Slow reacting indicators?

[jono035]

One of the things that has always bothered me about the GSX250F that I have is the fact that the indicators are really slow to react to the switches.

Basically whenever I flick the indicator switch in the direction I want to turn, it takes a good couple of seconds for them to come on, regardless of whether I'm holding the switch down at the time or just flicking it across...

Is this usual or should they come on instantly (like I'm used to in the cage)? The guy who I bought the bike off mentioned that the flasher unit had been replaced at some point with an aftermarket one so I'm going to have a poke around and find out what the model of it is.

If noone has any ideas I might just make up a replacement from a microcontroller and a couple of FETs that responds instantly, but it'd be a lot quicker to just fix...

[CookMySock]

The electronic flashers do their "off" cycle before they do their "on" cycle, also you might have a shonky flasher unit.

Pretty much there are only two types of flasher, the electromechanical one (heater element and bi-metallic strip) and the electronic one.

A picaxxe flasher would be cool. You could make it modulate the turn signals in some nasty eye-catching pattern, especially good if they are LEDs.

Steve

[crazyhorse]

Indicators - you use them???

I know guys who stick out their feet LOL :bash:

[The Pastor]

Take your switch block apart and clean it with elelctrial cleaner.

[jono035]

They're definitely electronic ones, flashed at the same rate with a bulb gone...

DB - not a big fan of PICs, I use AVRs mostly myself :yes: but could make some pretty cool strobe patterns and possibly stick an accelerometer on it to make them self cancel...

Of course, that's the 8lb hammer approach, I think fixing it would eat less time unless anyone else here wants a customisable indicator flasher...

The contacts appear fine because a very quick flick of the switch will set them going, but it still doesn't cut in for a couple of cycles, but I might try find a different microswitch to test em with nonetheless...

Think I answered my own question - the unit has something like 'Flash Wide' and 'MyFlasher' on the top... Although it says 12V 10Wx2 on top, so it probably doesn't like the 23W bulbs the guy had in it much, but taking one out doesn't fix anything so I guess it can stay that way...

[jono035]

Indicators - you use them???

I know guys who stick out their feet LOL :bash:

Must give that a try when I'm going slow and noone is watching :D

[The Pastor]

Open it up and see if its dusty as hell

[Robert Taylor]

One of the things that has always bothered me about the GSX250F that I have is the fact that the indicators are really slow to react to the switches.

Basically whenever I flick the indicator switch in the direction I want to turn, it takes a good couple of seconds for them to come on, regardless of whether I'm holding the switch down at the time or just flicking it across...

Is this usual or should they come on instantly (like I'm used to in the cage)? The guy who I bought the bike off mentioned that the flasher unit had been replaced at some point with an aftermarket one so I'm going to have a poke around and find out what the model of it is.

If noone has any ideas I might just make up a replacement from a microcontroller and a couple of FETs that responds instantly, but it'd be a lot quicker to just fix...

Aside from the usual issues of poor earths etc the fitted bulbs must match the stated wattage of the flasher relay. Otherwise the bi-metal inside it doesnt make and break at the correct frequency. For a warrant of fitness the flashers much have a frequency of between 60 - 120 flashes per minute.

[xwhatsit]

Open it up and see if its dusty as hell
It's nothing to do with the switch, he's saying when he flicks the switch there's a delay before they start flashing.

Do they flash at normal rate? I have an aftermarket electronic flasher on my 6V Cub... unfortunately it does the same thing. It also speeds up (until it just stays on constantly) when the bike revs too high.

I thought electronic flashers were a good idea (don't have to match bulb wattages exactly) but I'm starting to think they're a bit crap. Is there a good brand?

Otherwise... yeah... even something like a 555 timer driving a relay would do it. Only problem is voltage varies hugely on a bike, the normal little linear 5V voltage regulators (like the 78xx series) have a 2.0V dropout voltage... so you need at least 7V (which is no good for the Cub, I think). 12V system would be OK though I think -- maximum voltage is like 30V or something even for the 7805.

