ya prick, I'll take out the next fucker on a motorcycle who passes me"?You really worry about that happening to you, don't you? Is that the whole problem, Steve? Other motorcyclists putting you at risk because they make cagers angry?

Thread TL;DR.

Steve

[Katman]

You really worry about that happening to you, don't you? Is that the whole problem, Steve? Other motorcyclists putting you at risk because they make cagers angry?

Thread TL;DR.

Steve

No, I'm not that worried about it happening to me. I'm confident enough in my ability to be able to avoid finding myself in a position where it is likely to affect me to any great degree.

It is those who I care about, that ride motorcycles, that I worry about - some of whom are considerably less experienced than myself.

But I don't suppose you'd understand that DB. As long as you're having fun you don't seem to give a fuck about any other road user.

[vifferman]

I've only deliberately attacked one driver's car, and felt guilty immediately after doing so - it didn't make me feel better, and didn't teach him anything.
I was riding home, came up to a T-intersection to turn left, and the driver in front of me was either pissed, stoned, or a complete fuckwit. He ambled over to the right at the intersection, then turned left in front of me. Although I was too alert to have been hit by this tard, I was so enraged about his crappy and careless driving that when I went by him at the traffic lights, I punched his mirror so it was folded forward. I doubt that he noticed or realised what it was about.

Far more effective has been the times I've followed people who have cut me off because they didn't look, and when they stopped at their destination, told them what they'd done and that they should be more careful. Dunno if it made any difference.

I can say I've only had one dickhead deliberately endanger my life, and there wasn't much I could do about it - I felt VERY angry and impotent. I was travelling down Onewa road in the right lane, and some metres behind me in the left lane was a man with a very small penis driving a large and powerful Falcadore ute. (Yes, that's why his driving was bad - he should've used his hands, not his childlike organ). Ahead of us, the left lane was (very obviously) blocked by a truck with falshing arrow thing on the back. Instead of slowing slightly, and changing lanes behind me, Mr Childlike-Organ planted his foot and swung to the right. I hit the brakes very hard, so he didn't hit me. I think I tootled him vigorously, waved my arm around, and that was about all I could do. I would've remonstrated with him at the traffic lights, but they were green, and he turned left.

I dunno what else I could've done. He obviously didn't give a damn, so the only recourse left would've been retribution. Wouldn't have fixed things, and in his tiny-brained, tiny-organed world, wouldn't have been a case of "fair enough". I probably would've had a momentary thrill, followed by an awful to of guilty feelings.

[cs363]

I ride bikes and bicycles. This is by far the most aggressive country in the world to ride -riding in the US is actually safer, and better. I have hosted many elite, world class riders over the years - and all them have been shocked by the level of aggression here.

We have a societal issue with violence and aggression here.

I'm heading back up to Holland/Belgium/Germany in a week or so, and I'll be doing a lot of cycling there - the rules are very different, and to be honest, much better than here. There is no aggression or malice intended.

The answer is much harder to find than curing drink driving - most people think they're good drivers, and losing 10 seconds to a cyclist or motorcycle somehow justifies their behaviour. So, you're not going to reach them.

To be honest, I've been a staunch supported of living here, but I'm 2 years away from moving overseas permanently. Living in Holland pays better, I can ride my pushie safely, and where I'd like to live, is only a couple of hours from the Nurburgring...


Have to agree, especially the years I spent living & working in Auckland.
I would rather ride/drive in rush hour in Los Angeles than in Auckland and/or most places in NZ. Over there (and most civilised countries I've been to) people let you in to a row of traffic when you indicate rather than the childish/aggressive antics you see here with people closing the gap rather than let someone in front of them (the horror!), and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Bad driving habits abound in NZ (tailgating, failing to give way, failing to indicate or use mirrors, passing on blind corners/brows of hills, on double yellow lines, slow traffic failing to yield to traffic behind and the list just goes on...) and unfortunately the powers that be would rather turn a blind eye to that in preference to dishing out speeding tickets for 11km/h over the limit on a deserted road.
The rot starts with the pathetic licensing system and it's almost complete lack of driver training and just gets worse....
I'm going to stop now because I can feel a rant coming on... :calm:

[MarkH]

I don't think I can agree with what is said about NZs bad drivers. I know some drivers are fuckin' arseholes - but most are courteous and sensible. I think it is just that the jerks stand out more in our memories.

