Suzuki RGV 150 running rich?

[pyrocam]

I really dont know, Im still learning about my engine.

I was having some major engine issue's a while back
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=8875&highlight=woes

I had it booked into colemans, they overhauled it (I guess) and charged me $270 odd, replaced the spark plug and put some Motul in it.

except about a week since the service its started being a cow and persistantly shitting white smoke out, particularly at high RPM's. It seems a wee bit better once its warmed up a bit but still if im doing a bit of a sprint down a road and I check my rear view mirror ive left a rather embarrasing white cloud down the road behind me.

I think (im quite un-knowledgable) that its running too rich. from asking a few people and bug juice suggested that also.

can anyone point out a few things to check maybe? is the fuel mixture easily controlable? maybe I could fiddle with it and see if it works better one way or another.

cheers

[bugjuice]

I was suggesting more your oil/fuel mix was a little off, just smokey joe everywhere, didn't quite look like it was at it's best.. 2 smokers aren't my best, so wouldn't know for sure, but just looked like there was more oil going thru it than it needed.

If you've just got it back from Colemans tho, and they reckon it's ok, and you say you don't know a great deal on it, then be careful what you do, else it'll be a trip back to Colemans!
May be a fellow KBer could have a quick peek over it, but don't do anything unless you're sure, or at least know how to put it back!

[pyrocam]

I was suggesting more your oil/fuel mix was a little off, just <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=24&k=smokey%20joe" onmouseover="window.status='smokey joe'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">smokey joe</a> everywhere, didn't quite look like it was at it's best.. 2 smokers aren't my best, so wouldn't know for sure, but just looked like there was more oil going thru it than it needed.

If you've just got it back from Colemans tho, and they reckon it's ok, and you say you don't know a great deal on it, then be careful what you do, else it'll be a trip back to Colemans!
May be a fellow KBer could have a quick peek over it, but don't do anything unless you're sure, or at least know how to put it back!


*click* 2 smokers = 2 stroke.
I hope so. might see if colemans want to lend me a bike and have another look over it. I dont particularly want to be without one again.
ah well Ill check here tomorow . (yaya for daylight savings!)

[Ixion]

*click* 2 smokers = 2 stroke.
I hope so. might see if colemans want to lend me a bike and have another look over it. I dont particularly want to be without one again.
ah well Ill check here tomorow . (yaya for daylight savings!)

Do bear in mind that a two smoker *MUST* smoke. If it stops smoking, start worrying. However, the smoke should a light haze through to a mild plume. If you've got so much smoke you can't see through it, something is wrong.

If Colemans have adjusted the oil pump (being a 2stroke, it's a total loss oil system, it will burn the oil up with the petrol), I would suggest that you think *very* long and hard before meddling with the settings.

I suspect that when you ran it out of oil the first time you may have seized it, and it has subsequently "run itself back in"

The smoke may be due to a dud plug (as I think someone suggested).On a two smoker if it misfires the oil does'nt get scavenged from the crankcases. Then once the miss clears, there is excess oil in the mixture which burns itself off. Oil can also accumulate in the exhaust system.

Have you tried taking it down a suitable back road and hammering it good and hard. That works a treat for my T500, clears it all out nicely. But, at all costs *DO* make sure that you keep the oil tank topped up. Check it every time yoiu get petrol.

/me likes two strokes. Two strokes good.

[Ixion]

cant be the plug because colemans replaced that, and they burnt off the oil in the exhaust also.

Im not sure how fast people mean when they tell me to 'hammer' it
technically Im not meant to do more than 70 but I took it onto the northwestern a week ago and had it going 90k in 6th and I think it was high 7000 RPM's and did that for 15 minutes odd but It didnt seem to do anything.
(remember its only a 150, I had it up to about 120 once and it felt like it was going to shit its engine on the road.

