Licence Fraud

[Wolf]

Missed seeing it on TV but found this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10116765

Pretty nasty stuff - bad enough that the AA was giving away licences but now you can buy them from your friendly neighbourhood Triad (OK, an assumption on my part that if it's a criminal activity earning money in the Asian community, the Triads have got their greedy little meat-hooks into it)

[Motu]

Not too long ago there was a dairy in Mangere selling WoFs - the LTSA sent in a guy...there was the sign....WoF $30....he asked for one,paid his money and walked out with a new WoF for his car.How dumb can you get,they don't even know such things are illeagal,in their own country it's just how the system works.

[idb]

Surely no worse than the fraud the gummint pulled when they cancelled our 'lifetime' licences a few years back.

[Wolf]

Surely no worse than the fraud the gummint pulled when they cancelled our 'lifetime' licences a few years back.
But the gummint is allowed to defraud us - which is why they're so against other fraudsters ("demarcation" is the official term, it basically means "we don't want competition")

[Wolf]

they don't even know such things are illeagal,in their own country it's just how the system works.
Oh FFS, surely they know it's illegal - it can't be legal in their own country - general store owner deems vehicle to be safe without any tests or inspections? Yeah right. They're knowingly breaking the law - except here they can pull the "so sorry, don't understand, not know law, no speak english" crap that would not wash in their own country.

[James Deuce]

But the gummint is allowed to defraud us - which is why they're so against other fraudsters ("demarcation" is the official term, it basically means "we don't want competition")
You're Terry Pratchett masquerading as a mental case living in Hamilton, aren't you?

[Eddieb]

You're Terry Pratchett masquerading as a mental case living in Hamilton, aren't you?

You don't know how close you are there Jim.

[outlawtorn]

This is the kinda thing that happens in South africa all the time, you can buy drivers licenses, passports, vehicle registrations etc etc. My father in law tried to renew a vehicle license (almost like a wof) in SA for me a couple of weeks ago and they told him only I can do it even though I am here in NZ, but he was allowed to completely re-register the car without so much as a signature from me. Go figure.

[Wolf]

You're Terry Pratchett masquerading as a mental case living in Hamilton, aren't you?
:killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme :killingme

[Lias]

You don't know how close you are there Jim.

I think the real Pratchett is older and balder, but I agree, scarily close.

[Wolf]

You don't know how close you are there Jim.
I assume you are referring to the second half of the comment...

[strayjuliet]

You're Terry Pratchett masquerading as a mental case living in Hamilton, aren't you?

He aint Terry pratchett, but he does have a wicked sence of humour and hes just read and reread far too many of terry's books, and besides if he was Terry Pratchett where's all the money? and why do i have to buy his books why can't he just hand em over?

[SPman]

I think the real Pratchett is older and balder, but I agree, scarily close.
Well, the real Pratchett is certainly bald! - almost as bald as Jim!

[Skyryder]

Oh FFS, surely they know it's illegal - it can't be legal in their own country - general store owner deems vehicle to be safe without any tests or inspections? Yeah right. They're knowingly breaking the law - except here they can pull the "so sorry, don't understand, not know law, no speak english" crap that would not wash in their own country.

You got it. What has realy pissed me off with this licence scam is that they are prepared to put drivers out on the road and endanger the citizens of a country that gave them a second chance. If any of these arsholes have NZ citizenship I hope it is taken off them. Probably not possible. And what about those Asians who knowingly knew what they were doing when they paid up the $400 plus. Just watch the Government run from that one.

Skyryder

[thehollowmen]

You got it. What has realy pissed me off with this licence scam is that they are prepared to put drivers out on the road and endanger the citizens of a country that gave them a second chance. If any of these arsholes have NZ citizenship I hope it is taken off them. Probably not possible. And what about those Asians who knowingly knew what they were doing when they paid up the $400 plus. Just watch the Government run from that one.

Skyryder

Funny... does this sound like the CBTA course? *ducks*

lets list the points
Private driving school... check
Don't have to sit the full license test ... Check
Costs a couple of hundred dollars ... Check

Right I better post my letter off before the govt checks out that too!

[c4.]

hear, here :yeah:

[Stevo]

Funny... does this sound like the CBTA course? *ducks*

lets list the points
Private driving school... check
Don't have to sit the full license test ... Check
Costs a couple of hundred dollars ... Check

Right I better post my letter off before the govt checks out that too!
I sat the CBTA course and I think this is kind of unfair. I picked up a lot of good stuff out of it. THOUGH I do think two out of the four people doing it were lucky to pass.