I developed a technique for changing lanes on Auckland's motorways, just to cope with the small percentage of arseholes. The problem is that when I am beside a reasonable gap and indicate to let the car a few car lengths back know what I am doing, sometimes that car will speed up. My technique is to indicate and watch that car in my wing mirror. If he maintains the gap and gives me enough room (which most do) then after indicating for 3 seconds I move over - this is my courteous lane change. If the other driver responds to my indicating my speeding up then I immediately change lanes. The smarter readers would have guessed that I am describing car driving - on the bike I don't have a real problem with the cars.

I do get very pissed off with the bad/inconsiderate drivers but surely they are a fairly small minority (we still have to be careful lest one of these retards kill us).

[Patch]

take all the arrogant self-righteous arseholes out of dorkland and there'd be bugger all people left - would be a shit load safer/easier to get about tho


Most steel wins!!

[XRVrider]

After driving in 20 or so countries, I agree with a few comments above. Many here are not considerate drivers and some of the stuff that goes on is childish and just plain dumb. Just take a look at our road toll per capita, I think it is, or was 2nd worst in 1st world countries. That says a lot really.

[MarkH]

After driving in 20 or so countries, I agree with a few comments above. Many here are not considerate drivers and some of the stuff that goes on is childish and just plain dumb. Just take a look at our road toll per capita, I think it is, or was 2nd worst in 1st world countries. That says a lot really.

It also fails to say a lot too. I wonder how we rate on road toll per km travelled? Some countries have a smaller percentage of the population that drive (like China and India) so the road toll per capita may not be the most accurate measurement of how good/bad NZ drivers are.

[XRVrider]

It also fails to say a lot too. I wonder how we rate on road toll per km travelled? Some countries have a smaller percentage of the population that drive (like China and India) so the road toll per capita may not be the most accurate measurement of how good/bad NZ drivers are.

China and India are not first world countries but I think I know what you mean. We can break figures down such as kms travelled etc... but that doesnt mean that more people should die on our roads, just because we maybe drive more. Look at Australia for that comparison as they drive massive distances and they have way less die per person. Road toll is an indicator and there are always the stories of crossing the center line and head on accidents, for example, while on the phone or even texting, not clever. Fact is that many people know, is that some in New Zealand are diabolical drivers, and many other countries are setting up their roads and driving skills in better ways, we should too.

Anyway, sorry this is getting a bit off topic.

[CookMySock]

I don't think I can agree with what is said about NZs bad drivers. I know some drivers are fuckin' arseholes - but most are courteous and sensible. I think it is just that the jerks stand out more in our memories.For sure. Generally I have no problems, and the problems I do have I can solve with a flick of the wrist.


on the bike I don't have a real problem with the cars.Ditto. The easy way is to lanesplit everywhere, whether it is required or not. Pass cars on the white line and it's impossible to pull out in front of other traffic.


I do get very pissed off with the bad/inconsiderate drivers but surely they are a fairly small minority (we still have to be careful lest one of these retards kill us).Try my "twist the wrist and smoke them" solution. It works damn fine for me. ;)

Steve

[Katman]

and the problems I do have I can solve with a flick of the wrist.



What you get up to in the privacy of your own home is your business.



The easy way is to lanesplit everywhere, whether it is required or not. Pass cars on the white line and it's impossible to pull out in front of other traffic.


And that has to be some of the most retarded advice you've ever given.

[Grahameeboy]

I don't think I can agree with what is said about NZs bad drivers. I know some drivers are fuckin' arseholes - but most are courteous and sensible. I think it is just that the jerks stand out more in our memories.