Well, your original problem was lack of power , nasty engine noise. I think that was engine seizure due to lack of oil. The engine seems to have survived that. So is the only problem now the smoke ? Because as I said, smoke is normal on a two stroke. Maybe Colemans set the oil pump a bit high because of the earlier seizure (I would do that myself), to make sure there was plenty of lube. If you can pull a reasonable top speed, and the only problem is smoke, I wouldn't worry about it.Smoke's normal on a stroker, stops the cops being able to see your number plate :niceone:

I'm not familiar with the RGV150 (and there seems little info on the web - maybe it has another name ?), but 7000 rpm doesn't seem much for a water cooled 2stroke. I see some guys claiming 160 -180 kph top speed, which sounds about right.

You have to punt a tuned stroker hard, they're not like 4strokes which you plod along. Keep the revs up and let the little demon howl. I see the RGV250 has an effective power band from only 8000 to 11000 rpm, which sounds about right for a tuned stroker. If you're not taking it over 7000 you may be plodding too much. Try keeping things up near the red line, sports strokers need to be buzzed, that's their charm. That may well keep the soke cleared .

Give it pepper !

[pyrocam]

cant be the plug because colemans replaced that, and they burnt off the oil in the exhaust also.

Im not sure how fast people mean when they tell me to 'hammer' it
technically Im not meant to do more than 70 but I took it onto the northwestern a week ago and had it going 90k in 6th and I think it was high 7000 RPM's and did that for 15 minutes odd but It didnt seem to do anything.
(remember its only a 150, I had it up to about 120 once and it felt like it was going to shit its engine on the road.

[bugjuice]

hammer it; to give it stick, to scream it's lungs out, to throttle the bugger, to wind it up, thrash the pants off it, dump yer fuel load, kick the crap out of it, clean it's throat, give it stick, open her up and make the bitch scream, to go full pelt, give it all she's got, don't back off till the fat bitch screams (dirrived from 'Fat Lady Sings').. and many more wonderful sayings thru the years...
get it? If you're affraid of doing over 70kph, firstly, well done, cos you must be one of the few who actually stick to their restrictions, and secondly, just don't do it in 6th then.. knock down to 5th, or 4th and just build up steam that way. It's not about going physically fast, it's about winding the motor up..

[F5 Dave]

Fabulous advice, presumably he’s a learner, tell him to go as fast as possible, neat idea. And achieving what?

Typically when a 2 stroke is rich it will produce a lot of spooge from un burnt oil. Excessive smoking:

Burn out the exhaust pipe. Colemans did it, but for how long are they going to spend. If the bike has been putted around on in the city for ages then this might be an issue.

Check the oil pump setting. Maybe it has been set incorrectly by accident or by a well meaning mechanic not wanting you to seize the bike.

Check the cable going to the pump is seating & not snagged on the adjuster being half open.

Check your gearbox oil. If it is losing any there could be a crankcase seal leaking.

Check water level, same thing.

Run a decent oil.

[MSTRS]

Sounds like you need to get a 4stroke

[F5 Dave]

Sure, tune the 4 stroke to deliver the performance of a 2 stroke & see how reliable it is. . .

Did some one say DRZ/CRF 250? & they are still not there yet.

[MSTRS]

Sure, tune the 4 stroke to deliver the performance of a 2 stroke & see how reliable it is. . .

Did some one say DRZ/CRF 250? & they are still not there yet.
Sure....IF the bike is needed for racing. Don't think this is the case here.

[pyrocam]

Fabulous advice, presumably he’s a learner, tell him to go as fast as possible, neat idea. And achieving what?

Typically when a 2 stroke is rich it will produce a lot of spooge from un burnt oil. Excessive smoking:

Burn out the exhaust pipe. Colemans did it, but for how long are they going to spend. If the bike has been putted around on in the city for ages then this might be an issue.

Check the oil pump setting. Maybe it has been set incorrectly by accident or by a well meaning mechanic not wanting you to seize the bike.

Check the cable going to the pump is seating & not snagged on the adjuster being half open.