[mister.koz]

I think you are right in that its an electronic flasher unit, if it was a bi-metal one then changing the bulbs would change the rate.

Because its electronic its probably using a rc circuit or crystal oscilator to produce the flash (dunno which one would be more common)

Can you get the flasher case open? might be something in there thats adjustable? Variable cap or something?

I don't know how much of an effect it would make but how's your charge circuit and battery voltage? if the flasher uses a feed from the battery (rather than in series with the lights) it could be timing itself on the voltage?

Grabbing at straws :)

HTH

[The Pastor]

It's nothing to do with the switch, he's saying when he flicks the switch there's a delay before they start flashing.

Do they flash at normal rate? I have an aftermarket electronic flasher on my 6V Cub... unfortunately it does the same thing. It also speeds up (until it just stays on constantly) when the bike revs too high.

I thought electronic flashers were a good idea (don't have to match bulb wattages exactly) but I'm starting to think they're a bit crap. Is there a good brand?

Otherwise... yeah... even something like a 555 timer driving a relay would do it. Only problem is voltage varies hugely on a bike, the normal little linear 5V voltage regulators (like the 78xx series) have a 2.0V dropout voltage... so you need at least 7V (which is no good for the Cub, I think). 12V system would be OK though I think -- maximum voltage is like 30V or something even for the 7805.
well i had the same problem and i fixed it by cleaning my switch gear.....

[jono035]

Yeah, will give that a shot RM for sure...

It's definitely an electronic one, and the voltage shouldn't change the flash rate for anything that is decently made...

xwhatsit - it's pretty easy to find linear regulators that have dropout voltages around 300mV at up to 1.5A, failing that can always use a switch-mode supply... A 555 will run off pretty much anything too!

[xwhatsit]

xwhatsit - it's pretty easy to find linear regulators that have dropout voltages around 300mV at up to 1.5A, failing that can always use a switch-mode supply... A 555 will run off pretty much anything too!
You're right, I just looked up a data sheet, says they'll run 3V-15V. So, perfect. If it does the off-cycle first then just run it through an inverter :sunny:

[imdying]

Complete waste of time. There are literally millions of electronic flasher relays in service that have been doing so for over a decade. Reinventing the wheel in that respect would be as retarded as desiring drum brakes on a road bike.

[jono035]

Really? And when it'll take me about 10 minutes to write the code, I have a bunch of spare microcontrollers sitting around and can grab a couple of power-FETs from work for free and stick it all on veroboard in a $4 plastic enclosure, how exactly does that not make sense?

I admit it is a sledgehammer solution, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than buying a replacement flasher I'd guess, especially when I don't know for certain it's not going to do the same annoying thing...

Xwhatsit - You've gotta be careful in case that approach leaves your indicators on all the time ;)

It seems to spend longer than 1 flash off before it comes on to me, and when I was looking at my watch it takes around 2 seconds to come on, which is exacerbated by the fact that I don't trust that it is actually on and end up looking at the indicator light, which I'm pretty sure is a terrible idea...

[jono035]

I think you are right in that its an electronic flasher unit, if it was a bi-metal one then changing the bulbs would change the rate.

Because its electronic its probably using a rc circuit or crystal oscilator to produce the flash (dunno which one would be more common)

Can you get the flasher case open? might be something in there thats adjustable? Variable cap or something?

I don't know how much of an effect it would make but how's your charge circuit and battery voltage? if the flasher uses a feed from the battery (rather than in series with the lights) it could be timing itself on the voltage?

Grabbing at straws :)

HTH

Thanks for the ideas mister.koz, it's running at the correct speed, it's just that it takes 2s between me pressing the direction switch and the flashing starting. That would be a definite fix for incorrect flashing speed though. A cheaply made flasher that is using an RC oscillator would vary its timing with voltage, but any decent one should be running off a regulator for the timing portion. I think mine is probably of the extreme el-cheapo variety though...

[imdying]

Really? And when it'll take me about 10 minutes to write the code, I have a bunch of spare microcontrollers sitting around and can grab a couple of power-FETs from work for free and stick it all on veroboard in a $4 plastic enclosure, how exactly does that not make sense?Because you can buy a flasher unit off the shelf, not yet 8:30 on a Thursday night, so probably right now, that will do the job perfectly.

If you can't make a generic flasher unit work, on a circuit that is basically nothing but a light switch, a bulb, and a battery, what makes you think you'll ever get a home grown system running? :laugh:

/edit: I can't understand why you're even fucking about talking about it, all for a $12 part? btw, the last one I used was a Tridon LED04 (iirc), hope that helps.

[jono035]

My suspicion is the current one is working correctly, but it's just shit. The indicator light should go on as soon as possible after you've flicked the switch, not after 2 seconds. As I don't want to spend the time finding a flasher that works the way I think it should, I suggested that it could be a laugh building one.

And trust me, I design electronic things way more complicated than that for a living, I think an electronic flasher unit that works the way I think it should is well within my capabilities, thank you very much. ;)

[jono035]

Thanks for the info imdying, I'm assuming that it doesn't suffer from the same problem I'm describing? At $12 then yes, it would be a waste of time, I had guessed they would be more like $30.

[imdying]

Thanks for the info imdying, I'm assuming that it doesn't suffer from the same problem I'm describing? At $12 then yes, it would be a waste of time, I had guessed they would be more like $30.I think the first one I brought was closer to $30, but that was before I realised just how generic and boring they are (are wisened up and went to a trade shop).

/edit: No, they work like a charm. Although the Tridon one ticks, but then I can't hear it over the engine so not really worth mentioning.

[jono035]

Ticking is no concern, will see if I can find one that fits the same mounts as the existing one though, round thing with QC tabs on the base.

[The Pastor]

enough bullshit, was it dirty connections? take you 2 seconds to check.
http://cbr250.com/cbr250/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24970


check out what this noob said


For anyone having troubles with their indicators, try this first.

I originally thought it was the flasher relay because after searching around on the net the concensus was that it was a faulty relay causing the left indicator to take much longer to come on. But after cleaning the switch gear, they come on straight away. It really didn't take very long either. I think the hardest part is positioning the screw driver to take it off and put it on. If you have a 90deg screwdriver, it would be very quick. I was a bit intimidated and thought I would stuff it up, but seriously it was dead easy. The only dumbfounding part I came across (and this was because I decided to finally put new grips on at the same time), is to make sure the little lug in the bottom part of the switch gear, goes into the hole in your handlebars - otherwise like me you'll sit there staring at it trying to work out why it wont close properly.

So if this dumb shit can do it, anyone can.

Although its amusing someone as intelligent enough to design a flasher relay with his eyes shut cant do a 2 second check to see if its dirty connections!

[jono035]

The thing is buried behind the fairings and currently in a shed that has 1 pathetic light bulb and a button you have to keep pushed in to keep it going, so I haven't got to checking it yet, but found it amusing that 2 other people expressed a (slight) interest in a more elaborate solution.

Thanks for the advice and I will check that out tomorrow, when I can actually see it.

My experience with most engineers is that they will happily spend hours devising a sophisticated solution to a simple problem, simply for the amusement of it. I am guilty of this also.

I apologise for any annoyance caused.

[CookMySock]

I apologise for any annoyance caused.Don't, mate. Forget the non-electronics people who aren't going to "get" it. Well, not until they see your ultra-bright modulated LED indicators that stick out like dogs balls, and want to BUY one off you.

PM me if you want a beta tester. ;)

Steve

[Squiggles]

Complete waste of time. There are literally millions of electronic flasher relays in service that have been doing so for over a decade. Reinventing the wheel in that respect would be as retarded as desiring drum brakes on a road bike.

That was a brilliant wee dig :lol:

You should be able to get a replacement relay easily (and cheaply) as imdying said

[Korumba]

Top of your indicator fluid and she will be sweet.

[jono035]

enough bullshit, was it dirty connections? take you 2 seconds to check.

Pulled the switches completely apart, little bit of crap inside the housing but the contact race was clean, solder joints onto the switch look good. QC tabs and connectors on the flasher are clean with contacts that were still tight and solidly connected... had a bit of a poke around with the multimeter and things were metering down to the lead resistance...

Will take the flasher in to work tomorrow and stick it on a load bank/scope and see what it does...

[FROSTY]

Hey Jono before ya do--try fitting a lowwer wattage bulb anywhere. Id be interested to see what the result is.

[jono035]

Hey Jono before ya do--try fitting a lowwer wattage bulb anywhere. Id be interested to see what the result is.

I would if I had one!

It didn't make a difference only having a single bulb in but I'll check and see what it does at work when I hang a couple of different load resistors off it. Even with a single bulb in it is over its rating I believe...

Guess I could wire 2 bulbs in series but I really don't have that kind of motivation right now :D

[FROSTY]

LOL--I guess you're seeing where Im going with this then dude--the other thing i'd be interested to see is if you connect up a car battery to the bike battery if things change

[jono035]

LOL--I guess you're seeing where Im going with this then dude--the other thing i'd be interested to see is if you connect up a car battery to the bike battery if things change

Yep ;) Haven't noticed the headlight dipping when the indicators light and the battery seems to hold up strong under the headlights/cranking. Cranked happily for probably a minute or 2 without slowing when I first had the carbs to bits and was trying to start it with the hand-across-the-air-filter choke method...

[jono035]

Turns out it was replaced, but with a crap bi-metal one, not an electronic one. Even shorted it takes a couple of seconds to actuate from cold, but then stays blinking at a normal rate. Uses an external heating element in parallel with the contacts rather than one in series...

Got a new electronic one for $25 from an auto-electricians while I was grabbing some other stuff for my car. Will see what happens...

Figured out a simple bootstrap circuit for using a microcontroller and MOSFET in place of a 2-terminal flasher.... Tempted to make it now, just out of spite...

[CookMySock]

Turns out it was replaced, but with a crap bi-metal one, not an electronic one. Even shorted it takes a couple of seconds to actuate from cold, but then stays blinking at a normal rate. The bi-metal ones do a useful turn mostly. Only thing is they are load and voltage sensitive, they have odd failure modes and they fail quite regularly.


Figured out a simple bootstrap circuit for using a microcontroller and MOSFET in place of a 2-terminal flasher.... Tempted to make it now, just out of spite...circuit diagram?

Steve

[jono035]

The bi-metal ones do a useful turn mostly. Only thing is they are load and voltage sensitive, they have odd failure modes and they fail quite regularly.

circuit diagram?

Steve

Will throw one together tomorrow in Protel if you're interested. If you make the 2 terminals of the flasher your +v and ground, then your circuit is a diode forward conducting through to a 5v regulator which has a 100uF cap to ground. Running an AVR (one of the 8 pin tiny series would do it) off that supply at 1MHz off the internal oscillator will consume less than 1mA at 5V and will operate down to 1.8V so the micro will keep running for a good 4-5s off the charged capacitor depending on your code.

The micro can directly drive a logic-level N channel FET (found a couple of 5A capable ones for <$1 from digikey) to short the 2 terminals for the 'lamps on' portion of the cycle, then turn the FET off again for 'lamps off'... As long as you turn the lamps off for however long it takes to charge the cap (probably a ms or 2) every 5 seconds (depending on cap size) then you can keep the micro running and in control of the FET... If the voltage on the cap folds too far, then the voltage on the FET gate will go too low, it will turn off, allowing the bootstrap capacitor to recharge and the micro to run again.

With a bridge rectifier instead of the initial diode and a more careful selection of FET (JFET possibly) or a relay (latching possibly?) as the driving element then you could make the circuit completely non-polarised. There are tons of options for decreasing the current draw of those microcontrollers too.