I developed a technique for changing lanes on Auckland's motorways, just to cope with the small percentage of arseholes. The problem is that when I am beside a reasonable gap and indicate to let the car a few car lengths back know what I am doing, sometimes that car will speed up. My technique is to indicate and watch that car in my wing mirror. If he maintains the gap and gives me enough room (which most do) then after indicating for 3 seconds I move over - this is my courteous lane change. If the other driver responds to my indicating my speeding up then I immediately change lanes. The smarter readers would have guessed that I am describing car driving - on the bike I don't have a real problem with the cars.

I do get very pissed off with the bad/inconsiderate drivers but surely they are a fairly small minority (we still have to be careful lest one of these retards kill us).

Compared with the rest of the world NZ drivers are pretty bad and inconsiderate...

[Grahameeboy]

What you get up to in the privacy of your own home is your business.



And that has to be some of the most retarded advice you've ever given.

Oh Katman...retards have more sense than that...

[CookMySock]

And that has to be some of the most retarded advice you've ever given.Logic? Rationale? Reasoning? Eplanation? Snide remark? Abusive reply?

Which of these tools will you use today? Some of them will benefit you and others, and some of them will do no good at all.

Steve

[martybabe]

I'm heading back up to Holland/Belgium/Germany in a week or so, and I'll be doing a lot of cycling there - the rules are very different, and to be honest, much better than here. There is no aggression or malice intended.

..

I sat sipping a latte on a street corner in Amsterdam once upon a time, right by a major road junction, 6or 7 exits + filter lanes and traffic lights. literally hundreds of bicycles passed by in half an hour or so, crossing and re crossing lanes intermingling with cars and bikes. whilst my heart was in my mouth waiting for what I saw as the inevitable, nothing, nada, zilch, not a single near miss even, t'was like a well oiled machine in action,amazing driver bicycle empathy.

Back on topic, I have never mashed a wing mirror nor kicked a door but I fully understand it as an act of anger.

What to a driver is a minor driving error or a brief flash of arrogance or risk taking, one of many a day no doubt, Is to a biker a potentially fatal accident, the loss of a father/brother/sister for someone's carelessness or stupidity, damn right I'd be angry. I don't pretend to know the answer but if someone swung a loaded shotgun round in your living room and then left are we proposing a simple shake of the head would make them realise the error of their ways?.

Whilst I can't condone giving their car a good kicking,to let them carry on as if nothing had happened is surely as potentially dangerous for the next biker that crosses their path as the scenario you put forward .

Dangerous ignorance or driver with a grudge..I don't want to meet either of the fuggers!

[MarkH]

Road toll is an indicator and there are always the stories of crossing the center line and head on accidents, for example, while on the phone or even texting, not clever. Fact is that many people know, is that some in New Zealand are diabolical drivers, and many other countries are setting up their roads and driving skills in better ways, we should too.

I am all for some sort of driver/rider education system to improve the quality of driving in NZ. Maybe instead of issuing tickets with points/fines and loss of license for too many points . . . I dunnoe . . . maybe too many points and you have to attend a driver education program where you have your driving habits examined & improved. Maybe also have more attention paid to driver behaviour at intersections. The current system seems to be all about catching speeders and punishing them - no effort made to educate or improve the drivers that may end up killing someone.

What about the option to voluntarily go to an advanced driving course and have your points wiped if you pass? You know, some sort of reward for making an effort to improve your driving!


:argh: So much room for improvement, so little effort to implement anything that would actually help!

[davebullet]

Katman,

Maybe you answered this in a previous page (I don't have a flameproof suit to read through those last few pages :laugh: ). Can you please explain what triggered your post?

Thanks,
Dave.

[Boob Johnson]

If you clock some chap upside the skull outside a pub while wearing your Repco work shirt, that dude is hardly going to unprovokedly attack the next random person he sees walking along the sidewalk wearing a Repco work shirt.

Same thing applies to the road.

If they see YOU again, they may indeed do something silly. But they're not going to attack just any ol' biker they see, unless they're already substantially more fucked in the head then your average human being, at which point there is no point factoring them into the equation because they're just that - outside of the norm.
Mate you can beat Katman around the head with common sense & reasoning, his rantings aren't fueled by this issue at all.

Your logic is so flawed Katman it's hard to know where to start!

The part I find most interesting is people largely see the world through their own eyes & think that if they see it that way then so does the vast majority of the planet & those that don't are just "that percentage of odd one's out".

Well Katman, you have been bangin on about this issue & others similar for as long as ive been a member on this site & not once do you maturely debate, reason & genuinely attempt to sway people to your way of thinking, its all a bit marshal & no art & sadly lacking any sane reasoning other than your own misguided delusional rantings about how the next biker is going to "cop it" from an irate motorist. Based on what? Exactly? Next you'll tell us you have stats to back this view :wacko:

ps: I do agree taking out a mirror is the wrong thing to do, doesn't mean it wouldn't happen & obviously doesn't mean it fuels cagers to rage at the next biker lol

[Katman]

Can you please explain what triggered your post?



The thread was started simply as the result of reading all too often on here, how many motorcyclists seem to have the opinion that the answer to the problem is "Take his fuckin' wing mirror off".

(Bear in mind too, that the majority of times that wing mirrors are accidentally damaged are the fault over an over zealous lane splitter and not the fault of the driver).

It concerns me that (even if as Ixion reckons 9 times out of 10 it's only empty posturing) new riders might well read it and start to think that it is acceptable.

If it were to become a far more common practice it would only result in the further escalation of animosity between car drivers and motorcyclists. If the odds were in our favour then I probably wouldn't be so concerned. Sadly, they're not.

I have seen a similar situation in London where the animosity between Black Cab drivers and couriers led to the not uncommon practice of cab drivers removing their fuel caps and going round a roundabout spilling diesel simply to catch out unsuspecting couriers.

[kiwifruit]

I have seen a similar situation in London where the animosity between Black Cab drivers and couriers led to the not uncommon practice of cab drivers removing their fuel caps and going round a roundabout spilling diesel simply to catch out unsuspecting couriers.

It'll never happen here (tm)

[CookMySock]

It concerns me that (even if as Ixion reckons 9 times out of 10 it's only empty posturing) new riders might well read it and start to think that it is acceptable.Like yourself, other readers are capable of making up their own mind from they read on a forum on the internet, and aren't all total sheep.


If it were to become a far more common practice it would only result in the further escalation of animosity between car drivers and motorcyclists. If the odds were in our favour then I probably wouldn't be so concerned. Sadly, they're not.In one <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy">mouthful</a>, you have started with an "IF" which you present as a result of what (seemingly no-brain) new riders might think, and progressed onto projecting it onto them on the basis of your own fears.


I have seen a similar situation in London where the animosity between Black Cab drivers and couriers lead to the not uncommon practice of the cab drivers removing their fuel caps and going round a roundabout spilling diesel simply to catch out unsuspecting couriers.It isn't similar at all, because it doesn't happen here except inside your head (plus perhaps one real life example if we are lucky.) It is an example of a circular projection being used as firm evidence to support some "fact" that is not a fact at all.

The only way out of this trap is to confront the thing that you fear, which you cannot, since the problem is not of your creation - it's every one elses'.(sic)

Steve

[Maki]

The current system seems to be all about catching speeders and punishing them - no effort made to educate or improve the drivers that may end up killing someone.

Makes me wonder why I haven't been caught and punished yet... :whistle:

[Maha]

Would the 'removing of wing mirrors'-'kicking in doors' take place while riding or at the very next set of lights?

[Maki]

Would the 'removing of wing mirrors'-'kicking in doors' take place while riding or at the very next set of lights?

When riding if you have mad skillz. At the next set of lights if you are a clutz.

[Maha]

When riding if you have mad skillz. At the next set of lights if you are a clutz.

You would come off second best while riding surely?
At the next stop...if you haven't thought of a better way controll your childish anger by then, perhaps you need to rethink why you ride a bike in the first place. I have heard of times when this sort thing does happen, dont agree with it but, in the heat of the moment?
Surely you must do damage to yourself by attacking a car with either your fist or foot?

Wheres the self controll people??

[tigertim20]

You would come off second best while riding surely?

If your bikes mirrors are the folding type, you can follow to a set of lights, wait a few cars behind, fold your right mirror in, and at the green, take off, with your right leg locked nice and straight (like one of them joust-pole-thingeemawhoowhatsits) and take a mirror off on the way past as you accelerate. A very dangerous practice, but you get away quickly. I have done this, I certainly am not 'proud' that I did it, but to this day feel absolutely justified, 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other


The thread was started simply as the result of reading all too often on here, how many motorcyclists seem to have the opinion that the answer to the problem is "Take his fuckin' wing mirror off".

My interpretation of this comment being made is that 99% of the time, it is a toungue in cheek way of supporting the person the comment is made to eg ahh ya shoulda taken the cunts mirror off = a tounge in cheek way of saying, bugger mat, poor you, yeah that sucks.

(Bear in mind too, that the majority of times that wing mirrors are accidentally damaged are the fault over an over zealous lane splitter and not the fault of the driver).

Ummm, if you yourself are saying that 9 times out of ten, the occurance is the result of a genuine, unintentional accident, then why this whole thread?

It concerns me that (even if as Ixion reckons 9 times out of 10 it's only empty posturing) new riders might well read it and start to think that it is acceptable.

I think people are able to make their own decisions, we live our lives according to our own values, we dont all do things just cos someone else did, I have to agree with DB's post on this

If it were to become a far more common practice it would only result in the further escalation of animosity between car drivers and motorcyclists. If the odds were in our favour then I probably wouldn't be so concerned. Sadly, they're not.

with all of the many bad practices displayed commonly by cars busses trucks trikes and bikes, I dont realy see its gonna make any difference. There will always be road rage from time to time, people swear and shake their fist, then forget about it the next day. I got hit on my old bike in a head on, some asian slut in a cage ran a red, I was lucky not to die.
that doesnt mean that I now hate all asain drivers, or silver BMW's or traffic lights, it simply means that I am now even more aware of all those things, WITHOUT being prejudiced about them.




What about the option to voluntarily go to an advanced driving course and have your points wiped if you pass? You know, some sort of reward for making an effort to improve your driving!

Fuckin fantastic idea I reckon!

[Swoop]

You would come off second best while riding surely?
Nope. NOT recommended for new riders though.

Surely you must do damage to yourself by attacking a car with either your fist or foot?
Nope.

[Katman]

Ummm, if you yourself are saying that 9 times out of ten, the occurance is the result of a genuine, unintentional accident, then why this whole thread?

Where did I say that?

Back to Comprehension 101 for you.

[tigertim20]

Where did I say that?

Back to Comprehension 101 for you.

Here, I will show you, using a similar amount of self righteous pedantic sarcasm and arrogance that you used earlier here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1129248005&postcount=98




(Bear in mind too, that the majority of times that wing mirrors are accidentally damaged are the fault over an over zealous lane splitter and not the fault of the driver).


You have clearly incinuated here that the majority of ocaisions where motorcyclists cause damage to another vehicle's mirrors, is during the execution of a lane splitting/filtering manouver. Now clearly. if as you have said, the motorcyclist is simply trying to pass, then an accidental clip on a mirror is jst that, accidental. You havent said 'when a motorcyclist goes past, and puts his foot out to kick the mirror for fun', you have clearly suggested that the rider has not focused as much on being carefull with their manouver as they should have, and the result was an accidental and unintentional touch to the vehicle's mirror. You are defining here, that a damage to a mirror is more often the result of a genuine mistake by a rider, and not the end result of a cage doing something dumb, and the rider retaliating. :girlfight:

Perhaps you should have worded your thread better, and posed the question, 'what could we as riders do better in these circumstances' instead of having a tanty about people who 'allegedly' kick mirrors? in doing so you would have likely encouraged a more suportive response where people genuinely attempted to find alternatives rather than the going on 10 page shitfight that you have now created

[Katman]

You have clearly incinuated here that the majority of ocaisions where motorcyclists cause damage to another vehicle's mirrors.........



That's right Tim.

But do you understand the concept of 'majority'? 6 times out of 10 is still a majority. Nowhere did I say that 9 times out of 10 was it purely accidental.

And even those 6 times out of 10 that it might be accidental it is still the result of inconsiderate riding and therefore subject to much the same chance of seriously fucking off the car driver.

Are you starting to understand now Tim?

[tigertim20]

And how exactly is smashing off someone's wing mirror going to reduce the number of irate drivers?

acts of anger (such as smashing mirrors) is not about reducing the number of irate drivers on the road, its about making drivers more aware in the first place.


It requires nothing more than an outstretched upturned hand in a "What the fuck?" manner or pointing to your eyes indicating that they should use theirs.

Anything more is just perpetuating the Neanderthal Biker image that is doing us nothing but harm.

um, ok, so a car sees you (or doesnt) and doesnt give a fuck, cuts you off, and nearly (or doeas) cause you a serious injury. if we assume that he didnt see you in the first place, he isnt going to see you after, and and thus isnt going to see your finger gestures anyway. If he did see you and did it anyway, he clearly doesnt give a flying fuck eother way anyway, so again a little hand gesture will do nothing.

I am not condoning smashing mirrors, but I AM saying that when a person suffers a consequence like damage to their car, they are more likely to consider what actions of theirs contributed to the incident in the first place, certainly more so than when a rider who they dont see anyway makes some silly hand gestures.

[cs363]

I am not condoning smashing mirrors, but I AM saying that when a person suffers a consequence like damage to their car, they are more likely to consider what actions of theirs contributed to the incident in the first place, certainly more so than when a rider who they dont see anyway makes some silly hand gestures.

With all due respect, the likely effect of having the mirror smashed off your car is far more likely to be anger and if unchecked (as per the mirror smasher) there is a very real likelihood of an escalation of a minor traffic incident into a major road rage incident as has been witnessed recently in Auckland where a guy actually got killed.

Lashing out in anger is never a good look as far as I am concerned, it just shows a lack of maturity and control.

[tigertim20]

That's right Tim.

But do you understand the concept of 'majority'? 6 times out of 10 is still a majority. Nowhere did I say that 9 times out of 10 was it purely accidental.

And even those 6 times out of 10 that it might be accidental it is still the result of inconsiderate riding and therefore subject to much the same chance of seriously fucking off the car driver.

Are you starting to understand now Tim?

To be honest KM, I am having trouble understanding, as your argument seems to change from post to post, it is a little hard to argue you down, when even you dont seem to know what you are trying to say.

Now you are saying even if the majority are accidents, that there is no difference between an accident and an act of anger? if you accidentally caused damage Im sure that you, as the outstanding citizen of such a high moral caliber that you promote yourself to be on here, would see to it that you repaired it as quickly as possible if there was damage. I would.
on the other hand if you cause damage intentionally, you are gonna get the fuck outta there ASAP.
Difference is intentional acts = road rage, andger, violence blah blah blah
accident = person at fault saying fuck, Im sorry, here allow me to remedy this, and the recipient of the damage leaving pleased that their faith in humanity remains intact for another day.

Anyway point is KM, decide which of your multiple personalities is trying to argue here, and once you have done that maybe we can clarify exactly wht it is that you are trying to say so we can produce some good arguments?

[Katman]

I am not condoning smashing mirrors, but I AM saying that when a person suffers a consequence like damage to their car, they are more likely to consider what actions of theirs contributed to the incident in the first place, certainly more so than when a rider who they dont see anyway makes some silly hand gestures.

And what if nothing that the car driver has done has contributed to the damage?

[Katman]

accident = person at fault saying fuck, Im sorry, here allow me to remedy this, and the recipient of the damage leaving pleased that their faith in humanity remains intact for another day.



And if you seriously believe that that is how most of these unintentional contacts are resolved then you're living in La La Land. They usually end with the motorcyclist lanesplitting away faster in the hope that the car driver hasn't got their number plate.

What are you then left with?






That's right - a fucked off car driver with a new found dislike for motorcyclists.

[tigertim20]

With all due respect, the likely effect of having the mirror smashed off your car is far more likely to be anger and if unchecked (as per the mirror smasher) there is a very real likelihood of an escalation of a minor traffic incident into a major road rage incident as has been witnessed recently in Auckland where a guy actually got killed.

Lashing out in anger is never a good look as far as I am concerned, it just shows a lack of maturity and control.

Agree, it wll fuck people off, but if you do nothing they will keep doing as they like, I am only saying that I can understand the twisted logic of retaliating. Not condone, but understand.

I tend to agree with most of what Ixion said earlier, and like he, I do not have the answer either. I just think that if KM has gone to all the trouble of making this thread, he would have either had a realistic alternative/solution, or would have asking for solution ideas, rather than just condemming people for it.

[Katman]

I just think that if KM has gone to all the trouble of making this thread,

Don't worry, it really wasn't any trouble at all.

[tigertim20]

And what if nothing that the car driver has done has contributed to the damage?

then in that case it is a simple example of normal road rage, the same that happens between cars abd cars, cars and trucks, busses and 4wD etc.


And if you seriously believe that that is how most of these unintentional contacts are resolved then you're living in La La Land. They usually end with the motorcyclist lanesplitting away faster in the hope that the car driver hasn't got their number plate.
What are you then left with?
That's right - a fucked off car driver with a new found dislike for motorcyclists.

sigh, I was simply pointing out that there is a difference between an accident, and a person that intentionally causes damage. And most people know the difference when it happens.
I have on 3 occaisions had riders go past my car, and clip the mirror. I was a little anoyed. got to my destination, and the mirror was simply folded forward, no damage. I recognozed that it wasnt intentional, there was no damage, and realised that its possible the rider may have genuinely not noticed they had lightly clipped my mirror. No harm done. You are still assuming here that the rider, on all occaisions is aware they have tapped the mirror. Often they are not. That is a point of difference.

[cs363]

Agree, it wll fuck people off, but if you do nothing they will keep doing as they like, I am only saying that I can understand the twisted logic of retaliating. Not condone, but understand.

I tend to agree with most of what Ixion said earlier, and like he, I do not have the answer either. I just think that if KM has gone to all the trouble of making this thread, he would have either had a realistic alternative/solution, or would have asking for solution ideas, rather than just condemming people for it.

Retaliation is not twisted logic, it's actually instinctive as the natural way to express anger is to respond aggressively. Anger is a natural, adaptive response to threats; it inspires powerful, often aggressive, feelings and behaviours, which allow us to fight and to defend ourselves when we are attacked. A certain amount of anger, therefore, is necessary to our survival.

On the other hand, we can't physically lash out at every person or object that irritates or annoys us; laws, social norms, and common sense place limits on how far our anger can take us.

Unfortunately common sense is a bit of a misnomer as its not common at all, in fact it seems to me to be getting scarcer all the time!

I guess a lot of the problem goes back to our crap driver education and licensing system in this country, people are let loose on the roads with virtually no formal training and the attitude that its their right to drive, rather than something that is earned. Without any real benchmarks such as driver training tests to pass, everyone with a licence tends to believe that they can do no wrong. How often do you see someone pull out in front of you and then give you the fingers or similar when they are totally in the wrong? Or because theres a car parked on their side of the road they feel its perfectly OK to pull into your opposing lane, rather than give way - despite the fact that they could cause a head on crash? No wonder we have so many of fatal head on crashes in NZ with this kind of attitude so prevalent.

Most motorcyclists seem keener to learn to be better riders than car drivers appear to want to be better drivers, in fact for a huge amount of people a car is viewed as more of an appliance that enables them to get from A to B. I suppose that with motorcyclists the need to be safer on the roads is more readily apparent than to someone cocooned in their car with its crumple zones, anti-intrusion bars, air bags and so on.
We also have a passion for our mode of transport which whilst true of some car drivers they would certainly be in the minority.

I know that if I accidentally clipped a car mirror I would certainly stop and 'do the right thing' as that was how I was brought up, though (touch wood) in many years of riding I've never had it happen as I like to think I have a pretty good awareness of my bikes size and also my vulnerability so I wouldn't be tempted to squeeze through a gap I thought was marginal. These tales of motorcyclists tearing off into the distance after such an accident are discouraging and I can only guess that perhaps this is attributable to the lack of personal responsibility that seems to be pervading modern society.