Check your gearbox oil. If it is losing any there could be a crankcase seal leaking.

Check water level, same thing.

Run a decent oil.

Awesome, cheers. Dave

Well, Burning out the exhaust pipe : easy, I havent done it but it looks quite straight forward. I have an oxy/acetylene setup to do this. Ill do this as soon as I get my acetylene swapped cos I ran out last weekend :(


Check the cable going to the pump is seating & not snagged on the adjuster being half open.
surely this would have been looked at at colemans. It did run fine for a week remember then slowly has started spewing more smoke as it goes.

I would agree with the oil pump setting, but I dont know where it is/ what it looks like/ how much to adjust it etc. (I also cant find a service manual)

and re: the oil. im just finishing a bottle of whatever BP sells. generic stuff. I know I should use motul but at the rate the bike seems to go through it, It would be nearly the same price as my petrol. (ok thats an exageration) but it proberly is using the oil at a higher rate I think. but im not experienced enough yet to know these things.

Can anyone point out what the oil pump adjuster looks like ussually, where it is on the bike etc. I suspect its this little screw I just noticed on the engine.

[pyrocam]

Sounds like you need to get a 4stroke

Thanks for the info.
are you going to give me one? :p

[MSTRS]

Thanks for the info.
are you going to give me one? :p
Not if you are already bleeding, no.

[F5 Dave]

Can’t say too familiar with the 150s, but the cable should split, one to the carb, one to the pump. If the cable has been pulled it may be sitting up snagged on the adjuster. Basically as you twist the throttle the lever (under the cover) is pulled up allowing more oil to be pumped. Usually there is a line that when you pull the throttle to about ¾ it aligns the mark on the lever with one on the pumpbody. At this point there should be a mark on the carb slide that aligns with something & you adjust it so these 3 things are all in the right place.

Would have thought you’d get a good 4 or 5 fills to a oil tank, too long ago since I’ve had a road going 2 stroke. Any 150 owners comment?

[pyrocam]

Can’t say too familiar with the 150s, but the cable should split, one to the carb, one to the pump. If the cable has been pulled it may be sitting up snagged on the adjuster. Basically as you twist the throttle the lever (under the cover) is pulled up allowing more oil to be pumped. Usually there is a line that when you pull the throttle to about ¾ it aligns the mark on the lever with one on the pumpbody. At this point there should be a mark on the carb slide that aligns with something & you adjust it so these 3 things are all in the right place.

Would have thought you’d get a good 4 or 5 fills to a oil tank, too long ago since I’ve had a road going 2 stroke. Any 150 owners comment?

well as you may be aware its a bit hot out, so I went for a spin. gave it some good rpm's etc. by the time I got home it was only spilling white smoke when I got 1/2way into the red. well all that I could notice anyway.

I might need to get under there with the fairings off and have a look.

does a bike get stuffed it its on its side or upside down? (I dunno like a fridge does)

thanks for your help again dave

[Ixion]

Fabulous advice, presumably he’s a learner, tell him to go as fast as possible, neat idea. And achieving what?

Typically when a 2 stroke is rich it will produce a lot of spooge from un burnt oil. Excessive smoking:..
As someone said, hammer the engine- need not be illegal speeds. Just make the engine work for its living for a while. Hard as possible, not fast. Hammering a 50ccc would be unlikely to break any speed limit. (more fun doing ti at speed, though but , :yeah: )

IIRC, and IMHO, running rich on a stroker will produce smoke *IF* it's using premix or the type of injection system that injects the oil into the intake system.

But if the RGV150 uses the same sort of oil injection as older 'zukis, the oil isn't injected into the intake , it's piped direct to the bearings. Fuel settings are unrelated to oil flow, latter's based on throttle only. So I don't think that rich mixture on that sort of setup will produce smoke, except from the results of being so rich that it's misfiring (and burning the oil from the "missed" cycles once it does fire). Doesn't on mine, anyway. Admittedly, it's ancient.