I feel kinda sorry for Asians though. I (like many of us I would believe) am quick to bag them for their driving abilities. I curse them when I pass them cos often they drive like they are so shit scared when all they have to do is pull over in a considerate fashion but lack the confidence to do so safely. Unlike us they have not learnt to drive on their parents', cousins', mates' farms before they learn to ride or drive on the road like many NZers have.

Then in Mafia or Triad style these recently exposed Asians BUY licenses and give the "good" Asians (not all of them are illegal immigrants who buy licenses) a bad name yet again, so that next time "we" see an Asian we put them all in this same basket. "Where did ya buy your license from?". Therefore why I kinda feel sorry for some of them.

Are there any Asians on KB website? There must be, so anyway, hang in there fella or fellass, and remain positive. At least people cannot tell what race you are under your helmet, and you are a fellow biker!

Stevo

[scumdog]

Funny... does this sound like the CBTA course? *ducks*

lets list the points
Private driving school... check
Don't have to sit the full license test ... Check
Costs a couple of hundred dollars ... Check

Right I better post my letter off before the govt checks out that too!

You could add to that list:

"Find one of Lous' old workmates...check". :Pokey: :whistle:

[Lou Girardin]

You could add to that list:

"Find one of Lous' old workmates...check". :Pokey: :whistle:

Yeah, another ex-MOT guy selling licences, 1 or 2 even did it while they were cops.
But it is a few levels below gang banging teenage girls, rape, assault, stealing evidential drugs, drink driving or trying to get your girlfriend off a drink driving charge.
Were any of these guys your workmates? :shake:

PS I just heard that the guy's ex-MOT AND ex-Police.

[scumdog]

Yeah, another ex-MOT guy selling licences, 1 or 2 even did it while they were cops.
But it is a few levels below gang banging teenage girls, rape, assault, stealing evidential drugs, drink driving or trying to get your girlfriend off a drink driving charge.
Were any of these guys your workmates? :shake:

PS I just heard that the guy's ex-MOT AND ex-Police.

Ooooh! touch-eeee!!!!

Good points but those guys haven't handed out a "Licence to Kill" to any incompetent that wanted one. :Pokey:

I guess the offending party was an "ernie" from your comments?

[Blakamin]

Then in Mafia or Triad style these recently exposed Asians BUY licenses and give the "good" Asians (not all of them are illegal immigrants who buy licenses) a bad name yet again, so that next time "we" see an Asian we put them all in this same basket. "Where did ya buy your license from?". Therefore why I kinda feel sorry for some of them.

Stevo
shit... they coulda just got one from a weet-bix packet like me :whistle: :msn-wink:

[Aitch]

Is that generally speaking NZ is pretty free of corruption and graft.
But a small number of (mainly) asian immigrants is bringing the asian custom of backhanders and bukshee here, and that annoys me enormously! Send the buggers back I say!

[SPman]

Good points but those guys haven't handed out a "Licence to Kill" to any incompetent that wanted one. :Pokey:


What! They're getting licences to go faster than 100 kph now! Where can I buy 1?

[Stevo]

PS I just heard that the guy's ex-MOT AND ex-Police.
That's only cos they combined the two about twelve years ago and MOT officers became cops overnight. Is that not correct?

[thehollowmen]

I sat the CBTA course and I think this is kind of unfair. I picked up a lot of good stuff out of it. THOUGH I do think two out of the four people doing it were lucky to pass.
<SNIP>
Stevo

I sat it too, learnt a lot.. but when it came to my ride I wondered at the end of it how I'd passed.

Kinda felt bad because I felt like I'd payed my way to a quick full...

[saiko]

Surely no worse than the fraud the gummint pulled when they cancelled our 'lifetime' licences a few years back.

Yeah I'm still pissed off about that :shake:

[Redstar]

Is that generally speaking NZ is pretty free of corruption and graft.
But a small number of (mainly) asian immigrants is bringing the asian custom of backhanders and bukshee here, and that annoys me enormously! Send the buggers back I say!Umm its a natural reaction and we all have some kind of prejudice I'm no exception but I did live in Japan for two years and mixed with every asian culture through our company and I have to say that we in corporate life are just as corrupt but more under cover about it.
have you ever offered cash to a builder? cashie jobs? if a bike mechanic offered to do some moonlighting for you would you stand on your principles? we have some good asian immigrants on this site met two last week how do they feel right now? but I understand what you say and you are free to say it.I'm an immigrant a pom and I dont think Im better than an asian would you like me to go too?

[Sniper]

Hmmmm, sort of gets you a bit annoyed when you have taken your car in for its warrent and they tell you to get it fixed for the total amount of $X and then you learnt you could have saved time and money handing over $30 at your local dairy

[Wolf]

Hmmmm, sort of gets you a bit annoyed when you have taken your car in for its warrent and they tell you to get it fixed for the total amount of $X and then you learnt you could have saved time and money handing over $30 at your local dairy
"I'll have a pack of Winfield 25's, a Bic Flic and a Warrant of Fitness, please. Oh and could you book me in for a full licence, I suppose I should have one."

When I was younger you had to get to know which service stations were lax testers if you had a dodgy vehicle - it's not just the "Asians" that are into dodgy dealings, judging by the number of NZ Euro service station staff that passed seriously unwarrantable cars over the years.

[Motu]

"I'll have a pack of Winfield 25's, a Bic Flic and a Warrant of Fitness, please. Oh and could you book me in for a full licence, I suppose I should have one."

When I was younger you had to get to know which service stations were lax testers if you had a dodgy vehicle - it's not just the "Asians" that are into dodgy dealings, judging by the number of NZ Euro service station staff that passed seriously unwarrantable cars over the years.

Back in the good old days it was often the lube bay attendant who did the WoFs,the lube bay attendant was hardly ever a mechanic,and if he was then he was the one who couldn't earn his keep in the workshop.One garage I used to go to the the owner sent his wife out to do the WoFs because he was too busy doing real work.The ''WoF book'' was about the size of the TV Guide and was only read in times of extreme boredom.

Back when I was running a workshop sole charge it was hard to get 8 hrs booked out for my days work,booking in work,answering phones,ordering parts,going out to pick up parts,making up accounts,the countless interuptions in my day.So I would stack up some WoFs and tyres,then at some stage power into them,in this way I was able to charge out 9 hrs of labour for my day...that's bloody good going for one guy.Couldn't of done it without the WoFs.

[madboy]

Three points -

1 - I agree that this license thing is a bloody shocker, but I disagree that it should fall on the asian "community", rather the sector of the asian community that was involved. Of course, we know that's bloody optimistic and most asians will now be tarred (in the short term) by this shocker.

2 - How many insurance claims are made when your car was broken into and you just happened to claim another 20 or so CDs, plus that ski jacket and video camera that were on the back seat (and currently reside in your wardrobe). For some reason many people think nicking a pack of chewing gum from the dairy is theft, but embellishing an insurance claim is not.

3 - I did the CBTA. Yes, the instructor did put a lot of effort in to those people who required more attention than others, and yes there was some generosity involved in my opinion. Yes, I learned a lot too. But overall I think the standard of the people on my course was high enough to warrant them attaining their licenses.

[Marmoot]

4. What makes fake license deserve more debate than few hundred unlicensed drivers we see everyday?

5. What makes those AA employees worse than speeding ACC staffs or corrupt police officers or MPs snoozing during Parliamentary meets? (clue: all of them are similar in not-doing-their-job-they-are-paid-to-do)

At least, if I understand it correctly, those $400 license are properly entered into database (just did not have practical test done) and thus if something happens the offender can be traced....probably ironically a slight better than unlicensed driver eh?

ah well, don't mind me....just a random thoughts...I'd better go back to my porn surfing and stop wasting bandwidth

:shifty:

[idb]

I'm on dial-up.
My porn surfing pretty much uses all of my available band-width.
It's either KB or porn...porn or KB....
I can't always decide. I need to see more photos in your profiles people!

[James Deuce]

4. What makes fake license deserve more debate than few hundred unlicensed drivers we see everyday?

They are less likely to be picked up as being inappropriately trained to drive a motor vehicle if they have a "valid" license. Most unlicensed drivers were once licensed and have driven for years, not NEVER as some of these people were alleged to have.


5. What makes those AA employees worse than speeding ACC staffs or corrupt police officers or MPs snoozing during Parliamentary meets? (clue: all of them are similar in not-doing-their-job-they-are-paid-to-do)
:shifty:

I resent the implication that NZ has anything like the level of corruption in the NZ Police Force that has been proven to exist in MOST other countries. Independent research into levels of corruption in different countries always place NZ near the top of the list of least corrupt bureacracies. I assume that you have cultural baggage that you leads you to that assumption?

That MP snoozing had probably pulled a week of all nighters. I know most people assume that politicians are feckless slackers, but I doubt that people on this site would put up with the punishing schedule that they keep as a matter of course.

[thehollowmen]

I didn't mean to open a can of worms about the CBTA.. was just taking the piss.

I did learn from it, but I don't know if I learnt enough: In a hairy situation I could still be a danger to myself and / or others. I will gain more experiance.

And at that price, it is a 'those who can afford it can get their full" option... should the price be taken down to try and let more of the KBs do it? What about group rates?

Motorcycle club down here is getting group rates for the basic skills course because they've got a lot of newbies interested...

[Marmoot]

I resent the implication that NZ has anything like the level of corruption in the NZ Police Force that has been proven to exist in MOST other countries. Independent research into levels of corruption in different countries always place NZ near the top of the list of least corrupt bureacracies.

Good point, Jim2, BUT:

I was NOT talking about levels. I was merely pointing out that even though NZ is the so-called 3rd uncorrupt nation, there is corruption in every levels regardless.

The one just dragged into court for high-profile rape case, weren't they police? What about the one used excessive force and beat a teenager out in petrol station forecourt, wasn't he police? Or the so-called "sick police culture" that was exposed, etc etc.

I don't mean to be unfair (sorry spud, etc). But we have to acknowledge that corruption is everywhere, proven by these blacksheeps. Only by acknowledging that coruption is there then we can think about fighting and preventing it.
Denial and wrapping ourselves in a silk cotton ball will simply shut our eyes while the society gets more corrupt.

P.S.
It is actually good that these license fraud gets exposed so that they can be eradicated in root level. I am just confused on why similar cases are not exposed and warranted crackdown hard enough (unlicensed driver, etc)

[James Deuce]

Good point, Jim2, BUT:

Or the so-called "sick police culture" that was exposed, etc etc.

I don't mean to be unfair (sorry spud, etc). But we have to acknowledge that corruption is everywhere, proven by these blacksheeps. Only by acknowledging that coruption is there then we can think about fighting and preventing it.
Denial and wrapping ourselves in a silk cotton ball will simply shut our eyes while the society gets more corrupt.



You'e talking crap. You are expressing an opinion that is formed entirely on the picture presented by a media with an agenda to use the Police as a medium to discredit certain Government policies.

It is not everywhere. It is not endemic. You are talking about a few, a very few individuals, who are alleged to behaved in a certain way or committed a crime. They are now committed to a disciplinary process or to a judicial one. NZ cops, as a general rule, do not quietly fold the $20 bill you passed them to avoid a breathalyser test at a checkpoint into their wallet.

There is no denial here. There are obviously measures in place that are detecting "corruption" within the Police force. As for the culture being sick, by current PC standards it probably is. I don't have much truck with PC bollocks, or someone retrospectively deciding that the Police maltreated them 20 or 30 years ago, when the behaviour exhibited by the Cop was within the normal parameters of behaviour in regard to the macro-culture of NZ.

If you think NZ is corrupt, try bribing a NZ Customs Service officer at a port of entry. You may want to bring some KY jelly with you, because they sure as hell aren't going to use any when they cavity search you, then put you on a flight back to where you came from.

[RDJ]

I resent the implication that NZ has anything like the level of corruption in the NZ Police Force that has been proven to exist in MOST other countries. Independent research into levels of corruption in different countries always place NZ near the top of the list of least corrupt bureacracies. I assume that you have cultural baggage that you leads you to that assumption?

You're absolutely correct. Having worked across Asia - Indonesia, Philippines, Malaysia, Cambodia, Thailand, China, then Eastern Europe mainly Russia and the Trashcanistans, now Singapore - with the exception of Singapore and Finland (where IMO officialdom is as corruption free as NZ) in all other mentioned places corruption is not just endemic but flourishing.

(pulls on asbestos suit)

Hard to believe anything other than that the recent license fraud episodes demonstrate the import to NZ of unwanted overseas habits.

[Marmoot]

You'e talking crap. You are expressing an opinion that is formed entirely on the picture presented by a media with an agenda to use the Police as a medium to discredit certain Government policies.

It is not everywhere. It is not endemic. You are talking about a few, a very few individuals....

Never said anything about 'endemic' or 'majority' either there, jim2. I did indicate clearly I was talking about a few individuals. But nevertheless the corruption is there, regardless of what levels. Or are you trying to do whitewash by simply pointing the fact that New Zealand is 99% Corruption Free?

Remember that 95% fat free food actually contains 5% fat.

And if I'm talking crap, I think you'd better not read it, unless you have some crap-fetish building in you. The last time I checked NZ is still a free country? Or are we trying to import one more of those so-called 3rd world behaviour by introducing censorship on opinions?

[Krusti]

I can assure you that the NZ Police force is probably the least corrupt of any in the world. This licence deal was carried out by an EX cop. Maybe there is a reason why he is EX.

The one thing that is really hated in the NZ Police is any form of corruption and in my experiance is dealt with with a sledge hammer approach.

Just dont get me started on some other areas of NZ Policing.

The total lack of corruption here is one of the few things I am proud of regarding our Police Force.

[Ixion]

You're absolutely correct. Having worked across Asia - Indonesia, .. corruption is not just endemic but flourishing.

..

Yep. Cost me 50000 rupiah slipped to the immigration guy to get into Jakarta. Luckily I was told the deal by another traveller. No pay, you will get through. Eventually. After a hard time. Slip the vigourish and I was waved straight through.

Freaked a bit at first, I got confused about the currency and thought it was 50000 rupees (about $2500) But 50000 rupiah is only $50. I'm OK with that if that's how it works.

But later in Jakarta I had to go and get a visa for China at the Chinese Embassy. And was warned very strongly not to even *hint* at anything in the way of baksheesh.

Don't know though whether it is better to have officials on the take for the money, or those who are in it for the power trip it gives them (*Lots* of those in NZ).

And there's other sorts of corruption than used notes in a brown paper bag. Not so sure that we're really squeaky clean, just more sophisticted in how officials get their payback.

[James Deuce]

Never said anything about 'endemic' or 'majority' either there, jim2. I did indicate clearly I was talking about a few individuals. But nevertheless the corruption is there, regardless of what levels. Or are you trying to do whitewash by simply pointing the fact that New Zealand is 99% Corruption Free?

Remember that 95% fat free food actually contains 5% fat.

And if I'm talking crap, I think you'd better not read it, unless you have some crap-fetish building in you. The last time I checked NZ is still a free country? Or are we trying to import one more of those so-called 3rd world behaviour by introducing censorship on opinions?

Free speech means the ability to call what some else says, "crap." Censorship is not letting someone spout the crap in the first place.

You did not, at any point, clearly state that you were singling individuals within the NZ Police force out. You made a broad sweeping statement that said the NZ Police force was corrupt, based on very limited, unreferenced evidence. You then, in the tradition of every statistician, concluded that corruption was clearly a major problem in NZ. It is not.

[Marmoot]

You made a broad sweeping statement that said the NZ Police force was corrupt, based on very limited, unreferenced evidence. You then, in the tradition of every statistician, concluded that corruption was clearly a major problem in NZ. It is not.

Correction, according to the initial post it was "...than speeding ACC staffs or corrupt police officers...", which in essence pointed to officers instead of the whole force. I never said corruption was a major problem in NZ either; perhaps this was a conclusion made from wrong interpretation of my original posting by yourself?

In any case, I do believe corruption warrants utmost attention and, as krusti has said, deserve a sledgehammer approach. I came from a country where corruption was rampant, and I tell you it would be sad if NZ becomes like that. But I strongly believe denial of corruption will only hide the real problem, until it is too late to repair. I am simply hoping that other cases of problems get dealt with similar approach as the one they are having with the license fraud. And what is crap about that?

[HDTboy]

i wonder if i can buy a full license so i don't have to have this blue one any more and can ride a bigger bike :)

[N4CR]

i wonder if i can buy a full license so i don't have to have this blue one any more and can ride a bigger bike :)

Lmao same here!
... I think that makes 2 now so we should start a printing run.

Keen anyone?

[Krusti]

Was in at Pak N Save the other day and the check out girl asked if I had any id for my cheque. I told her "No my wifes photocopying my licence so I can get $400"

Made her look for a second

Ya had to be there

[Ixion]

..
If you think NZ is corrupt, try bribing a NZ Customs Service officer at a port of entry. You may want to bring some KY jelly with you, because they sure as hell aren't going to use any when they cavity search you, then put you on a flight back to where you came from.

Actually, that is itself corruption. There are other sorts of corruption beside bribery. The abuse of official powers for personal vengenence or to inflict "punishment" not sanctioned by the courts (which is exactly what you are saying would happen here ) is corruption. A State authority which would consider the misuse of official powers as normal could be said to be a corrupt one. If there were no legitmate gronds for the cavity search before the attenpted bribe , then there can be none afterward.

[James Deuce]

Actually, that is itself corruption. There are other sorts of corruption beside bribery. The abuse of official powers for personal vengenence or to inflict "punishment" not sanctioned by the courts (which is exactly what you are saying would happen here ) is corruption. A State authority which would consider the misuse of official powers as normal could be said to be a corrupt one. If there were no legitmate gronds for the cavity search before the attenpted bribe , then there can be none afterward.

Yes I know. I was just being a bastard.

Allow me a LITTLE poetic license! ;)

[Wolf]

If there were no legitmate gronds for the cavity search before the attenpted bribe , then there can be none afterward.
Well, If I were a Customs Official and someone tried bribing me, I'd surmise they had something to hide and I would be duty-bound to go hunting for contraband...

*evil grin*

[Pixie]

Ooooh! touch-eeee!!!!

Good points but those guys haven't handed out a "Licence to Kill" to any incompetent that wanted one. :Pokey:

I guess the offending party was an "ernie" from your comments?
Speaking of "licences to kill"How many days per year of fire-arms training do cops get these days? 3? 10? No wonder they put rounds through their feet with monotonous regularity.

[Pixie]

You got it. What has realy pissed me off with this licence scam is that they are prepared to put drivers out on the road and endanger the citizens of a country that gave them a second chance. If any of these arsholes have NZ citizenship I hope it is taken off them. Probably not possible. And what about those Asians who knowingly knew what they were doing when they paid up the $400 plus. Just watch the Government run from that one.

Skyryder
They still put such drivers on the road,even when they've passed :angry2: all the tests

[Pixie]

What! They're getting licences to go faster than 100 kph now! Where can I buy 1?
In Italy certain people (I saw a Sixty Minutes item on Lamborghini)such as factory test drivers do get "unlimited" licences.
They showed the Lambo passing a farm truck at over 250 km/h on a country road :banana:

[Pixie]

That's only cos they combined the two about twelve years ago and MOT officers became cops overnight. Is that not correct?
And they didn't have to have 50% of their brains removed upon joining :killingme :killingme :killingme :lol: :lol:

[Sniper]

Speaking of "licences to kill"How many days per year of fire-arms training do cops get these days? 3? 10? No wonder they put rounds through their feet with monotonous regularity.

When was the last time they did that and no they do an AQS and a shooting session quarterly

[Lou Girardin]

Ooooh! touch-eeee!!!!

Good points but those guys haven't handed out a "Licence to Kill" to any incompetent that wanted one. :Pokey:

I guess the offending party was an "ernie" from your comments?

What's an ernie?

[wkid_one]

He He he - this kinda reminds me of the sort of conversation you get in a Counterstrike game.....although slightly less intelligent...

[Lou Girardin]

Actually, that is itself corruption. There are other sorts of corruption beside bribery. The abuse of official powers for personal vengenence or to inflict "punishment" not sanctioned by the courts (which is exactly what you are saying would happen here ) is corruption. A State authority which would consider the misuse of official powers as normal could be said to be a corrupt one. If there were no legitmate gronds for the cavity search before the attenpted bribe , then there can be none afterward.

Very true, corruption can also be the politicising of a Police force.

[Ixion]

Very true, corruption can also be the politicising of a Police force.

Very much so. And that sophisticated corruption can be much more dangerous that a copper who takes a folded banknote. Ironically, in countries where cops and officials take bribes, this probably protects the people from political type corruption. Since the effects of the latter, despite orders from on high, can be negated by paying off the officers who must enforce the orders.

Thus it is that the relative incorruptability of the "coal face" ranks of our police and other services makes the corruption of the higher echelons so much more dangerous.

At the risk of having Godwin's Law quoted at me, I will point out that what made the Gestapo so dangerous was that they were *not* corrupt.

I am very certain that neither threat nor promise would persuade Mr Spudchuka or any of his collegues to deviate from their duty. I am less confidant of his Commissioner's resistance to Ministerial threats or persuasions.