Anyhow, I'm starting to ramble (it's the alcohol you know...) but these days I deal with road rage incidents in a much calmer manner than when I was younger, by believing in Karma.....and the fact that what goes around comes around. :)

[gatch]

"Take his fuckin' wing mirror off".

Fuck yeah, will do, but only cause you told me too. :)

[PrincessBandit]

then in that case it is a simple example of normal road rage, the same that happens between cars abd cars, cars and trucks, busses and 4wD etc.



sigh, I was simply pointing out that there is a difference between an accident, and a person that intentionally causes damage. And most people know the difference when it happens.
I have on 3 occaisions had riders go past my car, and clip the mirror. I was a little anoyed. got to my destination, and the mirror was simply folded forward, no damage. I recognozed that it wasnt intentional, there was no damage, and realised that its possible the rider may have genuinely not noticed they had lightly clipped my mirror. No harm done. You are still assuming here that the rider, on all occaisions is aware they have tapped the mirror. Often they are not. That is a point of difference.

Well if having your mirror clipped hasn't made you anything more than a little annoyed then I'd think you're probably either a saint or at least in a significant minority. Since you are a rider you may have a more understanding attitude towards these types of incident, but any driver who doesn't ride is less likely to be as forgiving. That doesn't mean they'll take out the next rider who crosses their path, but it won't engender any particular feelings of respect or courtesy.

Even though I ride I'd still be very hacked off to have a bike clip my mirror while lanesplitting, or a rider decide to "pay me back" for whatever the reason is by smashing my mirror off. A lot of car drivers really feel they have done nothing wrong when they piss off a motorcyclist and further damage to their vehicle isn't going to make them any more understanding.

As said previously, much of the damage inflicted on cars seems to be more to do with a pissed off rider making themself feel better rather than trying to "educate" in some twisted kind of way.

[sinned]

How do you smash a mirror? This is simple question for which there should be plenty of answers given the apparent frequency of said incidents. Can you really get a foot high enough to kick a mirror or is it a job for a fist? What happens to hand or foot if the mirror is well mounted?

Has anyone actually smashed a mirror or seen this happen?

[PrincessBandit]

Read a number of posts which specify armoured gloves as being particularly good for the job.....

[ducatilover]

Read a number of posts which specify armoured gloves as being particularly good for the job.....

They certainly are

[bogan]

I just think that if KM has gone to all the trouble of making this thread, he would have either had a realistic alternative/solution, or would have asking for solution ideas, rather than just condemming people for it.

There was some discussion on this about 6 pages ago, i myself even participated, then it all degenerated into this bitching :girlfight: nonsene.

Serious discusion, lols, or gtfo imo.

[bogan]

How do you smash a mirror? This is simple question for which there should be plenty of answers given the apparent frequency of said incidents. Can you really get a foot high enough to kick a mirror or is it a job for a fist? What happens to hand or foot if the mirror is well mounted?

Has anyone actually smashed a mirror or seen this happen?

ah, you are not thinking of the larger picture, why get the foot high enough when you can just tilt the whoile bike up enough (wheelstand), so the mirror is in easy reach. Failing that, just wallride his panels.

[Chrislost]

........and kicking in doors.

What is it that you actually think you're achieving?

Do you really think that the majority of drivers are going to think "Opps, poor motorcyclist - I'll look out for them next time".

Or do you think that perhaps they're more likely to think "Fuck you ya prick, I'll take out the next fucker on a motorcycle who passes me"?


I believe that most people who do it have come accross a dick who wants to stop you lanesplitting past.

THEN BAM this dick has no mirror...
You see, without a mirror they cant see us coming anymore...

[CookMySock]

I believe that most people who do it have come accross a dick who wants to stop you lanesplitting past.

THEN BAM this dick has no mirror...
You see, without a mirror they cant see us coming anymore...Fuck me, thats the best logic I have heard all day! It doesn't come any better than that!

Steve