[F5 Dave]

You’re talking 1970’s suzuki’s there. Oil on the 150 is feed into fuel flow. If a bike is 'fuel mixture rich' then you get incomplete combustion & lots of oil out the back of the pipe (some is inevitable) but that oil is unburnt hence not turned into smoke.

Hammering a 150 will produce quite high speeds, either way -to what effect? What are you “clearing out?”

The crank case will clear most anything in a few revs, so that only leaves the plug & the pipe. Far better to burn the pipe out with a gas torch or similar.

By the way if I haven't mentioned it earlier it is best with these bikes to check & clean the powervalve every so often. If they seize the valve & or wear/damage the rivet holding them together then it will drop into the piston. uess if it has been rebuilt recently this will have been done, ear mark it for a years time.

[pyrocam]

As someone said, hammer the engine- need not be illegal speeds. Just make the engine work for its living for a while. Hard as possible, not fast. Hammering a 50ccc would be unlikely to break any speed limit. (more fun doing ti at speed, though but , :yeah: )

IIRC, and IMHO, running rich on a stroker will produce smoke *IF* it's using premix or the type of injection system that injects the oil into the intake system.

But if the RGV150 uses the same sort of oil injection as older 'zukis, the oil isn't injected into the intake , it's piped direct to the bearings. Fuel settings are unrelated to oil flow, latter's based on throttle only. So I don't think that rich mixture on that sort of setup will produce smoke, except from the results of being so rich that it's misfiring (and burning the oil from the "missed" cycles once it does fire). Doesn't on mine, anyway. Admittedly, it's ancient.


Oh so confusing.

I think I understand. I also think that might explain something. a random 'donk' noise inbetween the normal engine 'dindindindindindin' (excuse my jargon if its a bit technical for ya :p)

would that be a misfire? wihch would make the oil burn. which would indicate a bad spark plug maybe? the plug was replaced at colemans. maybe its semi faulty?

[F5 Dave]

. . . If a bike is 'fuel mixture rich' then you get incomplete combustion & lots of oil out the back of the pipe (some is inevitable) but that oil is unburnt hence not turned into smoke. . .

The above is a red herring. If it is misfiring you will feeling it sputtering.

Bikes make many strange sounds.

[Ixion]

well as you may be aware its a bit hot out, so I went for a spin. gave it some good rpm's etc. by the time I got home it was only spilling white smoke when I got 1/2way into the red. well all that I could notice anyway.


So do you have a problem anymore ? If it's only noticeably smoking when you're in the red, I'd incline to say that all is well ?

[Ixion]

You’re talking 1970’s suzuki’s there. Oil on the 150 is feed into fuel flow. If a bike is 'fuel mixture rich' then you get incomplete combustion & lots of oil out the back of the pipe (some is inevitable) but that oil is unburnt hence not turned into smoke.


Yep, ancient. I stand corrected. And direct injection can produce smoke on a rich mixture. Lots of fuel means lots of oil, more than the airflow can handle after crankcase compression. So the excess sits around in the crankcases for a bit, then gets picked up when the throttle's opened..

But I'm not sure if OP has a problem any more. (original prob I still think was related to running out of oil).

[pyrocam]

So do you have a problem anymore ? If it's only noticeably smoking when you're in the red, I'd incline to say that all is well ?


yeah I would tend to agree with you there. still needs a bit more testing. I would bet that the 5 hours since I rode it last means that when I start it now (or when its cold) its smoky as hell.

hmm. maybe the hotter the engine the less oil is burnt at the lower temperatures therfore aiding in combustion and not crapping out the back? does that make sense?
Im not sure why a good gunning of the engine seems to make it work better. any ideas?


re the spluttering. its very minimal. If anyone mechanical is interested I can ride it near you

[Ixion]

yeah I would tend to agree with you there. still needs a bit more testing. I would bet that the 5 hours since I rode it last means that when I start it now (or when its cold) its smoky as hell.



