Ohlins fork cartridge demo, you tube [Archive]

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Robert Taylor

17th June 2009, 12:41

Cajun

17th June 2009, 12:45

very nice video Robert, very informative

steveyb

17th June 2009, 13:36

Yes, very beautiful, exceptionally well put together with all parts perfectly proportioned and tuned.

Not bad cartridges either............:innocent:

Tony.OK

17th June 2009, 14:52

Robert you like those suspension bits way too much..................not even a sneaky peak over your shoulder all through that video hahaa.

Very interesting vid though:yes:

erik

17th June 2009, 18:29

The top out spring increases the overall spring rate near full extension, not lessens it. The steeper rate makes the force in the springs reduce faster as the as the fork is extended.

Shaun P

17th June 2009, 18:39

Yeah well technicals aside they feel much 'minter' than std especially under brakes, and are easy to do spring/oil level changes

Yep bring on more vids!

GSVR

17th June 2009, 18:42

AllanB

17th June 2009, 18:48

Good job - make more :sunny:

Robert Taylor

17th June 2009, 19:11

The top out spring increases the overall spring rate near full extension, not lessens it. The steeper rate makes the force in the springs reduce faster as the as the fork is extended.

Youd better discuss that with Ohlins....

Robert Taylor

17th June 2009, 19:37

Is the guy Michael Hill? When he was at school the teachers said he would never amount to anything.

Are these the big piston shocks everyone says are so much better?

How many animals lost their lives to make that coat?

You going to be at the track on Friday Dr Taylor?

Yeah thats probably true. Doing what Im doing is not a path to untold riches but sometimes its ok to work with the beautiful people!

We removed a set of BPF internals this week to fit a set of cartridges. Its notable that in WSBK and MotoGP the BPF equipped bikes are not a resounding success. Or to be more fair they are not a big leap that everyone has to have.

Candidly I can see merit in some of the mentality with that design BUT there is a very real downside with the production version, the rebound adjusters also significantly affect compression flow as it cross talks, and the effect is likely much moreso than in a conventional cartridge fork. That is a very real negative, especially for those that already struggle to understand cause and effect of clicker adjustments. So everytime you do a reasonably significant rebound change you have to compensate with a compression change. It appears that the ''window'' of setting where it works best ( and that may be working really well ) is in fact quite narrow. If you like Ill bring one of these BPF assemblies to Manfield, its quite interesting.

Paul Thede from Race Tech has no axe to grind with allegiances to suspension manufacturers, he will pull any design apart, analyse and make improvements. I have an e-mail from him about these BPF forks thats very interesting. I will tell you that his comments were diplomatic but in no way complimentary. I tend to favour the comments of engineers than those from the pr world.

For my money ( settings aside ) I like the 30mm cartridges in the new R1. The increase in size gives the benefit of increased piston swept volume for more instant damping response. But one leg is compression only and one is rebound only, as the single pistons ( no base vlaves required )perform only one function there is no pressure balance problem in flow reversal. As they are checkplated a clicker adjustment on one side has no effect on the other. Its reassuring to know that if you are going to adjust your rebound it will have absloutely no effect on compression. That I believe is the future and it could be married to the BPF design.

Yes we will be there Friday, Saturday and Sunday, hopefully it will be t shirt weather???!!!

Wingnut

17th June 2009, 20:18

Robert you like those suspension bits way too much..................not even a sneaky peak over your shoulder all through that video hahaa.

Na he had a wee peak alright - (2.51 min) She is a bit of a distraction but yet an attraction all wrapped in one.

Yea thanks for that Robert. Interesting indeed. Plenty of $$$$ though I would imagine??

erik

17th June 2009, 20:26

Youd better discuss that with Ohlins....

It's a small mistake, easy to make when trying to explain stuff on video/to an audience.

There's a bit of stuff about top out springs here: http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/05fork.htm

Robert Taylor

17th June 2009, 20:45

It's a small mistake, easy to make when trying to explain stuff on video/to an audience.

There's a bit of stuff about top out springs here: http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/05fork.htm

Ohlins have made no mistake with the intent of that top out spring. Indeed we have done a lot of testing with various rates and engagement lengths and the effects are very interesting. Different rates and lengths will require a varying amount of main spring preload and I think that is where confusion possibly lies.

KS34

17th June 2009, 20:52

Great job Robert, more videos would be very useful. I am staggered at the time and information you give away, the knighthood can't be too far off :rockon:

cowpoos

17th June 2009, 21:01

Presented here is a demo of the layout, inner workings and advantages of Ohlins FGK front fork cartridges. This same You-Tube video has found its way onto overseas forums especially in the States and has recieved a lot of hits. I cannot comment whether that has been mainly from the technical content or Sandras presence in the background! This video just ''happened'' and was very ad libbed but perhaps there is reason to carry through with more.
If readers would like more suspension related informative You-Tube videos we may investigate being able to oblige further. All sensible ( ! )comments would be appreciated.
errrr....ummmm....ahhhhh.....erm....aaaAAAHHHaaaa. ..were a few of the interesting words I heard ;)

but in all seriousness my opinion probabally does not matter, but here it is anyway... Top Job Bob!!!

erik

17th June 2009, 21:35

Ohlins have made no mistake with the intent of that top out spring. Indeed we have done a lot of testing with various rates and engagement lengths and the effects are very interesting. Different rates and lengths will require a varying amount of main spring preload and I think that is where confusion possibly lies.

I'm sure Ohlins have got it right, I'm just saying you're incorrect when you said that the top out spring lessens the effective spring rate.
The first graph from the previous link I posted:
<img src="http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/images/content/motorcycle/springforces2.gif">
The spring rate is equal to the slope of the line and you can see the slope in the bit where the top out spring is effective is steeper than the slope after the top out spring (for both the blue line showing the long top out spring and red line showing the short top out spring). If the force in the top out spring alone was graphed, it would have to be drawn below the x-axis since it acts against the main spring. The line for the blue top out spring would slope up and hit the x-axis at position 0 where it would stop (since the suspension is compressed enough to be off the top out spring).

Pumba

17th June 2009, 21:38

What a great vid, would love to see more

Robert Taylor

17th June 2009, 22:23

I'm sure Ohlins have got it right, I'm just saying you're incorrect when you said that the top out spring lessens the effective spring rate.
The first graph from the previous link I posted:

The spring rate is equal to the slope of the line and you can see the slope in the bit where the top out spring is effective is steeper than the slope after the top out spring (for both the blue line showing the long top out spring and red line showing the short top out spring). If the force in the top out spring alone was graphed, it would have to be drawn below the x-axis since it acts against the main spring. The line for the blue top out spring would slope up and hit the x-axis at position 0 where it would stop (since the suspension is compressed enough to be off the top out spring).

Lets put it another way, it allows more preload ( compressed spring force energy is higher at top of stroke ) and counteracts a negative by-product of that preload. Also if we fit firmer springs we counter-balance that with firmer top out springs. I will try and find some Ohlins literature on that subject but it will take a bit of digging.

Robert Taylor

17th June 2009, 22:26

I'm sure Ohlins have got it right, I'm just saying you're incorrect when you said that the top out spring lessens the effective spring rate.
The first graph from the previous link I posted:

The spring rate is equal to the slope of the line and you can see the slope in the bit where the top out spring is effective is steeper than the slope after the top out spring (for both the blue line showing the long top out spring and red line showing the short top out spring). If the force in the top out spring alone was graphed, it would have to be drawn below the x-axis since it acts against the main spring. The line for the blue top out spring would slope up and hit the x-axis at position 0 where it would stop (since the suspension is compressed enough to be off the top out spring).

Actually I have just twigged the mistake, the word rate should not have been in that text, it should have been spring force.

Squiggles

17th June 2009, 22:47

Interesting watch, yes please to more...

But one request, can we have someone like this (http://www.xmx.co.nz/gallery.php) in the background next time? :lol: Surely that'll help the sales ;)

Hidalgo

17th June 2009, 22:57

Both are stunning :love:

Ozzy27

17th June 2009, 23:07

I'm sure Ohlins have got it right, I'm just saying you're incorrect when you said that the top out spring lessens the effective spring rate.
The first graph from the previous link I posted:

The spring rate is equal to the slope of the line and you can see the slope in the bit where the top out spring is effective is steeper than the slope after the top out spring (for both the blue line showing the long top out spring and red line showing the short top out spring). If the force in the top out spring alone was graphed, it would have to be drawn below the x-axis since it acts against the main spring. The line for the blue top out spring would slope up and hit the x-axis at position 0 where it would stop (since the suspension is compressed enough to be off the top out spring).

Yes erik you are correct that the rate of change per mm is greater where the top out spring is engaged. But the actual force required to compress the fork to the same displacment is less than if the top out spring was not fitted thus giving the effect of a greater displacment for the equal amount of force. (sudo softer action) Which helps a lot with side grip while leant over in a corner.:shit:
You would really need to graph with and without top out spring to get the full understanding.

t3mp0r4ry nzr

18th June 2009, 09:29

nice tools and crafty product placement!
very informative. Well done:yes:

Sparky Bills

18th June 2009, 09:46

Great idea Robert!
Keep em coming.

See you at the track:scooter:

Robert Taylor

18th June 2009, 09:49

Yes erik you are correct that the rate of change per mm is greater where the top out spring is engaged. But the actual force required to compress the fork to the same displacment is less than if the top out spring was not fitted thus giving the effect of a greater displacment for the equal amount of force. (sudo softer action) Which helps a lot with side grip while leant over in a corner.:shit:
You would really need to graph with and without top out spring to get the full understanding.

Thanks Chris for clarifying. When you change the rate of the top out ( or the main ) springs that alters the preload requirement and therefore as you say the force required to achieve the same displacement, and therefore also ride height. Which is also juggling around with trapped air spring compression ratio. The physics on paper are interesting but in the end event you have a box of toys and you test them.
Does anyone want to purchase any of our top out spring options?

Robert Taylor

18th June 2009, 09:52

Interesting watch, yes please to more...

But one request, can we have someone like this (http://www.xmx.co.nz/gallery.php) in the background next time? :lol: Surely that'll help the sales ;)

Ill work on that, but I thought it was my sultry voice that was the big hit!!!!

sinfull

18th June 2009, 10:28

Interesting watch, yes please to more...

But one request, can we have someone like this (http://www.xmx.co.nz/gallery.php) in the background next time? :lol: Surely that'll help the sales ;)One of two things here !! You either aint seen Sandra change into her leathers or you are gay ?

Squiggles

18th June 2009, 18:56

One of two things here !! You either aint seen Sandra change into her leathers or you are gay ?

I've seen her but a fur coat worn as such isnt nearly as appealing! :lol:

Edit: Perhaps imagination improves with age

sinfull

18th June 2009, 22:37

I've seen her but a fur coat worn as such isnt nearly as appealing! :lol:

Edit: Perhaps imagination improves with age
I guess it would if you remain a pimply faced hard done by perve aye !

skypig

18th June 2009, 23:20

Are the MX ones similar? Available for YZFs , do you know?

Robert Taylor

19th June 2009, 06:30

Are the MX ones similar? Available for YZFs , do you know?

Yes in stock, winners of National MX champs, 125 junior, 125 senior, 450.

Shaun

19th June 2009, 07:29

Who is Sandra, and does she ride?

hayd3n

19th June 2009, 16:28

would would you do for 1995 yzf 600r forks??

Robert Taylor

22nd June 2009, 18:08

would would you do for 1995 yzf 600r forks??

Emulators and springs, in stock. PM me for pricing.

SixPackBack

22nd June 2009, 18:15

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1129266847#post1129266847

:2thumbsup

Drew

23rd June 2009, 15:27

Who is Sandra, and does she ride?

Pretty sure she is the chick on the kinda used looking '09 CBR1000, that was at Taupo round 1.

Had Phill turning himself in knots trying to help her out all day.

Drew

23rd June 2009, 15:29

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1129266847#post1129266847

:2thumbsupShameless self promotion there.

cowpoos

23rd June 2009, 20:00

Pretty sure she is the chick on the kinda used looking '09 CBR1000, that was at Taupo round 1.

Had Phill turning himself in knots trying to help her out all day.
sandra stammova?

Drew

23rd June 2009, 22:21

sandra stammova?
Dunno, sounds right. Import chick, not so good english.

GSVR

25th June 2009, 08:05

...............We removed a set of BPF internals this week to fit a set of cartridges. Its notable that in WSBK and MotoGP the BPF equipped bikes are not a resounding success. Or to be more fair they are not a big leap that everyone has to have...................

..............If you like Ill bring one of these BPF assemblies to Manfield, its quite interesting...........

Thanks for the look at the Showa front fork internels. Interesting conversation also concerning your theory on power delivery and its effect on handling shame we couldn't get onto flat tracks and bikes with no suspension in more depth.

Both Hayden and Craig went under the old long track record according to Ray Whitlam. I have several ideas why and who held the previous record anyway. To me it looked like they were both just having a bit of fun. Nice move by Craig on the Sunday race flying past Haden on the left hander onto the short track. So who held the previous record on the full track? most recent meetings that spring to mind have been damp.

Please don't tell me it was suspension setup. Both their bikes seemed to be running great but many of those power stands looked to be for showmanship which is good for the sport IMO.

Shame about the offs at the end of the meeting. Delays meant many were on cold tyres and I think the track temp may have started to drop considerably by then too.

Shaun

25th June 2009, 10:38

Craigs bike was a noticeable improvement from Sat to Sunday, after the NEW Ohlins front end was fitted over night

johan

25th June 2009, 10:53

Craigs bike was a noticeable improvement from Sat to Sunday, after the NEW Ohlins front end was fitted over night

Wow, I didn't realise it was this hard core at club racing. (rebuilding front ends over night)

oldrider

25th June 2009, 11:04

I had to play that four times before I could concentrate on what Robert was saying!

The subject was very interesting, thank you Robert. :first:

Shaun

25th June 2009, 11:07

Wow, I didn't realise it was this hard core at club racing. (rebuilding front ends over night)

Craig and Heyden were there for fun and testing purposes mate. CKT- Robert and Dennis are the hard core couple here, they love to play and try to improve things all the time.

Club Racing, is all about testing and fun mate, get it soughted there, and move on to the TRI SERIES AND THE NATS

johan

25th June 2009, 11:14

Craig and Heyden were there for fun and testing purposes mate. CKT- Robert and Dennis are the hard core couple here, they love to play and try to improve things all the time.

Club Racing, is all about testing and fun mate, get it soughted there, and move on to the TRI SERIES AND THE NATS

It's very nice to have the national champs at the club scene. I'm sure it helps riders improve their skills by following them (for a few corners).

It's great to see CKT at every meeting as well. We all benefit from what they learn by working and testing with riders such as Craig.

Robert always does a courtesy visit when I'm at the track making sure every thing is ok. I'm very humbled by their dedication and generosity.

Shaun

25th June 2009, 11:56

It's very nice to have the national champs at the club scene. I'm sure it helps riders improve their skills by following them (for a few corners).

It's great to see CKT at every meeting as well. We all benefit from what they learn by working and testing with riders such as Craig.

Robert always does a courtesy visit when I'm at the track making sure every thing is ok. I'm very humbled by their dedication and generosity.

There are some that pretend, and others that do mate

Drew

25th June 2009, 16:18

There are some that pretend, and others that do mate

Which are you?:dodge:

Just kidding bro.