Nothing new, it's just a bootstrap power supply from a high-side MOSFET driver really... I've pulled the can off the old one and might make up a circuit to fit inside just for a laugh... Could do a timer-based auto-turn off, I've got an accelerometer spare somewhere that I could fit too, turn the indicators off after a slow-down followed by a speed-up...

The other way to go is to do a minor re-wire and be able to drive the indicators independently, would give you the ability to flash them as hazard indicators...

[jono035]

Just threw this together, should give the idea of roughly what I was thinking.

Could also add a current sense resistor and amplifier to measure the load (for failed-bulb indication)

[CookMySock]

Good fun. Yeah it would be interesting to wire the indicators individually, especially if they were high-power chip LEDs. They would have to "flash" at the required rate for WOF, but it should be possible to pulse-modulate them much faster so they still looked "on" but had a real high-energy output. If you could "talk" to the controller with the indicator switch and select some options like a high-viz, or fog mode, that would be interesting. Also maybe it could automatically detect a day or night and adjust brightness accordingly.

Steve

[jono035]

The device that I'm working on at the moment is a switch-mode, dimmable, high-brightness LED controller for the HB leds in the 1W to >5W range... You can wire the switch directly up to the controller easily, ambient lighting sensing is easy enough to add as well... A button for a High-Viz or fog mode could be a good choice and would be a simple addition.

In terms of pulse-modulating them to have higher output, the human eye naturally integrates whatever light it sees anyway, so a light source that puts out 2 lumens 50% of the time will appear exactly as bright as a light source that puts out 1 lumen 100% of the time (assuming the flashing is fast enough that you don't notice it). Most of the LEDs can be over-driven safely providing you have adequate heatsinking, this could allow for a temporary 'boost' effect if required for situations where you want to be seen...

Wiring the indicators individually would be a major bonus, especially with LEDs as for high-bright LEDs you can't run them in parallel.

[CookMySock]

In terms of pulse-modulating them to have higher output, the human eye naturally integrates whatever light it sees anyway, so a light source that puts out 2 lumens 50% of the time will appear exactly as bright as a light source that puts out 1 lumen 100% of the time (assuming the flashing is fast enough that you don't notice it). Most of the LEDs can be over-driven safely providing you have adequate heatsinking, this could allow for a temporary 'boost' effect if required for situations where you want to be seen...I read somewhere you could pulse them hard for a short duration and end up with more light.

You could also pulse them VERY brightly in a really irritating fashion, so it was annoyingly fucking clear to cars that you were there. Not a nice thing to do, but hey everyone will see you.

Steve

[jono035]

Most high-bright LEDs can be run higher than their rated current. The reason for pulsing them would be so that they didn't overheat, so would be on the order of LED on really bright for a few seconds then off for a few seconds. They do a similar thing for using LEDs as camera flashes, run them at absolute max power for a very short time with no heatsinking, not giving them a chance to heat up.

With enough heatsinking capacity you can still run the LED at this higher-power indefinitely though. Would probably be perfectly fine running a HB LED at absolute max power for indicator use though...

The efficiency suffers a bit though, an extra 50% input power for an extra 20% light output for instance...

[bimotabob]

A good bike shop (and probably some not so good ones) will stock the common aftermarket relay/capacitor type for around $16.
This type is small and will do the more common 21-23 watt incandescent bulbs.
I can't remember the brand but they are worth it, often people go and buy genuine for plenty more when they don't have to.
Used to see them all the time.
They even had a wiring diagram on the box for those electrically challenged.

[jono035]

A good bike shop (and probably some not so good ones) will stock the common aftermarket relay/capacitor type for around $16.
This type is small and will do the more common 21-23 watt incandescent bulbs.
I can't remember the brand but they are worth it, often people go and buy genuine for plenty more when they don't have to.
Used to see them all the time.
They even had a wiring diagram on the box for those electrically challenged.

Yeah, thats what I ended up getting while at the local auto-electricians getting some other stuff looked at. Was a Bosch one, works well.