Ah. Are you saying that it smokes after you start it up, then clears when you give it a good burn?

I have seen that problem in the past. Though I'm not sure if it would be applicable to your bike, since the oil injection system is different.

But, on early Yamaha's (and Suzukis, but Yammys seemed to be worse) sometimes the little valve in the oil pump would not seat properly. That meant that when the bike was sitting oil could drain by gravity from the oil tank into the crankcase and collect there (just slowly oozing and dripping through ) . When you start it of course there will be much smoke. My 180 Yamaha used to do that. If it had sat over a few days I used to pull the crankcase drain plugs before starting it, otherwise the fire brigade would follow me around because of all the smoke (PT)

Happens (used to ) on four strokes also, those with dry sumps. Most Triumph (Meridian) owners will know the problem. The non return ball valves in the oil pump would leak slightly causing excess oil in the cases. The four stroke has a scavenge pump to clear it, but on a two stroke it just has to burn away.

Reiterating, not saying this is the case with your problem, or that it is even possible with the engine you have, but might be worth getting checked out. If it is the problem it's cheap and simple to fix.

[pyrocam]

Ah. Are you saying that it smokes after you start it up, then clears when you give it a good burn?

I have seen that problem in the past. Though I'm not sure if it would be applicable to your bike, since the oil injection system is different.

But, on early Yamaha's (and Suzukis, but Yammys seemed to be worse) sometimes the little valve in the oil pump would not seat properly. That meant that when the bike was sitting oil could drain by gravity from the oil tank into the crankcase and collect there (just slowly oozing and dripping through ) . When you start it of course there will be much smoke. My 180 Yamaha used to do that. If it had sat over a few days I used to pull the crankcase drain plugs before starting it, otherwise the fire brigade would follow me around because of all the smoke (PT)

Happens (used to ) on four strokes also, those with dry sumps. Most Triumph (Meridian) owners will know the problem. The non return ball valves in the oil pump would leak slightly causing excess oil in the cases. The four stroke has a scavenge pump to clear it, but on a two stroke it just has to burn away.

Reiterating, not saying this is the case with your problem, or that it is even possible with the engine you have, but might be worth getting checked out. If it is the problem it's cheap and simple to fix.

hey I think you might be onto it there. that sounds exactly right. after burning it up at lunch it was much better going home. even felt more powerfull. If I were to leave it the way it is and just give it a good work out when it starts smoking again will I do much permanent damage you think or will it be fine burning it off.

oh, and curiously. on a 150cc, if im going 100k's in the highest gear, what kind of RPM's would be expected. they seem quite high when I do it and the smoke is 'really' bad when I do so.

[k14]

Just a quick thing you said about oil. Definately run the best you can get, motul or shell advance etc. They are worth it and will mean that the engine lasts alot longer and could save alot of pain, especially if you get a engine sieze and bin it. You don't want that happening.

[pyrocam]

thanks again for your help guys!

If it helps at all I recorded my bike.
1. on the right hand side
2. on the exhaust
3. on the left hand side

they arent the best quality but you can definatly hear the intermitancies

http://www.pyrocam.com/bike/v001.wav
http://www.pyrocam.com/bike/v002.wav
http://www.pyrocam.com/bike/v003.wav

cheers

[MSTRS]

thanks again for your help guys!

If it helps at all I recorded my bike.
1. on the right hand side
2. on the exhaust
3. on the left hand side

they arent the best quality but you can definatly hear the intermitancies

http://www.pyrocam.com/bike/v001.wav
http://www.pyrocam.com/bike/v002.wav
http://www.pyrocam.com/bike/v003.wav

cheers
Sounds like a normal 2smoker to me

[pyrocam]

Sounds like a normal 2smoker to me

Oh okies then. thats cool.

I think I might just leave it. just hune it when its smokey. :yeah: